Improving Deadlift off the Floor

[Yanks]

I've just started recently switching to sumo deadlifts, I still plan to do a lot of conventional deadlifts. My weakness is definitely off the floor I try to work deficits on my conventional deadlift but have trouble maintaining a good back position it's hard for me to keep a neutral back on a regular deadlift. Are sumo deficits helpful or something used?

I've read that weakness off the floor can be from a weakness in the hamstrings. I tried barbell back extensions and they worked really good I adjusted the height accordingly to hit more hamstrings or back for separate sets.

What are your favorite exercises to improve deadlift off the floor for both conventional and sumo deadlifts? Also what are your favorite hamstring exercises, and glute exercises to help improve the deadlift?

Thanks

 

[lifted67]

I'm buddies with a power lifter who has been helping with my dead lift cues as I pull lower back dominate.

He states to keep the bar close to your shins, sit back before you start your pull, puff your chest up and try to keep the bar in line with your pits, don't let your ass come up when you start the lift, instead work on driving through your heels while straightening your legs out and driving your hips forward. Keep that bar close to the body throughout. Hope this helps.

 

[Yanks]

I'm buddies with a power lifter who has been helping with my dead lift cues as I pull lower back dominate.

He states to keep the bar close to your shins, sit back before you start your pull, puff your chest up and try to keep the bar in line with your pits, don't let your ass come up when you start the lift, instead work on driving through your heels while straightening your legs out and driving your hips forward. Keep that bar close to the body throughout. Hope this helps.

The driving through the heels part actually sounds helpful. I'm probably too far out front sometimes, and have trouble getting my hips through fast. I'm thinking focusing on driving through the heels is a good cue to help my hips get through faster.

 

[slggtstrength]

When I switched from conventional to sumo I really liked the queue of "spreading the floor" through your heels I found I was really able to get a lot more glute activation that way.

My set up goes as such:
1. Get stance set - I like a foot angle that has the bar on the inside of my knees
2. Lifting arms up, spreading the lats then flexing them into my front pockets. (I feel it shortens my ROM by just a little)
3. Big breathe into the belly, keep a vertical torso angle and "squat" down and grab bar with desired grip.
4. Roll the bar up to shins
5. Pull chest up and head back while pulling slack out of bar.
6. "Spread the floor" and squeeze glutes as hard as I can.


I also enjoy doing sumo stance anderson squats from pins that are slightly below my deadlift set up.

Also using a true deadlift bar does wonders for sumo. I get a lot more out of it pulling sumo than conventional.

 

[Yanks]

When I switched from conventional to sumo I really liked the queue of "spreading the floor" through your heels I found I was really able to get a lot more glute activation that way.

My set up goes as such:
1. Get stance set - I like a foot angle that has the bar on the inside of my knees
2. Lifting arms up, spreading the lats then flexing them into my front pockets. (I feel it shortens my ROM by just a little)
3. Big breathe into the belly, keep a vertical torso angle and "squat" down and grab bar with desired grip.
4. Roll the bar up to shins
5. Pull chest up and head back while pulling slack out of bar.
6. "Spread the floor" and squeeze glutes as hard as I can.


I also enjoy doing sumo stance anderson squats from pins that are slightly below my deadlift set up.

Also using a true deadlift bar does wonders for sumo. I get a lot more out of it pulling sumo than conventional.

So your foot angle is pretty outwards your hips are really open right? I've always heard about spreading the floor but I've forgotten to put all of the cues together.

I've never pulled with a deadlift bar only a stiff bar, I could imagine it def helping me a lot to get the bar moving.

 

[slggtstrength]

So your foot angle is pretty outwards your hips are really open right? I've always heard about spreading the floor but I've forgotten to put all of the cues together.

I've never pulled with a deadlift bar only a stiff bar, I could imagine it def helping me a lot to get the bar moving.

Mine are pretty outward yes, it does take some time to get used to as you feel unstable at the top sometimes. I like to imagine I am standing on two separate pieces of flooring or whatever and I am sliding them apart. A good shoe definitely comes into play for this as with a cheap shoe you might roll out to the side. Something with a metatarsal strap keeps you locked in.

As for that bar, yeah that little bit of slack helps the initial pull quite a bit for me.

 

[Brandaddy]

I'm buddies with a power lifter who has been helping with my dead lift cues as I pull lower back dominate.

He states to keep the bar close to your shins, sit back before you start your pull, puff your chest up and try to keep the bar in line with your pits, don't let your ass come up when you start the lift, instead work on driving through your heels while straightening your legs out and driving your hips forward. Keep that bar close to the body throughout. Hope this helps.

To further expand upon this, when you think of pushing with your heels. Actually envision driving your heels through the floor. Right before you start the lift, sit back into it and make sure your hips are a good ways below your shoulders, then engage your lats to take any slack out of the bar.

I used to be really slow off the floor and what helped me was some higher rep stuff. my 1rm was 495 at the time, so i usually did like 3 rep sets off 455 touch and go. Instead I started doing 8 rep sets of 405 and 6 rep sets of 425. Then I also stopped doing touch and go and did a complete 1 second pause on the bottom making sure to follow it down in a controlled manner. 6 weeks later I went from grinding 495 like crazy to ripping up 545 like it was nothing.

 

[PaulBlack]

My weakness is definitely off the floor I try to work deficits on my conventional deadlift but have trouble maintaining a good back position it's hard for me to keep a neutral back on a regular deadlift.

Okay...

I'm probably too far out front sometimes, and have trouble getting my hips through fast.

If this is happening, and compromising your back position (how tight you stay) and hips raise too fast, and bar drifts outward instead of straight up, then you might be losing power, wasting energy etc. off the floor right there.
Any vids?

The shortest bar path is straight up to lockout.

How much time have you put in on the deadlift?

I mean, I can tell you what worked for me as far as better/faster power from the floor, but it might not be the same mechanics or trouble spot for you.
Also, if you are using deficits and they are too high and get you out of your regular pulling style or mechanics, then I don't know how great the carryover might/ might not be!?

 

[blueline438]

slggtstrength has a good list of steps. But I personally do not like the last step. I like to picture myself pushing straight through the floor. Like I couldn't move the bar and I broke the floor.

 

[slggtstrength]

slggtstrength has a good list of steps. But I personally do not like the last step. I like to picture myself pushing straight through the floor. Like I couldn't move the bar and I broke the floor.

I have a pretty wide stance, so my shins aren't super vertical to the floor, so spreading it works for me. I gotta shorten the ROM as much as possible to make up for the T-Rex length arms off the floor. If you have a more moderate stance then focusing pushing straight through the floor will definitely work as well.

 

[lifted67]

https://youtu.be/sXDwbYB2e7U

This is probably the best form I've ever had on video lol... You see how my hams and glutes stay engaged and my spine stays in alignment.

 

[slggtstrength]

https://youtu.be/sXDwbYB2e7U

This is probably the best form I've ever had on video lol... You see how my hams and glutes stay engaged and my spine stays in alignment.

So no sumo on video? That would help more since that's what we are working on. (I think?)

Oops, idk why I thought you were the OP just now lol.

I say the OP posts a video. But I mean, sumo is never really fast feeling off the floor like conventional can be.

 

[Yanks]

Okay...



If this is happening, and compromising your back position (how tight you stay) and hips raise too fast, and bar drifts outward instead of straight up, then you might be losing power, wasting energy etc. off the floor right there.
Any vids?

The shortest bar path is straight up to lockout.

How much time have you put in on the deadlift?

I mean, I can tell you what worked for me as far as better/faster power from the floor, but it might not be the same mechanics or trouble spot for you.
Also, if you are using deficits and they are too high and get you out of your regular pulling style or mechanics, then I don't know how great the carryover might/ might not be!?

Yeah I'm thinking the carry over may not be so great. I'll take some videos tonight of my sumo and conventional. My deficits arent done particularly high just off a plate.

I've only been deadlifting for a little over 3 months 1x a week. It's weird my squat is pretty much on par if not higher than my deadlift. I've hit 405 squat, 405 sumo, and 400 conventional. Im thinking my optimal leverages are def for sumo I'm a lot bigger on my lower body than upper and have shorter arms. Just recently tried sumo, I did it only 1-2 times when I first started and could pull more weight that way but decided to do conventional to try and build up my strength. So the 405 sumo pull is off only training conventional really I just decided to try it the other day after forgetting about it.

Def would like to hear what's helped you. I did a bunch of barbell back extensions from two different heights other day to hit hamstrings glutes and lower back and they def seemed to have done a lot hopefully they helped.

 

[Yanks]

slggtstrength has a good list of steps. But I personally do not like the last step. I like to picture myself pushing straight through the floor. Like I couldn't move the bar and I broke the floor.

Yeah I hear Ed coan talking a lot about getting a good push and pull

 

[Yanks]

So no sumo on video? That would help more since that's what we are working on. (I think?)

Oops, idk why I thought you were the OP just now lol.

I say the OP posts a video. But I mean, sumo is never really fast feeling off the floor like conventional can be.

Yes we're working on sumo but conventional too I appreciate all advice because I will continue to do both. I think I'm gonna be pulling sumo when I do competitions and I know that it's typically a lot slower of a lift, but even my conventional I def have most of my troubles off the floor.

 

[jswain34]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V2lAm_QLRWU

 

[slggtstrength]

Yes we're working on sumo but conventional too I appreciate all advice because I will continue to do both. I think I'm gonna be pulling sumo when I do competitions and I know that it's typically a lot slower of a lift, but even my conventional I def have most of my troubles off the floor.

Yeah, it's always good to work on both. I try to keep them within 50-80lbs of each other. I will say for conventional I personally like a raised heel, I am just able to get more quad activation off the floor & front squats and SSB squats do wonders for me as well.

 

[slggtstrength]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V2lAm_QLRWU

And this, you listen to.

 

[Yanks]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V2lAm_QLRWU

Chris duffin is the man since you posted that I've just been watching a bunch of his videos.

 

[CJNator]

This isn't too helpful but don't switch up deadlifts, just stick to conventional deadlifts and improve your form. You need to get use to the conventional deadlift's motor pattern. Just make sure you don't get bad advice, I had pretty good lifters showing me how to deadlift.

 

[Yanks]

This isn't too helpful but don't switch up deadlifts, just stick to conventional deadlifts and improve your form. You need to get use to the conventional deadlift's motor pattern. Just make sure you don't get bad advice, I had pretty good lifters showing me how to deadlift.

Even though sumo is probably better for my body type??

 

[jswain34]

This isn't too helpful but don't switch up deadlifts, just stick to conventional deadlifts and improve your form. You need to get use to the conventional deadlift's motor pattern. Just make sure you don't get bad advice, I had pretty good lifters showing me how to deadlift.

Why shouldn't he try out sumo exactly? I think that is poor advice itself. Sumo deads are a great lift and have a place in anyones training. Imo, Even strongmen who cant use sumo in comps can benefit from working sumo in.

 

[jswain34]

I would advise alternating blocks of sumo and conventional pulling (i typically do 6-12 week blocks alternating). Obviously if you compete you're going to want to spend more time drilling your comp lift but overall narrow builds wide so your sumo still benefits from a better conventional pull.

 

[smith_69]

Why shouldn't he try out sumo exactly? I think that is poor advice itself. Sumo deads are a great lift and have a place in anyones training. Imo, Even strongmen who cant use sumo in comps can benefit from working sumo in.

I would advise alternating blocks of sumo and conventional pulling (i typically do 6-12 week blocks alternating). Obviously if you compete you're going to want to spend more time drilling your comp lift but overall narrow builds wide so your sumo still benefits from a better conventional pull.

i second this as well- with a variation of stances for sumo this can increase overall performance. You cant grow by only doing an exercise one way

 

[slggtstrength]

i second this as well- with a variation of stances for sumo this can increase overall performance. You cant grow by only doing an exercise one way

I third this.
There's no reason not to do both like stated. They both have their place. But if you compete yeah still the one you use to compete with.

 

[CJNator]

Well like I said to get better at a lift you must have the motor patterns down, I haven't switched up deadlifts and my form almost perfect at 405. https://vimeo.com/182627896

It's all about just getting your form better, body types are pseudoscience.

 

[slggtstrength]

Well like I said to get better at a lift you must have the motor patterns down, I haven't switched up deadlifts and my form almost perfect at 405. https://vimeo.com/182627896

It's all about just getting your form better, body types are pseudoscience.

So I shouldn't perform front squats anymore. I always knew that was stopping competition style squat from going up.

 

[CJNator]

He is having a hard time pulling from the floor with conventional deadlifts therefore he should do a different deadlift with different motor patterns? Where is the logic with that?

 

[jswain34]

Well like I said to get better at a lift you must have the motor patterns down, I haven't switched up deadlifts and my form almost perfect at 405. https://vimeo.com/182627896

It's all about just getting your form better, body types are pseudoscience.

Body types are pseudoscience? Lol what?! Anthropomorphic differences in people is not pseudoscience whatsoever lol. They dictate ones natural anatomical leverages - which predisposes people to being suited much better to a particular lift. He isnt talking endo/meso/ectomorph.

 

[slggtstrength]

He is having a hard time pulling from the floor with conventional deadlifts therefore he should do a different deadlift with different motor patterns? Where is the logic with that?

Because sumo is already stronger for him. Clearly it's a more ideal position.

 

[CJNator]

If he wants to improve his conventional deadlift off the floor he should either keep working on it or switch to deficit deadlifts. If he wants make his hamstrings stronger either lying hamstring curls or dead pull hyperextensions.

 

[CJNator]

Because sumo is already stronger for him. Clearly it's a more ideal position.

Because of less ROM therefore less muscle fiber recruitment, less fiber recruit wouldn't allow him to maximize his strength potential or hypertrophy.

 

[slggtstrength]

Because of less ROM therefore less muscle fiber recruitment.

 

[jswain34]

If he wants to improve his conventional deadlift off the floor he should either keep working on it or switch to deficit deadlifts. If he wants make his hamstrings stronger either lying hamstring curls or dead pull hyperextensions.

So lying hamstring curls are better than sumos for hamstring strength...good lord. If anything how bout some RDL/SLDL or good mornings?

Because of less ROM therefore less muscle fiber recruitment.

This is not true man, yes there is a shorter ROM, but that doesnt mean everyone can hands down lift more sumo than conventional. There are a **** pot full of people that are far stronger conventionally than in sumo. And less muscle fiber recruitment? So, my best sumo deadlift is 615 and my best conventional deadlift is 575 - by your logic, i had more muscle fiber recruitment on my 575 pull than my 615?

 

[CJNator]

View attachment 140156

Great post, your meme had too much info.

 

[slggtstrength]

Great post, your meme had too much info.

Thought I was dealing with a troll. Can't tell if serious.

 

[CJNator]

So lying hamstring curls are better than sumos for hamstring strength...good lord. If anything how bout some RDL/SLDL or good mornings?



This is not true man, yes there is a shorter ROM, but that doesnt mean everyone can hands down lift more sumo than conventional. There are a **** pot full of people that are far stronger conventionally than in sumo. And less muscle fiber recruitment? So, my best sumo deadlift is 615 and my best conventional deadlift is 575 - by your logic, i had more muscle fiber recruitment on my 575 pull than my 615?

Yes you did, how it is not logical? I use to bench 225 for 10 for wide grip bench and I now bench 225 for 7 rest pause reps. Close grip bench recruits more muscle fiber then wide grip but the long ROM doesn't allow you to be as strong.

 

[CJNator]

Thought I was dealing with a troll. Can't tell if serious.

You haven't even explain your stance logically so how about being some information to the table.

 

[jswain34]

In response to your original post OP: yes, deficits are a good movement to strengthen your deadlift off the floor. Use only 1-2" of a deficit and make sure you can keep your positioning/same as close to as identical as your floor pull as possible. A lot of folks will pull from a huge deficit and then it turns into a different lift - thats useless. Sumos are a great movement, but they arent what I'd go for if your end goal is just to increase your conventional pull. If you think sumo fits your body better (in general - short torso is "better" for conv, "monkey like" build with long appendages is "better" for sumo) then switch to sumo for a while and test it out.

My favorite ham/glute exercises are:
1. Conventional Deadlifts
2. Sumo deadlifts
3. Low bar Squats
4. RDL/SLDL
5. Good mornings to pins
6. Glute ham raises
7. Pull throughs
8. Laying hamstring curls

 

[jswain34]

Yes you did, how it is not logical? I use to bench 225 for 10 for wide grip bench and I now bench 225 for 7 rest pause reps. Close grip bench recruits more muscle fiber then wide grip but the long ROM doesn't allow you to be as strong.

If you're talking about total work then yes, rom comes into play. But more strength = increased motor unit recruitment.

 

[slggtstrength]

You haven't even explain your stance logically so how about being some information to the table.

Because there's no need for me to repeat what jswain is telling you.

Plus the OP did ask for help with both not picking one or the other. I've given him help on both.

 

[CJNator]

View attachment 140160

If you're talking about total work then yes, rom comes into play. But more strength = increased motor unit recruitment.

Yea exactly, increased motor unit recruitment = increase muscle fiber recruitment = strength. Longer ROM allows all this but in the long run.

 

[lifted67]

Yes we're working on sumo but conventional too I appreciate all advice because I will continue to do both. I think I'm gonna be pulling sumo when I do competitions and I know that it's typically a lot slower of a lift, but even my conventional I def have most of my troubles off the floor.

My bad bro I thought you wanted off the ground advice for conventional.

 

[dds]

One que i always have to tell myself when pulling sumo is to "protect my armpits"n which means pull the lates in tight and the bar stays in a good tight path for me....hope this helps

 

[Yanks]

If he wants to improve his conventional deadlift off the floor he should either keep working on it or switch to deficit deadlifts. If he wants make his hamstrings stronger either lying hamstring curls or dead pull hyperextensions.

Those are barbell on a 45 degrees back extension? I did those with 90 pound barbell last deadlift workout and it really have my hamstrings glutes and lower back a great pump and workout I think it'll help me next deadlift workout.

 

[Yanks]

My bad bro I thought you wanted off the ground advice for conventional.

No bro it's all good!! I want advice on both I'm trying to figure out which way is optimal for me to move the most weight. If it happens to be sumo I will still do conventional deadlifts, maybe from a deficit or for pauses, regular conventional as well. I literally have only done sumo 3 times ever I think lol so I pull 99% of the time conventional just my glutes and lower body build I think are a lot better for sumo.

On another note a lot of my people in my gym pull more conventional than sumo and I met a guy tonight who pulls more sumo than conventional so I think it's just different for different people

 

[lifted67]

I feel grip wise conventional is better for me, but I definitely use less lower back on sumo.

 

[PaulBlack]

I've only been deadlifting for a little over 3 months 1x a week. It's weird my squat is pretty much on par if not higher than my deadlift. I've hit 405 squat, 405 sumo, and 400 conventional. Im thinking my optimal leverages are def for sumo I'm a lot bigger on my lower body than upper and have shorter arms. Just recently tried sumo, I did it only 1-2 times when I first started and could pull more weight that way but decided to do conventional to try and build up my strength. So the 405 sumo pull is off only training conventional really I just decided to try it the other day after forgetting about it.

Okay 2 cents.., well I can see your enthusiasm, but honestly last week you posted on starting smolov for your squat, so that may take some energy away from your pulling work if you are going ahead with that!?. Also, if your squat goes up, and your dead might just go up too, (lots of guys including myself have found this)
I am thinking...,"not to overthink this stuff and get too much going on that detracts from real progressive hard work. 400's after 3 months is dang good.
It sounds like you are fairly new to this and a bit impatient, (which I can also relate to as I still get that way) but take it from me, getting to much going on, detracts from just simple hard training on a the few "key regular" lifts. I am afraid if I tell you speed work might have helped my power off the floor, then you are going to want to incorporate those now, as well into your W/O's. And I think you still have room to improve on the simple lifts, (especially only after 3 months on deads) without clouding your thoughts up with all kinds of assistance this and blah blah. My greatest strength came from just getting down and doing the regular lifts hard for a bit, whether it was the squat, the deadlift the OHP or whatever. You'll gain experience as you go and learn how your body reacts. Be careful you don't overlook those, trying to use what the advanced guys use, that have already payed some dues on the simple work.
If you have to work a little lighter on deads, to keep nailing your back position and form, so it gets stronger/tighter as you move weight up, then it might be in your best interest to do so!?

 

[PaulBlack]

but I definitely use less lower back on sumo.

I might guess most sumo pullers feel this way, as that style has the lifter starting more upright at start so lumbar is more static, using more of their squatting power/leverages.
I think the jury may still be out, but it does seem to lean towards lifters with longer torsos are better at sumo, since they can close the gap better between shoulders and waist if they stay more upright.
Conventional pullers OTOH, may have a shorter to med. torso so the fulcrum between shoulders and waist is closer when they bend over.

 

[Yanks]

Okay 2 cents.., well I can see your enthusiasm, but honestly last week you posted on starting smolov for your squat, so that may take some energy away from your pulling work if you are going ahead with that!?. Also, if your squat goes up, and your dead might just go up too, (lots of guys including myself have found this)
I am thinking...,"not to overthink this stuff and get too much going on that detracts from real progressive hard work. 400's after 3 months is dang good.
It sounds like you are fairly new to this and a bit impatient, (which I can also relate to as I still get that way) but take it from me, getting to much going on, detracts from just simple hard training on a the few "key regular" lifts. I am afraid if I tell you speed work might have helped my power off the floor, then you are going to want to incorporate those now, as well into your W/O's. And I think you still have room to improve on the simple lifts, (especially only after 3 months on deads) without clouding your thoughts up with all kinds of assistance this and blah blah. My greatest strength came from just getting down and doing the regular lifts hard for a bit, whether it was the squat, the deadlift the OHP or whatever. You'll gain experience as you go and learn how your body reacts. Be careful you don't overlook those, trying to use what the advanced guys use, that have already payed some dues on the simple work.
If you have to work a little lighter on deads, to keep nailing your back position and form, so it gets stronger/tighter as you move weight up, then it might be in your best interest to do so!?

Thanks man your absolutely right on both fronts I'm def enthusiastic and very very impatient I want everything now that's why I'm thinking about Smolov but than I think rationally and I'm still making gains on bench squat and dead so prob no reason to do a program to help me through plateaus I just have my eyes set on 5 plates for squats lol! My programming has been pretty simple to be honest with minimum assistance exercises except for deadlift maybe this is why it hasn't progressed as much.

Someone from a different forum gave me a routine.

Mon bench/squat

Wed deadlift

Fri bench/squat

You do 4x8 week 1, then 4x6 week 2, 4x4 week 3, 4x2 week 4 got me a lot stronger and he recommended to not do any accesories on those days, but to do very light stuff if I wanted on 1-2 of the rest days. I'm thinking I'll prob just start over and do 4x8 again just up the weight by 5-15 lbs or a little more as per his recommendations.

I def think it make sense to prob go lighter on my deadlifts and maybe do more reps so I can build up my base, I'll prob save Smolov for 3-6 months down the road or whenever squats stall.