Training around injuries / Starting new programs

[Gutterpump]

Hi guys, so for the last couple years I've been training around injuries (mild SLAP tear in right shoulder, disc issue in T-spine), meaning that I can't do certain lifts, specifically:

No dips
No barbell bench press (at any angle)
No pullups (chins are ok)
BB Bent rows can be problematic

I basically haven't been following a specific routine, just doing what I can with decent results. I'm looking to change things up a bit though and try to follow an actual routine like Arnold's Blueprint or PHAT.

Problem is that so many of the core moves in these routines rely on heavy compounds, things that can tend to tweak my shoulder/back if I'm not careful. So what should I do? In people's opinions, should I keep training as I've been training, doing what I can, working around the injuries while progressively overloading / deloading / repeating? Or should I try to do one of these routines and swap out the lifts that I can't do? Problem is, there aren't many things that can easily be swapped for those lifts, maybe a combo of other lifts, but yeah, it's tricky.

Basically, I don't want to start something new and end up re-injuring myself and setting myself back, so I'm looking for a bit of advice.

 

[napalm]

Hey gutter,

IMO, a SLAP tear shouldn't keep you from benching. I've torn both sides and am benching just fine. You just need to be super a.nal about your technique. I'm living proof it can be done. I remember your rehab thread and if I recall correctly, it healed up pretty good for you. As far as programs go, what are your goals? I've had good results from 531 and currently 10/20/life. 10/20 put 30 lbs on my bench in 10 weeks. The key is deload, in 531 it's every 4 weeks and every 3 in 10/20.

Good luck,

 

[Gutterpump]

Thanks Napalm. The SLAP in my left shoulder healed up well, but I have a mild unrepaired SLAP tear in my right shoulder as well.

Pullups aggravate it, bent rows aggravate it, benching aggravates it, unless I use a narrow grip.
I basically can't do dips anymore either. I've tried, but eventually run into a wall even when things seemingly start out fine.

I'd love to start benching again, but I may need to get it repaired if that's my goal I'm thinking.

Last week I gave incline benching a shot again, and the next couple days I felt pain deep in the delt, around the labrum on the repaired side (felt like pain around the anchors), and I felt pain near back of the shoulder/outer trap on unrepaired side.... which basically happens when I do anything that stresses shoulder stability. I was benching slightly wide with my grip though...

I would hate to have to go through the surgery again since I've been able to train around it for the most part, doing cable work, dumbbell presses, machine flies (not using full range of motion).

Goals these days are strictly aesthetics.

 

[Gutterpump]

I was doing 5/3/1 with Periodization Bible assistance work (loads of volume) when I originally got injured. I loved the program though. I'm looking more into a standard bodybuilding / powerbuilding program now though, something that will let me work around the exercises listed above.

My main goals would be building overall size (and increasing conditioning / becoming leaner), with special attention on building a larger chest (it's lagging below the rest) while building size/strength of upper back / scapular region. I'm also enhanced, fwiw.

 

[napalm]

Do Dumbbells aggravate it?

 

[Gutterpump]

Do Dumbbells aggravate it?

Nope I'm ok with DBs, as long as I press from inside / hip press, and don't go wide (no DB flies). I've been trying to add in some reverse grip DB press to bring up the chest a bit more (upper chest especially).

 

[napalm]

Well, I'd suggest swap the flat bench for db's in a proven program. PHAT sounds like it'd suit your goals. Db's are a little different in programming though. Maybe increase like 5 lbs per month or something like that.

Are you sure your flat bench technique is spot on?

 

[Gutterpump]

It's definitely gotten much better in the past few years. I bench with elbows in, brace with tight lats, shoulder blades pinched back. I'm actually ok on flat bench these days when I throw it in from time to time and use a narrower grip than I used to. It was incline bench that was causing me issues lately.

I've also played with using something that looked like a trap bar on incline bench as well so I could change my grip up (palms facing each other). That worked well at the time. I've never really done DB pullovers, I could try that out too and see how it works for chest. Dips were the best though..

 

[Gutterpump]

I typically ramp up 5 lbs per week on my lifts before a deload and resetting (enhanced recovery). Usually more on the bigger lifts like squats.

 

[napalm]

I typically ramp up 5 lbs per week on my lifts before a deload and resetting (enhanced recovery). Usually more on the bigger lifts like squats.

That may be a bit aggressive buddy. I increase bench 5 lbs month, squat and dl 10 lbs/month. Try backing off a bit on the increases...

 

[Gutterpump]

That may be a bit aggressive buddy. I increase bench 5 lbs month, squat and dl 10 lbs/month. Try backing off a bit on the increases...

I'm on several anabolics. It's not my usual increase. My current routine has me hitting same lifts for same #s 3x per week, then the increase in following week. After I deload, I pull the #'s back a bit when restarting.

Loosely based off an HST template.

 

[Gutterpump]

I've switched things up to look something like this now:

1 Back
2 Chest/shoulders
3 Legs/arms
4 Rest
Repeat


This should give me more time to deal with any minor tweaks / pains (with mobility and TENS work). Been a while since I've done a split like this so I just need to figure out how I'm going to work out periodization over time.

 

[Kconan]

Heavy bentover rows have bothered my lower back in the past, and have used seated machine rows as a decent replacement since it forces the back to be straight.

Sucks about dips, its nowhere near as great as real dips but there is a machine that mimics this movement. Its seated and allows your back to be straight. What about bench dips? You wouldn't use as much body weight as standard dips, and so maybe less stress on you.

 

[Gutterpump]

Heavy bentover rows have bothered my lower back in the past, and have used seated machine rows as a decent replacement since it forces the back to be straight.

Sucks about dips, its nowhere near as great as real dips but there is a machine that mimics this movement. Its seated and allows your back to be straight. What about bench dips? You wouldn't use as much body weight as standard dips, and so maybe less stress on you.

I've tried assisted dips at high volume, but still need to be careful.
Right now I'm throwing in all sorts of various seated rows, wide grip, narrow grip, and seated Y cable rows (which are kind of like facepulls but even better I find).

I might try to throw in DB pullovers for chest, I've never really tried these in a routine before. I may have tried them a few times years ago but couldn't really feel the movement too well in my chest at the time.

 

[infinitepower]

Ive been dealing with AC joint osteolysis since December. I want surgery but I am scared of having too much downtime and losing my gains. I have been training for five years with no major breaks so I do not know how much my body would atrophy. Dips are definitely out of the question and after doing a lot of reading I have concluded that the extremes internal rotation and the trauma caused by dips is just not worth it. As far as benching goes i have widened my grip and do not use full range of motion so my arms dont go past my back.

 

[Gutterpump]

Ive been dealing with AC joint osteolysis since December. I want surgery but I am scared of having too much downtime and losing my gains. I have been training for five years with no major breaks so I do not know how much my body would atrophy. Dips are definitely out of the question and after doing a lot of reading I have concluded that the extremes internal rotation and the trauma caused by dips is just not worth it. As far as benching goes i have widened my grip and do not use full range of motion so my arms dont go past my back.

Best of luck if you choose to have the surgery. My down time was about 3 months but I wasn't truly back at it till more like 6. I was using cables and db's after 3 or so... But I was also using TB-500. You might also wish to look into BCP-157.

All of my coaches told me wide grip is bad on shoulders for bench, and to pull it in a bit narrower than I'm used to. Also, don't flare the elbows, keep them tucked and engage the lats as stabilizers. Takes the shoulders out of the equation more.

Right now I'm concerned about shoulder tightness in my repaired side. I'm a bit worried of a possible minor rotator cuff tear in my rear delt. It's constantly tight there. Strange because I recovered from my SLAP tear surgery over 2 years ago. I shouldn't be getting tightness on that side anymore.

 

[infinitepower]

Best of luck if you choose to have the surgery. My down time was about 3 months but I wasn't truly back at it till more like 6. I was using cables and db's after 3 or so... But I was also using TB-500. You might also wish to look into BCP-157.

All of my coaches told me wide grip is bad on shoulders for bench, and to pull it in a bit narrower than I'm used to. Also, don't flare the elbows, keep them tucked and engage the lats as stabilizers. Takes the shoulders out of the equation more.

Right now I'm concerned about shoulder tightness in my repaired side. I'm a bit worried of a possible minor rotator cuff tear in my rear delt. It's constantly tight there. Strange because I recovered from my SLAP tear surgery over 2 years ago. I shouldn't be getting tightness on that side anymore.

I tried BPC-157, I injected religiously for 4 weeks into my delt and above the AC joint, no relief. I heard wide grip is bad but supposedly it takes stress of the AC joint. I heard mumford procedure ( AC joint resection) recovery time isnt too bad. Anyone had it done please chime in.

 

[Gutterpump]

Do you have an impingement as well as damage to the AC joint? I don't think peptides would help with an impingement

 

[infinitepower]

Do you have an impingement as well as damage to the AC joint? I don't think peptides would help with an impingement

My ortho doc, one of the best in miami, FL said it was AC joint osteolysis after looking at an MRI. I might have impingement.

 

[Gutterpump]

TB-500 might help some of the symptoms if BPC-157 didn't help repair/heal. If you do opt for surgery, TB-500 can really improve recovery time as well. It helped me a ton in terms of pain and adhesions / spasms during the rehab period

 

[infinitepower]

sick can you PM me where I can find good tb-500 Gutterpump

 

[napalm]

I heard mumford procedure ( AC joint resection) recovery time isnt too bad. Anyone had it done please chime in.

I had one, but I had supra and infra tears repaired at the same time. It was an open repair everything was so fck'd up.

I would expect with a Mumford alone, 6-8 weeks...

 

[Gutterpump]

My supraspinatus gets really tight/sore on some chest/back days. Makes me wonder if there's a slight tear in there or something. Would they have been able to see it when they were doing an MRI for the labrum?

 

[infinitepower]

Not too sure but I can ask some of the rads at my job

 

[napalm]

Would they have been able to see it when they were doing an MRI for the labrum?

Not always per my surgeon. I asked him this specifically prior to my last repair.

 

[Gutterpump]

Not always per my surgeon. I asked him this specifically prior to my last repair.

So I ended up going to my old powerlifting gym last night since my old coach is moving to another city this week and I wanted to train with them again before he left. They were testing 1RM on bench. I gave benching a shot again, haven't benched consistently in years, probably haven't benched at all in the past year. I got almost 300# last night, no pain... Think I'll start flat benching again!

 

[infinitepower]

awesome gutterpump! hit it hard man

 

[Matthew1237]

I would def go back to lifting doing lifts like bench etc. I hurt my shoulder dipping and benching too heavy. All I did was start incorporating stretching and dropped the weight by like 70% and worked my way back up gradually. Don't baby injuries forever - you have to strengthen the muscles eventually so that you recover and improve.

 

[Gutterpump]

I would def go back to lifting doing lifts like bench etc. I hurt my shoulder dipping and benching too heavy. All I did was start incorporating stretching and dropped the weight by like 70% and worked my way back up gradually. Don't baby injuries forever - you have to strengthen the muscles eventually so that you recover and improve.

The problem is that I have a minor tear (unrepaired) in my right shoulder that will not heal (cartilage/tendon damage). It's not a muscle injury (MRI has shown mild SLAP tear). I also have a repaired SLAP tear and bicep tenodesis in my left shoulder, but it's still causing problems from time to time which leads me to think my supraspinatus has issues.

I hear what you're saying though, definitely haven't been babying the shoulders however as I did start to bench again post surgery, but with pain. Same with dips. I was doing plenty of dips post surgery, but as I got stronger/heavier, dips became a problem.

I've been doing more frequent PT work on my shoulders recently (including daily TENS usage) and last night I made sure to have perfect form, really locked in those lats and kept super tight with a narrower grip and feet locked to the floor. All of this is going to be necessary in order for me to keep benching now. I was just shocked at how much I could bench last night after not benching for so long! Was definitely not expecting that.

 

[infinitepower]

if your in the game long enough youll eventually sustain an injury

 

[Gutterpump]

if your in the game long enough youll eventually sustain an injury

It will definitely happen to people who continuously increase strength without paying much attention to mobility issues. I can personally speak to having kyphosis as the main reason I sustained shoulder injuries. Lifting with internally rotated shoulders will cause problems over time. Of course, certain movements will make you more prone to injury as well.

All I gotta say is, if only I knew then what I know now... An ounce of prevention...
I'm definitely doing far more maintenance work to keep myself lifting now, compared to if I had taken care of mobility issues, soft tissue work, etc in the past (ie: preventative maintenance)

 

[infinitepower]

It will definitely happen to people who continuously increase strength without paying much attention to mobility issues. I can personally speak to having kyphosis as the main reason I sustained shoulder injuries. Lifting with internally rotated shoulders will cause problems over time. Of course, certain movements will make you more prone to injury as well.

All I gotta say is, if only I knew then what I know now... An ounce of prevention...
I'm definitely doing far more maintenance work to keep myself lifting now, compared to if I had taken care of mobility issues, soft tissue work, etc in the past (ie: preventative maintenance)

I completely agree. I have tore up ac joint but hell with it im gonna keep lifting if i need surgery eventually well then i guess ill have to do it. I love lifting heavy and intense. I do a lot of mobitlity work with bands

 

[Gutterpump]

Have you looked into getting a TENS unit? As soon as I feel any sort of muscle spasm(s) coming on (from overdoing things), I'll pulse my TENS unit on the effected shoulder for an hour or more at a very high setting. Usually stops my shoulder from locking up for multiple weeks and I can keep on training as usual.

 

[infinitepower]

I have a good tens unit. Got a script for it and all :banana:

 

[Gutterpump]

Nice!! Yeah they're key. I use mine all the time.

 

[infinitepower]

I use it and alot of supps, dude this stuff call Boiron arnicare tablets help. I saw it at walgreens one day and I thought this must be garbage. They are tablets that melt under your tongue. i get home with my shoulder grinding and after an hour or so gone.

 

[infinitepower]

So they work dont know how but they do and they are all natural

 

[Gutterpump]

Thanks, I'll look into that. I tend to like things like BPC-157 / peptides, etc... I do take some supplements for joints too like sam-e, fish oil, etc. High dosed sam-e is realllly good but expensive. I also use lots of magnesium oil at night on my shoulders/upper body.

 

[infinitepower]

Wow gonna look in sam-e. i did a 4 week run of bpc-157 not much to note.

 

[Gutterpump]

There's an article here on AM where research was done into Sam-E versus a very strong prescription anti-inflammatory, to compare effects. The high dosed Sam-E won out I believe, or acted at least on par in terms of pain relief. I think the dose was over 1000mg. I'll usually dose my sam-e at about 1200mg daily. Sometimes 1600mg (in divided doses), but it gets expensive.

 

[Gutterpump]

TB-500 is another peptide that definitely works wonders. I used it post-op, doc told me I recovered my range of motion, etc in record time, was impressed. Of course a lot of hard work was involved too though lol