Topic of the week: Is Overtraining BS?
- 12-20-2016, 01:33 PM
- 12-20-2016, 01:47 PM
Performax Labs Online Rep.
12-20-2016, 10:57 PM
Interesting to hear some intelligent views on the topic but I think it's all interpretation. Just words we use to describe how we're feeling. When looking at some extreme examples of conditions for becoming OT or OR'd, I turn to Ranger Training. Their training is completed over a two month period that involves very modest amounts of sleep and calorie intake. Could OT/OR be in our mind? Could the high dropout/fail rate in this camp be due to OT/OR or as they cal it "extreme exhaustion"? Yes to both
No matter how you interpret it, the fact is we all have a breaking point. I interpret OR as an issue based on muscular recovery and OT as a CNS burnout.
Accurate or not, it's terms I use for feedback. My experience has been that OR/OT is possible and the result was a shut down immune system that lead to a few days of Flu-like symptoms.
I will say that OT issues came during a time when I was in my early 20s and drinking and partying a lot. Drug and alcohol fueled nights and days of rather intense lifting. I wasn't doing my body any favors and it stopped me in my tracks once or twice. Ecstacy, coke and whiskey are no longer a part of my diet. I train harder now more than ever and never experience the same issues.
OT/OR is real but anyone who trains with half a brain and who listens to their body won't experience the worst of it. But I think we all intentionally dance on the threshold of OT/OR in order to grow.
12-20-2016, 11:01 PM
12-20-2016, 11:17 PM
I am in sales and it reminds me a bit of the sales trainers who start off their seminar or book with, "I love cold calling..." Yeah...that's because you haven't done much if it.
Ironically, if you don't believe in over training, you aren't working hard enough.
12-20-2016, 11:22 PM
You may as well say there is no such thing as amputation, just under eating.
12-20-2016, 11:56 PM
Performax Labs Online Rep.
12-21-2016, 12:26 PM
12-21-2016, 12:33 PM
HST works quite well so how does one overtrain?
When I wrestled I under ate. Never slept. And trained far too much.
When your body consumes muscle. You're overtraining.
12-21-2016, 12:38 PM
Performax Labs Online Rep.
12-21-2016, 12:52 PM
I am playing with your logic and probably seem a bit irritating and I am sorry for that...But I think you are highlighting some points, some of which became the reason I avoid this thread usually.
1. People, for some unknown reason, attribute some mystical meaning and all kinds of back story to the term "overtraining"
2. People think it has something to do with being willing to work hard.
I agree that it is difficult to find a consensus on what dose of training constitutes too much, but there certainly is a specific dose that yields maximum results, which you seem to be well aware of in your statement above.
You can further define acute vs. chronic...But that isn't what is being discussed directly, the existence of OT at all is being questioned.
And I agree with you very much that you can work hard or you can work long, but you cannot do both. This concept slips by a lot in these discussions. If you are pressing your 1RM, you won't do it for very long before the best you can do is your 90% and then 80, 70, etc. At those points it may be taxing and challenging, but it isn't hard work from a strength perspective anymore...It is hard on endurance only.
12-21-2016, 01:03 PM
12-21-2016, 01:06 PM
Topic of the week: Is Overtraining BS?
Incredible discussion. If I were not in the car at a light I would write more but have an idea regarding programmed training with experienced versus novice.
Maybe someone else could touch on that along with muscle memory and the edge of knowing limitations.
12-21-2016, 01:42 PM
And I how hypertrophy actually takes place is a little bit debatable. It may be more like a light switch - it's either on or off and once you turn it on, you can continue to push up or toggle it all you want, but it won't give you more light. So, once you've stimulated muscle growth, you've done your job and more stimulation will NOT create more adaptation. I think this isn't 100% true, but I think it's closer than most people think. Sometimes a LITTLE more stimulation will get you a bit extra, but once you've turned on growth, you can't do much more.
It would be nice to just go to the gym and do 200 sets of something and get my adaptation in for a year all at once though...and then come back a month later and have a year's worth of progress.
12-21-2016, 02:36 PM
It seems that people think OT/OR are wicked terms.
1) Without a degree of OT we wouldn't grow. Too much too frequently has an inverse effect.
2) OT can simply refer to training beyond the maximal effective dose. Once you cross the line your body is pumping itself full of cortisol and if you don't know the damage that causes to almost everything in your body you should do some research.
So Overtraining isn't only about diet or recovery or time in the gym. If you tax your adrenal glands to the point of submission you will be over-trained.
Forget weightlifting. If you want to examine the concept of OT/OR just keep a steady diet of caffeine throughout the day and deprive yourself of darkness (constant sunlight or UV).
When you do this for a couple days to a week - test your reading comprehension and math skills, record the number of push-ups you can do in 10 minutes and run a mile.
Overtrained is just a word or a term we use in the sport. The reason it's so debated is because we made it up and its not something a doctor diagnoses you with.
And no **** you can avoid it or limit it with proper sleep and diet. That doesn't mean it isnt possible. I can avoid falling off the golden gate bridge by not crossing it. Doesn't mean it couldn't happen under other circumstances.
12-21-2016, 02:44 PM
An athlete can perform better than 80% of the public and be chronically overtrained. Being OT doesn't mean being bed-ridden. But if you acknowledge the factors that lead to OT'ing you might adjust your regimen to optimize your energy levels and overall strength output and mental well-being.
symptoms of OT can be as innocuous as waking up tired, being moody or irritable, lethargic, depressed (even slightly), loss of appetite, decreased libido and poor sleep habits (ie insomnia)
Over-Reaching leads to being Over-Trained
At least that is how I look at it
12-21-2016, 03:02 PM
I will say this. I would never take advice or listen to much of what a personal trainer or health practitioner says if that person denies Over-Training.
The only case against it comes from people describing how to limit it or recover from it.
12-28-2016, 08:54 PM
The last few pages are really well-thought. Can't add much but that the concept of prilepins chart was developed for a reason. Stimulation for growth has a threshold where, in terms of results of the volume, more isn't necessarily better. Just like how highest intensities are not the be all end all to absolute strengrh, though a huge component of it. What I takeaway from this discussion though that i never considered is that overreaching is a failure in the climb and peak of performance, whereas overtraining is stimulation outdoing recovery, so the immune system, joints or whatever gets negatively impacted and/or inhibits optimal performance strategies
01-17-2017, 06:53 PM
01-17-2017, 07:43 PM
Contradicatory synonyms. I also find on the brink of OT I make great gains. It's also an indicator to back off or else Hard to do when progress is at a peak. Had to learn to drop the ego here. Recovery ability being such an individual thing so there's no way to diagnose someone based on their training volume/intensity alone. Those who preach to impossibility of reaching an OT state can only speak from personal experience and not for you. Learn where your limits lie through trial and error. I've found my own recovery limits through trial and error. I know how hard I can train when I'm working and when I'm not. If i do get caught out it's usually due to making lifestyle changes or stressful life challenge pops up. Being able to adapt your training to keep progress consistent and optimal given a change in life circumstances isn't easy.
02-01-2017, 04:25 PM
I've over trained for years and it always led to stalled gains and injuries. the truth is, I like to be in the gym. I enjoy lifting. I'd go 7 days a week but I can't be effective squatting, deadlifting, benching, cleaning or snatching 7 days a week.
If I PR today, I know I need to let the body recover a little more for a couple days or even a week. But inevitably, I won't. I'll come back tomorrow or the next day and try to PR over my PR. that may work twice, but never thrice. instead, I'll go backwards and be forced into rest either from exhaustion or injury and have to start the climb again.
02-01-2017, 04:29 PM
02-01-2017, 04:54 PM
It's odd that you would be training for years and making rookie mistakes like testing PR that often.
02-01-2017, 05:03 PM
(And yes, old post. Just reading it thru and commenting.)
02-01-2017, 05:11 PM
03-06-2017, 07:36 PM
03-06-2017, 08:10 PM
03-06-2017, 08:11 PM
03-24-2017, 06:14 AM
There's a reason RPE is being utilized more and more around the "Powerlifting" Community...
...it can be fairly easy to overly tax your CNS, when sessions revolve around compound movements.
Not sure I'd call it "overtraining"...but there should definitely be an acknowledgement of overall exertion when planning weekly and monthly progression...
03-25-2017, 02:41 PM
You cant really overtrain as long as you get the recovery you need, food and sleep are essential and if you use steroids that will help aswell.
But at some point even with perfect sleep, food and ass your body wont be able to recover intill the next workout so in that sense you could overtrain.
But 2-3 hours a day 7 days a week wont get you overtrained if you eat and sleep enough. And ofc learn to listen to your body, if a muscle is feeling sore or weird maybe you shouldnt go all in that day.
Atleast Thats what i belive from reading and doing for a few years now.
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