Rest between volume sets on 5/3/1, how many reps to "lose"?

[Frank1983]

how many reps should I be "losing" on my volume work? Very short rest periods ala rest-pause cuts my reps at least by half. A more standard 1 minute rest has me losing a couple of reps each sets. 2+ minutes and i may only lose a single rep.

Ive been moving from more straight set, long rest period work ala texas method to something more hypertrophy, 8-12 rep, short rest period work.

The answer i see pop up on the forums is "as long as it takes to be ready for your next set". So, the question i seem to be asking is, what is the operational definition of "ready"?

 

[Kanelifts2718]

It all depends on how you feel and if you're mentally ready, normally I would wait til my heart rates slows and I feel calm not out of breath then go for the next set when working in the low rep range,

 

[Frank1983]

I get the low rep range sets. Im talking about the volume sets, ie the standard recommendation of
8-12 reps x 3-5 sets
Ive used rest periods of 30 seconds, 1 minute, 2 minutes, 3 minutes. They all seem to "work", as in my big 4 lifts continue to improve, but surely there is a more nuanced approach to volume set rest periods than "dont major in the minors. Just do the work".

Coming from starting strength, i tended to err on the side of longer rest periods. Now that my focus has shifted from strength to hypertrophy, ive been shortening the rest periods. Ive been digging the shorter rests also because i can get in a lot more volume without spending all afternoon in the gym. Come to think of it, to improve training density, id love to switch as much of my assistance work to ultra short, rest-pause style training. Im just hesitant to go into fairly uncharted territory, since i dont see many 5/3/1 logs using wendlers modified dc training protocol.

It all depends on how you feel and if you're mentally ready, normally I would wait til my heart rates slows and I feel calm not out of breath then go for the next set when working in the low rep range,

 

[asooneyeonig]

depends. your work capacity, recovery ability, food intake, sleep patterns, can all affect this on a daily basis. these variables change over time. some measured in days, others in months or even years.

what is meant by how long in stating as long as it takes, you do just that. so if you need to do 3x10 you rest long enough to be recovered to be able to hit 10 reps on all sets whether that be 30 seconds or 5 minutes. this is less important on a bodybuilding plan in that you need to keep the reset shorter and focus on the muscle working and not worry so much about number of reps. if you are doing a strength program you can go much longer on rest and reps done are more important in that you do not ever want to miss a rep. strength programs are also based upon percentages so volume and intensity is already closely monitored. if you miss reps you either did not recover from the previous workout, did not recover from the previous set, or estimated your max too high.

 

[Frank1983]

depends. your work capacity, recovery ability, food intake, sleep patterns, can all affect this on a daily basis. these variables change over time. some measured in days, others in months or even years.

what is meant by how long in stating as long as it takes, you do just that. so if you need to do 3x10 you rest long enough to be recovered to be able to hit 10 reps on all sets whether that be 30 seconds or 5 minutes. this is less important on a bodybuilding plan in that you need to keep the reset shorter and focus on the muscle working and not worry so much about number of reps. if you are doing a strength program you can go much longer on rest and reps done are more important in that you do not ever want to miss a rep. strength programs are also based upon percentages so volume and intensity is already closely monitored. if you miss reps you either did not recover from the previous workout, did not recover from the previous set, or estimated your max too high.

"Rest long enough to be able to hit 10 reps on all sets"
The implications of this, if im understanding you correctly, would be that id be resting 3 minutes for most of my volume sets. To do this and get adequate volume to disrupt homeostasis, id be in the gym forever. I also watch guys much larger than me at the gym, and they seem to slowly lose repetitions over time as they progress through their volume sets, implying they are not fully recovered.
Im sure im misunderstanding something, but what i dont know. Thank you SO much for the detailed replies, both of you. I realize it takes time and can be frustrating to have someone not really "get it" and keep asking questions. Thank you thank you

To reiterate
5/3/1 sets: full recovery, 3-5 minute rests, little to no loss in repetitions for straight sets.
Volume sets:
30 second rests: could cut my reps in half.
1 minute: by a few
2 minutes: by 1 or 2
3 minutes: minimal rep loss

 

[Forty Nine]

By your chart I'm guessing you take every set to failure or near failure.
Pick a weight you can do 3 sets of 10. You could probably do 13 or 14 on the first set but do only 10. Then when you rest a minute come back and do 10 more. On the second set you could probably do 11 or 12 but just do 10. Then rest another minute and do 10 more. Ideally this 10 should take you to failure. If you could only do 8 then you missed 2 reps and you've over estimated what you can do. What ever time you pick between sets is your personal choice and what works best for adding size and strength to your body. People who train volume usually don't go to failure every set.

The thing is when he said closely monitored you should figure out which time between reps is good for you and do the same every time to monitor whether you are progressing better or worse. I used to do this when I was younger but with sets of 8. Once I was able to do 3 sets of 8 I would make the weight a unit heavier thus progressing all of the time. I say a unit because on the bench it might be 10 pounds more but a concentration curl may be just 2 1/2 or 5 pounds more

 

[alexoc949]

I'd say rest a minute. 4x10 and when u can do 10 reps for 4 sets, the next session you bump the weight up untill you're at 4x10 w/New weight and progress that way. Might look like 10/10/8/7, 10/10/9/8 10/10/10/8 10/10/10/10 ...slap on some weight.