Topic of the week: Is Overtraining BS?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Yes, when I was fighting professionally. Heavy training volume+cutting weight got me there, but it took about 8 weeks before it really happened.
    Care to elaborate on what exactly happened?

    I have only seen/heard about true overtraining from others and it seems that in general, a full 2-3 weeks was needed to recovery physically and slightly longer mentally but again, all anecdotal


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Data is the result of science. You should go back to elementary science to learn the scientific method again. Overtraining came from eastern Bloc training and none of it applies to Mentzer's ideas. Do you even know who Prilepin, Issurin, and Bompa are?

    Mentzer's idea on a set to failure and beyond becomes a muscular issue and not a CNS issue. You can tell you're not familiar with the CNS and its role in recovery and efficiency. This method taxes the muscles and connective tissue far before CNS fatigue becomes an issue unless you are horribly out of shape. Hmmm....that sounds like work capacity, doesn't it?

    You point to X number of sets. Sets of what lift? Is their technique optimal? What's their level of conditioning? All these things are not accounted for in your philosophy.

    I don't get how work capacity seems to fly over your head as it is completely correlated with recovery. This likely comes from your lack of formal education and understanding of the strength curve. You're even confused about the starting point; the cylinder begins at max capacity and not empty and, yes, the size of the "plug" does also increase. This is why it takes a longer deload period for the more advanced athlete to peak compared to a novice athlete. They know how to tax their CNS efficiently during the overreaching periods and start to taper volume as much as a month out from a competition. Conversely, a novice strength athlete may only need 5-7 days because they're not as efficient and need the skill practice.

    Recovery on a small scale comes from improved enzymatic efficient at dissipating waste products intra-set. Lactic acid plays no role whatsoever as its dissipated within minutes (I really hope you don't think soreness is a result of lactic acid). On a large scale, it is the ability to replenish glycogen stores, bring the HR close resting levels, and keep nitrogen retention on the positive side.

    You really, really, really need to stop looking at this as a BB'ing concept as it isn't. It's a strength concept.
    Great post here. I am familiar with those three - but have not read nearly as much detail as I would like. I am not claiming to be formally educated and I appreciate your sharing your knowledge. It was always my understanding that doing intense sets at higher % of 1RM were more draining on the CNS than muscles. I.e. - doing singles on dead lifts can take a huge toll on the CNS, right? I've always felt this played a roll in recovery. In other words, if I'm doing sets of 12 reps to failure, this will be slightly easier on the CNS (or maybe a lot easier) than doing sets of 4 to failure - but the sets of 12 may stimulate the muscle more. This to me, was a simpler explanation of what people have observed in "bodybuilding vs. powerlifting" where powerlifters train the movement and involve their CNS more, etc. - and is in alignment with what you are saying about power lifters being more likely to overtrain.

    Also - I don't know why I said lactic acid...I was typing fast and doing something else and probably wasn't thinking. Wasn't the best example by a long shot.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by BeastFitness View Post
    Does anyone feel as if they've truly overtrained before?
    Yes, similar to Rodja, except I was fighting amateur. Also when I was training for an endurance event. It is primarily the diet changes that had the most impact, IMO.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by jaces View Post
    how can data be the result of science??you use data to prove science and to accept or decline a theory or hypothesis.. data is just random numbers if not used correctly.. and i believe that if a study is not dubbel blind than it is a waste of time
    I don't disagree with Rodja's use of this - my point was just that all data isn't necessarily good and just because something leads to data doesn't make it science. But, science does create data - which has to be evaluated. Which I think is where you're coming from too.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by BeastFitness View Post
    Care to elaborate on what exactly happened?

    I have only seen/heard about true overtraining from others and it seems that in general, a full 2-3 weeks was needed to recovery physically and slightly longer mentally but again, all anecdotal
    About 14 days out, I started struggling to get to sleep and my RHR was around 65 (at the time, I was usually from 44-48). I also noticed that my reflexes were slower and my shots had less pop in them. At 10 days out, I started to lose my appetite. This was kinda nice at the time since it would make the cut easier, but it was another sign. All of fight week, I was completely lethargic. My endurance was declining and I would almost space out for a moment. This was also a tough week at school and just attributed it to being stressed from that and less calories. The weirdest part was the cut was incredibly easy and I was quite lively on this day (I had just started dated this chick I was chasing for months). By the time fight day came, I was out of it again. I was getting winded during the normal warmup drills that I should've been able to do for days. When I knew I was out of it was when I didn't get into my entrance song even with the new GF in the crowd.

    I took the entire next week off from doing anything. Even the subsequent week, I didn't have a desire to get back on the mat. I did go back to lifting this week, however. It was I think another month before I felt like I was back to 90% of my capacity.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys

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  6. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    Great post here. I am familiar with those three - but have not read nearly as much detail as I would like. I am not claiming to be formally educated and I appreciate your sharing your knowledge. It was always my understanding that doing intense sets at higher % of 1RM were more draining on the CNS than muscles. I.e. - doing singles on dead lifts can take a huge toll on the CNS, right? I've always felt this played a roll in recovery. In other words, if I'm doing sets of 12 reps to failure, this will be slightly easier on the CNS (or maybe a lot easier) than doing sets of 4 to failure - but the sets of 12 may stimulate the muscle more. This to me, was a simpler explanation of what people have observed in "bodybuilding vs. powerlifting" where powerlifters train the movement and involve their CNS more, etc. - and is in alignment with what you are saying about power lifters being more likely to overtrain.

    Also - I don't know why I said lactic acid...I was typing fast and doing something else and probably wasn't thinking. Wasn't the best example by a long shot.
    Yes, that is it. What's your point?
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  7. Quote Originally Posted by BeastFitness View Post
    Does anyone feel as if they've truly overtrained before?
    I have. And I think it was actually a combination of many different things - not just working out. Lack of sleep, nutrition, high-stress environments, etc. can all contribute and are often over-looked.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Yes, that is it. What's your point?
    I don't really have a point as much as trying to clarify things and learn. But you state that Mentzer's approach is more of a muscle issue and less of a CNS issue, where Mentzer was often advocating relatively heavy training. He did seem to lean toward middle-rep ranges (6-12 reps for most things) and was geared more toward bodybuilding, so there is that distinction, but I think he also did this to help avoid CNS issues with such heavy training (whether he knew why or not - he was basing his recommendations on the results he saw with his clients).

    I'm just confused because you stood hard fast to the idea that overtraining was CNS, which I agree with, but then say training to failure is more of a muscle issue so I'm trying to understand better given the fact that heavy training usually drains the CNS more in my reading. i.e. - I'm just trying to learn.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    I don't really have a point as much as trying to clarify things and learn. But you state that Mentzer's approach is more of a muscle issue and less of a CNS issue, where Mentzer was often advocating relatively heavy training. He did seem to lean toward middle-rep ranges (6-12 reps for most things) and was geared more toward bodybuilding, so there is that distinction, but I think he also did this to help avoid CNS issues with such heavy training (whether he knew why or not - he was basing his recommendations on the results he saw with his clients).

    I'm just confused because you stood hard fast to the idea that overtraining was CNS, which I agree with, but then say training to failure is more of a muscle issue so I'm trying to understand better given the fact that heavy training usually drains the CNS more in my reading. i.e. - I'm just trying to learn.
    Sets of 6-12, whether or not to failure, are not going to tax the CNS like singles or double. The connective tissue is likely going to get damaged in the higher rep set more so than CNS fatigue.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  10. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Data is collected as the result of the implementation of the scientific method. Whether or not the data accepts or rejects the null hypothesis depends on said hypothesis. How exactly do you have a DOUBLE blind study in the field of strength training? It's not a nutrition protocol or a supplement/drug study.
    split the group into a placebo and whatever you want to test...

  11. Quote Originally Posted by jaces View Post
    split the group into a placebo and whatever you want to test...
    Lol how do you placebo a lift?
    Psalms 62:1-62:2

  12. Quote Originally Posted by tyga tyga View Post
    Lol how do you placebo a lift?
    Just follow Mentzer's protocol of course.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by jaces View Post
    split the group into a placebo and whatever you want to test...
    When there's a placebo developed for exercise, let me know. Good lord, are you really this unfamiliar with how to develop a study? Don't answer...we already know.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  14. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    When there's a placebo developed for exercise, let me know. Good lord, are you really this unfamiliar with how to develop a study? Don't answer...we already know.
    you should have been n woman cause you complain more than my girlfriend.. or isit your peroid time??dont answer we already know
  15. Topic of the week: Is Overtraining BS?


    Quote Originally Posted by jaces View Post
    you should have been n woman cause you complain more than my girlfriend.. or isit your peroid time??dont answer we already know
    Calling out your stupidity is complaining to you? I guess half the board is a bunch of woman because you've been called out by way more than just me. You would think the person claiming to be studying pharmacy would know not only how to spell double blind properly, but you'd also know what it even means.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  16. I have not read this entire thread yet, but roughly 15 years ago I was diagnosed with rhabdomyolysis. My urine was color of Coke mixed with red wine. My muscles especially my around chest and thighs felt shredded like someone went to town on my muscles using a razor blade. My wife made me goto local walkin clinic. Next morning doc at clinic called me and said "get yourself to nearest ER NOW". Hospital kept me there until my levels were somewhat back to normal which was 3 long days. I don't remember any of my numbers but doctor at hospital said he has never seen numbers like mine and that my kidney or liver could fail. I was in pain killer drip the entire time. If I remember correctly all they did was give me iv but they put a tourniquet like device to compress the iv bag so more fluids go into me at faster rate. I had to pee every 15-30mins for 3 long ass days. I also got a shot in my tummy every night but can't remember what it was. If anybody is interested I can try to find out more info regarding my bout with rhabdomyolysis. I wasn't working out hardcore. I was actually getting back into gym when it happened. Maybe I was so out of shape but I workout as if I was a seasoned vet??????
    The more I progress, the more I want to progress

  17. Quote Originally Posted by datsthat View Post
    I have not read this entire thread yet, but roughly 15 years ago I was diagnosed with rhabdomyolysis. My urine was color of Coke mixed with red wine. My muscles especially my around chest and thighs felt shredded like someone went to town on my muscles using a razor blade. My wife made me goto local walkin clinic. Next morning doc at clinic called me and said "get yourself to nearest ER NOW". Hospital kept me there until my levels were somewhat back to normal which was 3 long days. I don't remember any of my numbers but doctor at hospital said he has never seen numbers like mine and that my kidney or liver could fail. I was in pain killer drip the entire time. If I remember correctly all they did was give me iv but they put a tourniquet like device to compress the iv bag so more fluids go into me at faster rate. I had to pee every 15-30mins for 3 long ass days. I also got a shot in my tummy every night but can't remember what it was. If anybody is interested I can try to find out more info regarding my bout with rhabdomyolysis. I wasn't working out hardcore. I was actually getting back into gym when it happened. Maybe I was so out of shape but I workout as if I was a seasoned vet??????
    Jesus that sucks man. Rhabdo is like hyper-catabolism. Your body eats the muscle and dumps proteins into your blood stream. Deadly sh*t dude. You're lucky.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Parad0x View Post
    Jesus that sucks man. Rhabdo is like hyper-catabolism. Your body eats the muscle and dumps proteins into your blood stream. Deadly sh*t dude. You're lucky.
    Yea, I've used up nearly all 9 lives and an extremely lucky person. No wonder my urine was so dark. I wonder if osta would prevented catabolism (I am joking)
    The more I progress, the more I want to progress

  19. Quote Originally Posted by datsthat View Post
    Yea, I've used up nearly all 9 lives and an extremely lucky person. No wonder my urine was so dark. I wonder if osta would prevented catabolism (I am joking)
    I pissed blood once. Super dehydrated, not going into it (before getting into fitness). Drank a full liter of water in less than 2 minutes and turned my piss the color of sh*t. Bottom line, stay hydrated bros lol

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Calling out your stupidity is complaining to you? I guess half the board is a bunch of woman because you've been called out by way more than just me. You would think the person claiming to be studying pharmacy would know not only how to spell double blind properly, but you'd also know what it even means.
    dam,looks like i have a follower.. or stalker..

  21. Quote Originally Posted by jaces View Post
    dam,looks like i have a follower.. or stalker..
    And I thought the US education standards were getting worse. Are all 20 year olds this dumb?
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  22. dont know , dont live there, but man you know a lot about me, did we go on a date sometime??

  23. Quote Originally Posted by jaces View Post
    dont know , dont live there, but man you know a lot about me, did we go on a date sometime??
    You should pay attention to the garbage you post. It's in this damn thread or did you forget espousing how tough you are? You know...with the shooting people and whatnot.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  24. Quote Originally Posted by jaces View Post
    dont know , dont live there, but man you know a lot about me, did we go on a date sometime??
    You must go on a lot of dates with men if you need to ask that question.

    You flood the board with your stupidity so often it's not hard knowing you a little.

  25. i just dont take your bull****.. you only accept data en theories that support your own.. you act as if you have achieved something great but your just a pathetic douche infront of a screen acting asif he has balls
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