Building Wide Delts

[rowheavy12]

So I've been in and out of the gym since I was 16, and have now been back in for about 4 1/2 months. I'm growing everywhere except for my delts, especially my middle delts. I shoulder press, behind the neck, lateral raises. I have naturally big traps so I've been trying to be mindful of trying to take them out of the movement. Any other suggestions?

 

[digitalpimp]

What's your workout split look like?

 

[booneman77]

Single arm, leaning away lateral raises. It's almost impossible to cheat with your traps this way.

I have the same issue (trap dominant) and these helped me learn to feel a lot more.

Also, try seated raises and high rep (15+) sets of db presses.

 

[grinnell27]

Side laterals... Till failure and drop sets every workout.

Example - 35x failure, 30xfailure, 25xfailure, 15xfailure, 10xfailure

Do that for 4-5sets.
Blew my shoulders up hugely!

 

[rowheavy12]

Generally doing chest/tris/delts Legs back/bis cardio/abs delts/traps and then conditioning. Usually something along that

 

[jaces]

try doing more work for them and not just with raises but wide grip upright rows amd maybe try doing heavy partials om side raises

 

[breezy11]

Check out the link below for some different movements/variations. Over the last few years, they've been a big help with my overall delt development.


https://www.t-nation.com/training/shoulder-training-the-mountain-dog-way

 

[digitalpimp]

Check out the link below for some different movements/variations. Over the last few years, they've been a big help with my overall delt development.


https://www.t-nation.com/training/shoulder-training-the-mountain-dog-way

John Meadows always has some good info

 

[asooneyeonig]

try doing more work for them and not just with raises but wide grip upright rows amd maybe try doing heavy partials om side raises

OP,
please do NOT do upright rows. they are horrible for the shoulders.

 

[asooneyeonig]

Upright rows if you're built for 'em. Just make sure to keep a wide grip and to check for shoulder impingement.

or just never do them and have healthy shoulders.

 

[digitalpimp]

Very few coaches recommend upright rows these days. Although I will say that wide grip upright rows where you stop when your upper arms are parallel with the ground seem to be a fairly safe variation.

 

[jaces]

people wil always differ and have their own opinion so tey it fot yourself

 

[E94B]

Try focusing on building your standing OHP. OHP is a great shoulder developer (even your side delts). For upright rows, if you choose to do them try doing them with a wider grip and don't take them past your lower chest.

(I can't post videos yet apparently, but go to youtube and look up a tutorial on how to do wide grip upright rows - I liked the video from the channel called "advanced genetics")

This and lateral raises. A pretty solid shoulder routine would look a little something like this in my opinion:
-Standing OHP
-Wide Grip Upright Row (Not a lot of strain on the shoulders for this one, but if you feel uncomfortable --->) Or Lateral Raises
-Lots of rear delt stuff. Face pulls and rear delt flies

Focus on getting stronger on your lifts too, don't just try and do thousands of reps with a light weight to get the volume in. Sorry, bud...there's no magical way. Besides what I said and what everyone else said on this post just be consistent.

 

[genthoseffect]

So I've been in and out of the gym since I was 16, and have now been back in for about 4 1/2 months. I'm growing everywhere except for my delts, especially my middle delts. I shoulder press, behind the neck, lateral raises. I have naturally big traps so I've been trying to be mindful of trying to take them out of the movement. Any other suggestions?

What does your current split look like brother? What's a typical shoulder workout for you?

IMO delts are the #1 overtrained muscle group there is. That's the reason for them lagging much of the time

 

[kboxer7]

Single arm, leaning away lateral raises. It's almost impossible to cheat with your traps this way.

I have the same issue (trap dominant) and these helped me learn to feel a lot more.

Also, try seated raises and high rep (15+) sets of db presses.

Excellent advice.

Heavy lateral raises and volume have really helped my delt game.

 

[kboxer7]

What does your current split look like brother? What's a typical shoulder workout for you?

IMO delts are the #1 overtrained muscle group there is. That's the reason for them lagging much of the time

True for newbies and intermediately trained individuals.

I would argue however, that at some point the delts get used to all that overtraining from their activation as accessory muscles in a large range of exercises, in addition to direct delt work.

By the time this happens, the average trainee will likely only see dramatic growth from overwhelming volume.

While I agree in general with delts being largely over trained, I feel that a greater volume regimen for most will result in greater growth than backing off would, unless the individual drops delt work for a period of time long enough to "reset" to an extent.

In that case, I have seen data/research on greater growth thru periods of time off from directly stimulating a muscle, followed by standard periodized training.

My 2 cents.

 

[booneman77]

True for newbies and intermediately trained individuals.

I would argue however, that at some point the delts get used to all that overtraining from their activation as accessory muscles in a large range of exercises, in addition to direct delt work.

By the time this happens, the average trainee will likely only see dramatic growth from overwhelming volume.

While I agree in general with delts being largely over trained, I feel that a greater volume regimen for most will result in greater growth than backing off would, unless the individual drops delt work for a period of time long enough to "reset" to an extent.

In that case, I have seen data/research on greater growth thru periods of time off from directly stimulating a muscle, followed by standard periodized training.

My 2 cents.

I think the biggest issue with delt training is that they're a difficult muscle to truly isolate. Most of the exercises can be tweaked/cheated very slightly and have a significantly diminished impact directly on the targeted muscle. Its simply a function of the fact that the shoulder is tied in to so many other major muscle groups.

 

[genthoseffect]

True for newbies and intermediately trained individuals.

I would argue however, that at some point the delts get used to all that overtraining from their activation as accessory muscles in a large range of exercises, in addition to direct delt work.

By the time this happens, the average trainee will likely only see dramatic growth from overwhelming volume.

While I agree in general with delts being largely over trained, I feel that a greater volume regimen for most will result in greater growth than backing off would, unless the individual drops delt work for a period of time long enough to "reset" to an extent.

In that case, I have seen data/research on greater growth thru periods of time off from directly stimulating a muscle, followed by standard periodized training.

My 2 cents.

Respectfully, strongly disagree. There are a lot of variables involved. But what I've found works best for delt growth with myself and my clients is 3-5 working sets max, 2x a week...provided you're doing heavy work on back and chest as well. Have fixed many lagging delts by dropping the volume and upping the intensity and poundage used. Most of the time db laterals are all that's needed

Of course, I am a big proponent of low volume training in general. But it does require a high level of focus and drive. It's not for everyone

 

[kboxer7]

Respectfully, strongly disagree. There are a lot of variables involved. But what I've found works best for delt growth with myself and my clients is 3-5 working sets max, 2x a week...provided you're doing heavy work on back and chest as well. Have fixed many lagging delts by dropping the volume and upping the intensity and poundage used. Most of the time db laterals are all that's needed

Of course, I am a big proponent of low volume training in general. But it does require a high level of focus and drive. It's not for everyone

Fair enough.

I'll agree that heavy laterals is where its at. As for the volume, there are like you said, many factors to consider. It sounds like you've had success with your strategy so keep on keepin on man.

All the best

 

[asooneyeonig]

This isn't necessarily true. If your physiology and mobility allows you to do them without impingement it's fine. I've been doing them for years and I have no trouble. I know guys who have been doing them forever who are fine too. The key is not having ****ty posture and shoulder mobility from pressing too much and neglecting your upper back. Please stop spreading bad information. It's not black and white good or bad.

ok then.

here is doctor hyght explaining why it is bad:
https://www.t-nation.com/training/five-exercises-you-should-stop-doing-forever

another doctor, dan pope:
http://fitnesspainfree.com/5-stupid-exercises-smart-people-do-in-the-gym-that-are-destroying-their-shoulders/

maybe you don't believe doctors and you prefer bodybuilders. here is tom venuto:
http://www.burnthefatinnercircle.com/members/Will-Upright-Rows-Wreck-Your-Shoulders.cfm

or lyle mcdonald knocking that movement:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/are-upright-rows-safe-qa.html/

here is coach bones using bad throwing mechanics and people being injured by them and how it is similar to the upright row:
http://coachbones.com/inverted-w-and-upright-rows/

a quote from Dresdin Archibald:
And, even then, it is the latter only if your shoulder flexibility allows it. Those with tight shoulders will usually have rotator problems with the upright row.
from this link:
http://breakingmuscle.com/olympic-weightlifting/the-pull-is-not-an-upright-row-misconceptions-in-weightlifting

and another from Gordon Waddell, PES,CSCS,CES:
https://fitmontclair.wordpress.com/2010/10/31/13-terrifying-gym-exercsies-the-horrorfic-injuries-they-cause/

sure, now you can scour the web for articles that say it is safe and ok to use that movement. well let us just that out of the way. let me use an example. people still drink. we know it can cause harm. we know it can kill us. my brother is in the hospital right now with acute liver failure due to drinking. sure in moderation drinking won't harm you. we also know when it is not taken in enough volume to kill you it hinders you in many ways including but not limited to losing a job. it is bad enough that you cannot drink it at work (yes, unless you are a bartender, i get it). my point is, people will do bad things and will use any excuse they can justify it. there are far safer movements that can benefit not just the OP but everyone so why? why even recommend it at all. why say, hey, this potential danger can help you. some say dont, but **** man, YOLO, see if it will **** up your shoulders. sure you may need multiple surgeries but the only way to tell is to do and at least you will look sweet dude!

last thought, many years ago athletes would smoke as they thought it would open up their lungs and help them be better. many people smoke their entire lives and are fine. others dont smoke at all and die of lung or throat cancer. we still know, thanks to science, that smoking is bad for us. people still smoke. the risk is not worth it.

 

[jaces]

ok then.

here is doctor hyght explaining why it is bad:
https://www.t-nation.com/training/five-exercises-you-should-stop-doing-forever

another doctor, dan pope:
http://fitnesspainfree.com/5-stupid-exercises-smart-people-do-in-the-gym-that-are-destroying-their-shoulders/

maybe you don't believe doctors and you prefer bodybuilders. here is tom venuto:
http://www.burnthefatinnercircle.com/members/Will-Upright-Rows-Wreck-Your-Shoulders.cfm

or lyle mcdonald knocking that movement:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/are-upright-rows-safe-qa.html/

here is coach bones using bad throwing mechanics and people being injured by them and how it is similar to the upright row:
http://coachbones.com/inverted-w-and-upright-rows/

a quote from Dresdin Archibald:
And, even then, it is the latter only if your shoulder flexibility allows it. Those with tight shoulders will usually have rotator problems with the upright row.
from this link:
http://breakingmuscle.com/olympic-weightlifting/the-pull-is-not-an-upright-row-misconceptions-in-weightlifting

and another from Gordon Waddell, PES,CSCS,CES:
https://fitmontclair.wordpress.com/2010/10/31/13-terrifying-gym-exercsies-the-horrorfic-injuries-they-cause/

sure, now you can scour the web for articles that say it is safe and ok to use that movement. well let us just that out of the way. let me use an example. people still drink. we know it can cause harm. we know it can kill us. my brother is in the hospital right now with acute liver failure due to drinking. sure in moderation drinking won't harm you. we also know when it is not taken in enough volume to kill you it hinders you in many ways including but not limited to losing a job. it is bad enough that you cannot drink it at work (yes, unless you are a bartender, i get it). my point is, people will do bad things and will use any excuse they can justify it. there are far safer movements that can benefit not just the OP but everyone so why? why even recommend it at all. why say, hey, this potential danger can help you. some say dont, but **** man, YOLO, see if it will **** up your shoulders. sure you may need multiple surgeries but the only way to tell is to do and at least you will look sweet dude!

last thought, many years ago athletes would smoke as they thought it would open up their lungs and help them be better. many people smoke their entire lives and are fine. others dont smoke at all and die of lung or throat cancer. we still know, thanks to science, that smoking is bad for us. people still smoke. the risk is not worth it.

so then people are the problem not the movement.All exercises are dangerous if performed incorrectly by people who want to go to heavy .

 

[CJNator]

I know its not too helpful but mine started growing when adding more volume, 6 sets of OHP, 4 sets of stabding DB shoulder press, the 3-4 sets of lateral raises 15-20 reps.

 

[mountainman33]

The one simple thing that I changed which helped my mid and rear delt development was pointing my thumbs down during lateral raises. Seems simple I know, but sometimes it's the simple things that can make a huge difference.

 

[digitalpimp]

The one simple thing that I changed which helped my mid and rear delt development was pointing my thumbs down during lateral raises. Seems simple I know, but sometimes it's the simple things that can make a huge difference.

Thumbs down makes a huge difference on bent over laterals for me

 

[kboxer7]

Check out the info below to identify which exercises best utilize the middle delt:


Average EMG for the Middle Deltoid (showing greatest middle delt fiber activation on avg)


45-degree Incline Row 84 ± 14.5
Bent-arm Lateral Raise 77 ± 16.1
Cable Diagonal Raise 74 ± 15.1*
BB Upright Row 73 ± 13.3*
Seated Rear Lateral Raise 70 ± 14.6*
DB Shoulder Press 62 ± 18.6*
Battling Ropes 37 ± 19.3*
DB Front Raise 36 ± 15.5*
Push-ups 13 ± 11.5*
Dips 7 ± 3.5*


Dynamite Delts: ACE Research Identifies Top Shoulder Exercises
August 22, 2014, 12:00AM
By Samantha Sweeney, M.S., John P. Porcari, Ph.D., Clayton Camic, Ph.D., Attila Kovacs, Ph.D., and Carl Foster, Ph.D.