Old School, New School- mass reps and sets

[smith_69]

Evening AM

The other night I was on my way home and I was thinking about the movie Pumping Iron, Total Rebuild (when Arnold comes back to the MR O 1980) and Kai Greene methods of bodybuilding. Before its mentioned, yes probably AAS helped to achieve this and help break this threshold, but lets put this aside.

During both movies Arnold makes a reference (and this inst verbatim) pushing pass the pain and the reps start to count as soon as you feel the fatigue of the muscle. This threshold is what builds the muscle and separates people from reaching their goals and becoming champions.

The part that is obviously impossible to determine and this is based on this philosophy, what percentage of the max weight would have been used to achieve muscle fatigue at a rep and then be able to continue?

Kai along with other pro's have mentioned doing sets of 4-5 with high amount of reps with a lower weight. Again, most of this is mentioned during weeks out before a show, but what if this was to be used during a bulk? I know HVT used to be a big go to years ago, but seems to have been pushed aside for various reasons. German Volume Training was another method used ( i did try this, but it is not for the faint of heart and better with a spotter) but again, not too much of this seems to be used these days.

If the fact that pushing yourself past the normal 8-12 rep range and going to 20, 25 or even 30 rep sets helped or supposedly helped the old school guys, why isnt this mentioned more? I have flex mags from the late 90's and early 2000's with programs that Arnold mentions. During his interviews and then reveals his protocol, the extreme high reps is not mentioned. Is it because it would scare people away, seem absolutely ridiculous or near impossible to do without AAS ? Or maybe its one of those pieces of advice that was thought to be well known?

Do any of you now or have you in the past gone to 25-30 reps 4,5 sets for an excer5cise?

 

[Vector300]

Good question - I'll be curious to see what others have to say myself.

Personally, my favorite BB period is the supposed "Golden Era" of guys like Steve Reeves, Bill Pearl, John Grimek, and of course Reg Park. Park is a good example of how I train. I guess it would be called "power-building" today but in his time bodybuilders had to to perform lifts in addition to posing so they needed to be athletic. Many of them came from weightlifting backgrounds and trained heavy. Really heavy. When Park achieved his best physique he broke his training into an upper/lower split hitting his body 2x a week and used heavy lifting and then pump work. He thought it was important to perform both for building density and overall size and definition.

Arnold also dabbled in powerlifting after he met Columbo and he agreed that heavy lifting helped create "overall thickness". And used that to gain even more ground in his conquests.

Just about every top tier BB, even today is ridiculously strong - look at Coleman. So I think you need to still move a lot of metal around and never abandon pure strength work. Once again to be elite then you must be doing something right but I look at the guys from a time when there wasn't even easily available protein powders and cable machines. Hell, test wasn't even synthesized until the late 30's and didn't really hot the market probably until the 40's if even that early. Yet they still were jacked and also powerful so I usually look towards the past more than the future for my reading.

I don't really train weights with those high reps. I typically will stick in the 1-3 range for strength work with the occasional 5's and the 6-10 range for hypertrophy with some death sets thrown in here and there where I just go to failure. Anything past 10 for me is just too damn boring.

 

[B5150]

Evening AM

The other night I was on my way home and I was thinking about the movie Pumping Iron, Total Rebuild (when Arnold comes back to the MR O 1980) and Kai Greene methods of bodybuilding. Before its mentioned, yes probably AAS helped to achieve this and help break this threshold, but lets put this aside.

During both movies Arnold makes a reference (and this inst verbatim) pushing pass the pain and the reps start to count as soon as you feel the fatigue of the muscle. This threshold is what builds the muscle and separates people from reaching their goals and becoming champions.

The part that is obviously impossible to determine and this is based on this philosophy, what percentage of the max weight would have been used to achieve muscle fatigue at a rep and then be able to continue?

Kai along with other pro's have mentioned doing sets of 4-5 with high amount of reps with a lower weight. Again, most of this is mentioned during weeks out before a show, but what if this was to be used during a bulk? I know HVT used to be a big go to years ago, but seems to have been pushed aside for various reasons. German Volume Training was another method used ( i did try this, but it is not for the faint of heart and better with a spotter) but again, not too much of this seems to be used these days.

If the fact that pushing yourself past the normal 8-12 rep range and going to 20, 25 or even 30 rep sets helped or supposedly helped the old school guys, why isnt this mentioned more? I have flex mags from the late 90's and early 2000's with programs that Arnold mentions. During his interviews and then reveals his protocol, the extreme high reps is not mentioned. Is it because it would scare people away, seem absolutely ridiculous or near impossible to do without AAS ? Or maybe its one of those pieces of advice that was thought to be well known?

Do any of you now or have you in the past gone to 25-30 reps 4,5 sets for an excer5cise?

When I say I perfrom an exerciser for XX number of repetitions with a given weight it is understood that that number is the greatest number of repetitions I can do for that exercise at that weight for one set. Depending upon the rest interval (mine are always exact and the duration is determined by my goals) I can perform subsequent sets for equal to or less than the previous number of repetitions.

You cannot simply will yourself to double the amount of repetitions for a given weight. Unless the weight has been reduced or the rest interval has been increased I cannot see how anyone can perform equal to or a greater number of repetitions for a given consistent weight.

Therefore I am a challenged to understand the topic.

Edit: unless your referring to high volume training which then of course is just that and you do adjust the weights and reps.

 

[bighulksmash]

Damn this is a good subject . To answer your bottom question.
I do a 50 rep 50 lbs Dumbbell workout when pressed for time. Basically hammer out as many as you can before u cant anymore . Next while in a brief recovery state ill drink either 100% juice or bcaa like dieselade. I personally find higher reps better for faster growth. Ill allow for 2 rest days before returning to that muscle group.
You dont have to use 50s u can use anything 20 reps of 20 lbs what ever works . Just make it continuous motion. When you burn out grab a quick refuel of either a juice 100% or bcaa product. Another thing I should add is meal consumed before this work out is usually 120g carbs 60 to 80 g protein . Usually fish and potatoes or rice .

 

[Vector300]

Damn this is a good subject . To answer your bottom question.
I do a 50 rep 50 lbs Dumbbell workout when pressed for time. Basically hammer out as many as you can before u cant anymore . Next while in a brief recovery state ill drink either 100% juice or bcaa like dieselade. I personally find higher reps better for faster growth. Ill allow for 2 rest days before returning to that muscle group.
You dont have to use 50s u can use anything 20 reps of 20 lbs what ever works . Just make it continuous motion. When you burn out grab a quick refuel of either a juice 100% or bcaa product. Another thing I should add is meal consumed before this work out is usually 120g carbs 60 to 80 g protein . Usually fish and potatoes or rice .

Hulk - are you doing this as 1x50 or like 50 total reps in however many sets its takes? Kinda like rest-pause?

 

[bighulksmash]

Hulk - are you doing this as 1x50 or like 50 total reps in however many sets its takes? Kinda like rest-pause?

I pick it up go until i cant put it down 2 to 2.5 minute rest then try my best to complete set . So yes 1 set of 50 with rest pause . Been doin this for yrs and it helps me get up the weight rack fast . 2 days rest for me is essential when not on aas . If using aas i do 1 day off and split regimen. Going to make a YouTube acct soon .

Have any of you guys seen strength cartel ?

 

[smith_69]

When I say I perfrom an exerciser for XX number of repetitions with a given weight it is understood that that number is the greatest number of repetitions I can do for that exercise at that weight for one set. Depending upon the rest interval (mine are always exact and the duration is determined by my goals) I can perform subsequent sets for equal to or less than the previous number of repetitions.

You cannot simply will yourself to double the amount of repetitions for a given weight. Unless the weight has been reduced or the rest interval has been increased I cannot see how anyone can perform equal to or a greater number of repetitions for a given consistent weight.

Therefore I am a challenged to understand the topic.

Edit: unless your referring to high volume training which then of course is just that and you do adjust the weights and reps.

thanks David-
In both of the movies- you are led to somewhat believe that yes you can "will" yourself to reach a goal. Of course that logic is is bound by the laws of real life.

What I was referring to and asking, if these old school guys and even some of todays pros' lifted to the point of the burn then started counted reps; this high volume training so have you, when was this actually being used? When you listen to Arnold and some of the others "if i passed out in the gym or threw up, then i get up and keep going. At least i know i was pushing myself."

I dont believe this was used everyday but for example, if your max bench is 100 lbs and you put on 50lbs and hit 25 reps and do 4 sets. keep in mind you keep a steady during the neg and pos. Then you go to incline and complete the same.

obviously this method has its place which is different from HVT or GVT.

curious to read peoples thoughts if they have ever done something like this or actually how beneficial this is.

 

[Rocket3015]

I believe any type of exercise you do beats any you don't (Stupid but true). I have been training 30 years and by no means am I a monster but I have tried just about every kind of training there is. It all works, some better than others and the problem is, not everyone is the same, so all we can do is try everything and figure out what works best for you.

 

[Rodja]

The biggest difference I've seen over the years is the lessening of the importance of strength. You don't see really big dudes only squatting 315 or benching 225. Newbie trainees shouldn't have an "arm" day until they reach a certain base with strength being a large part of that base.

 

[Vector300]

I pick it up go until i cant put it down 2 to 2.5 minute rest then try my best to complete set . So yes 1 set of 50 with rest pause . Been doin this for yrs and it helps me get up the weight rack fast . 2 days rest for me is essential when not on aas . If using aas i do 1 day off and split regimen. Going to make a YouTube acct soon .

Have any of you guys seen strength cartel ?

Sounds like a bloody good time. Might give it whirl next time I'm in a gym with dumbbellz.

 

[Vector300]

The biggest difference I've seen over the years is the lessening of the importance of strength. You don't see really big dudes only squatting 315 or benching 225. Newbie trainees shouldn't have an "arm" day until they reach a certain base with strength being a large part of that base.

Completely agree - everyone forgets that all the elites could out bench, squat, deadlift, etc. just about anyone else. When you're squatting 8 hundo for reps (Coleman) chances are your higher rep work is still significantly heavier than most others.

Even look at powerlifters like Chris Duffin, Dan Green, and Jamie Lewis. All got down to single digit body fat. Are strong as **** and utilize heavy work with pump accessory.

 

[Rodja]

Completely agree - everyone forgets that all the elites could out bench, squat, deadlift, etc. just about anyone else. When you're squatting 8 hundo for reps (Coleman) chances are your higher rep work is still significantly heavier than most others.

Even look at powerlifters like Chris Duffin, Dan Green, and Jamie Lewis. All got down to single digit body fat. Are strong as **** and utilize heavy work with pump accessory.

Contrary to popular belief, powerlifting doesn't entail just heavy barbell movements. There's just as much of an emphasis on hypertrophy (usually through waving volume) as there is with BB'ing. They're not mutually exclusive.

 

[hairygrandpa]

In my younger years, I trained in the 5-7 rep range to failure + drop sets.
It worked great for 2 years, weights gone constantly up, muscles grew. Then, bam, injury.

IMHO, I'm older now and stay away from heavy weights. With heavy weights I mean 1-6 rep range.
Rest-pause is the key for me. Cutting down the time between sets, fatigues the muscle really fast and all with moderate weights.
Instead of upping weights weekly, I do more rest pause sets, for instance:
Week 1
Incline DB press
2x25kg (2x55lbs)
x12 rest pause 10 sec x7
x11 rest pause 10 sec x6
x11 rest pause 10 sec x5
x10 rest pause 10 sec x4
x10 rest pause 10 sec x4

week 2
2x25kg (2x55lbs)
x13 rest pause 10 sec x7 rest pause 10 sec 4
x10 rest pause 10 sec x5 rest pause 10 sec 3
and so on...

I'm a NOOB in here, it's what I do and I'm happy with.

 

[RegisterJr]

Going back to OPs original question on high rep training, I often do that at the end of my sessions.

John Meadows advocates a lot of high rep, rest pauses, go to failure + extra partials, etc.

I like doing the sets of 100 to finish of biceps and triceps after doing main work. Like someone else said though, you're picking a weight that you can achieve this. I can't take a 12rm weight and bust out 20+ extra reps.

 

[3pic_B3ast]

Completely agree - everyone forgets that all the elites could out bench, squat, deadlift, etc. just about anyone else. When you're squatting 8 hundo for reps (Coleman) chances are your higher rep work is still significantly heavier than most others.

Even look at powerlifters like Chris Duffin, Dan Green, and Jamie Lewis. All got down to single digit body fat. Are strong as **** and utilize heavy work with pump accessory.

Yes I think ultimately it comes down to how much weight your able to move. For instance if your looking for nice clean reps where you focus solely on form and pump and are performing reps of 12 on your working sets but those 12 reps are with 315. This is an incredible way to build thickness. On the other hand if your performing 12 reps with 135 (as a new lifter) as my working sets obviously the result will not be the same. But that strong base has to be there first. It doesn't have to be 12 reps of course. But the idea is the same. Hulks idea is great. But he's a seasoned lifter with experience and a strong base. I honestly don't think someone new would have the same results at that rep range. Build your 8 rep range first. Play with higher reps later. JMO.

 

[Rocket3015]

Yes I think ultimately it comes down to how much weight your able to move. For instance if your looking for nice clean reps where you focus solely on form and pump and are performing reps of 12 on your working sets but those 12 reps are with 315. This is an incredible way to build thickness. On the other hand if your performing 12 reps with 135 (as a new lifter) as my working sets obviously the result will not be the same. But that strong base has to be there first. It doesn't have to be 12 reps of course. But the idea is the same. Hulks idea is great. But he's a seasoned lifter with experience and a strong base. I honestly don't think someone new would have the same results at that rep range. Build your 8 rep range first. Play with higher reps later. JMO.

Good Insight

 

[B5150]

Hulks idea is great. But he's a seasoned lifter with experience and a strong base. I honestly don't think someone new would have the same results at that rep range.

How do you define seasoned lifter?

 

[3pic_B3ast]

How do you define seasoned lifter?

Maybe my use of seasoned was incorrect. This can also be a matter of perception. But my perception of a seasoned lifter comes down to experience and goals. Experience of maybe 5-10 years or more of goal oriented training. Since in this case we are talking weight lifted the goal being size and strength. And having a measure of success in both. This would be at the very minimum imo. But I'll assume you have another

 

[B5150]

Maybe my use of seasoned was incorrect. This can also be a matter of perception. But my perception of a seasoned lifter comes down to experience and goals. Experience of maybe 5-10 years or more of goal oriented training. Since in this case we are talking weight lifted the goal being size and strength. And having a measure of success in both. This would be at the very minimum imo. But I'll assume you have another

Nothing you said was "incorrect" and of course there is the potential I have another.