Fix winged scapula help

roiddistro

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So I have a winged scapula (probably not the best posture not a hunch back but Lil bit of anterior pelvic tilt and tiny bit of hunching not like massively ),

How do I do pushup plus and feel scapula working ?

Incline bench scapula raise ?

How slow or fast should I do the reps ?
 

badwolf42

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Posture exercises rarely work without extreme dedication to the exercise and concentration on proper posture. At least in the beginning you need to have someone help. And really pushup plus is a terrible exercise for the Serratis anterius, there are much better ones out there
 
braskibra

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Posture exercises rarely work without extreme dedication to the exercise and concentration on proper posture. At least in the beginning you need to have someone help. And really pushup plus is a terrible exercise for the Serratis anterius, there are much better ones out there
did you just make up your own opinion or spew information someone else thought they knew?

Comparison of pectoralis major and serratus anterior muscle activities during different push-up plus exercises in subjects with and without scapular winging.
Park KM1, Cynn HS, Kwon OY, Yi CH, Yoon TL, Lee JH.
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Abstract
To examine the differences between men with and without scapular winging in the electromyographic (EMG) amplitude and activity ratio between the pectoralis major (PM) and serratus anterior (SA) during 3 push-up plus exercises: (a) the standard push-up plus (SPP), (b) the knee push-up plus (KPP), and (c) the wall push-up plus (WPP), and to determine which exercise induced the lowest PM/SA ratio in each group. Twenty-eight men participated in this study (13 scapular winging group: age, 21.8 ± 2.1 years; 15 control group: age, 23.3 ± 2.0 years). Surface EMG of the PM, SA, and activity ratio between the PM and SA were collected during 3 push-up plus exercises, and the EMG data were expressed as a percentage of the reference voluntary contraction (%RVC). The normalized PM activity for subjects in the scapular winging group was significantly greater than that in the control group (79.16 ± 6.65 %RVC vs. 39.66 ± 6.19 %RVC, p ≤ 0.05). The normalized SA activity was significantly lower in the scapular winging group compared with the control group (39.80 ± 4.09 %RVC vs. 56.28 ± 3.81 %RVC, p ≤ 0.05) and was significantly decreased in the following order: SPP > KPP > WPP; 77.09 ± 5.12 %RVC > 39.48 ± 3.38 %RVC > 27.55 ± 3.07 %RVC, p < 0.016). The PM/SA EMG ratio was significantly greater in the scapular winging group compared with that in the control group across all exercises and was significantly lower during SPP than that during KPP and WPP in both groups (1.13 ± 0.58 vs. 0.53 ± 0.25 for SPP, 3.50 ± 2.07 vs. 0.92 ± 0.63 for KPP, 4.04 ± 3.13 vs. 1.19 ± 0.66 for WPP, p < 0.016). Greater PM activity was found in the scapular winging group, and the SPP is an optimal exercise for subjects with scapular winging, where maximum SA activation with minimal PM activation is desired



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4242944/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25364120
 

badwolf42

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did you just make up your own opinion or spew information someone else thought they knew?

Comparison of pectoralis major and serratus anterior muscle activities during different push-up plus exercises in subjects with and without scapular winging.
Park KM1, Cynn HS, Kwon OY, Yi CH, Yoon TL, Lee JH.
Author information
Abstract
To examine the differences between men with and without scapular winging in the electromyographic (EMG) amplitude and activity ratio between the pectoralis major (PM) and serratus anterior (SA) during 3 push-up plus exercises: (a) the standard push-up plus (SPP), (b) the knee push-up plus (KPP), and (c) the wall push-up plus (WPP), and to determine which exercise induced the lowest PM/SA ratio in each group. Twenty-eight men participated in this study (13 scapular winging group: age, 21.8 ± 2.1 years; 15 control group: age, 23.3 ± 2.0 years). Surface EMG of the PM, SA, and activity ratio between the PM and SA were collected during 3 push-up plus exercises, and the EMG data were expressed as a percentage of the reference voluntary contraction (%RVC). The normalized PM activity for subjects in the scapular winging group was significantly greater than that in the control group (79.16 ± 6.65 %RVC vs. 39.66 ± 6.19 %RVC, p <= 0.05). The normalized SA activity was significantly lower in the scapular winging group compared with the control group (39.80 ± 4.09 %RVC vs. 56.28 ± 3.81 %RVC, p <= 0.05) and was significantly decreased in the following order: SPP > KPP > WPP; 77.09 ± 5.12 %RVC > 39.48 ± 3.38 %RVC > 27.55 ± 3.07 %RVC, p < 0.016). The PM/SA EMG ratio was significantly greater in the scapular winging group compared with that in the control group across all exercises and was significantly lower during SPP than that during KPP and WPP in both groups (1.13 ± 0.58 vs. 0.53 ± 0.25 for SPP, 3.50 ± 2.07 vs. 0.92 ± 0.63 for KPP, 4.04 ± 3.13 vs. 1.19 ± 0.66 for WPP, p < 0.016). Greater PM activity was found in the scapular winging group, and the SPP is an optimal exercise for subjects with scapular winging, where maximum SA activation with minimal PM activation is desired

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4242944/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25364120
Well since you asked so nicely i am an expert in the field with extensive training with my doctoral degree and work with people on a daily basis.
The study has nothing to do with the question. Its a comparison of three different push up plus and which one out of them is optional. Its kind of like claiming toe in knee extension is the optimal vmo exercise when compared to neutral and toe out knee extension. It might be the best out of the three options but of course ignores superior exercise like the squat.
And in real life posture exercises rarely help with overall clinical findings without years of dedicated effort. Not to mention activating the muscle is not enough, you have to learn how to use it with large movements instead of just isolated movements.
 

roiddistro

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How should I work it guys and should reps be slow or fast ?,btw I'm a qualified pt but they don't teach use physio therapy stuff
 
braskibra

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Well since you asked so nicely i am an expert in the field with extensive training with my doctoral degree and work with people on a daily basis.
The study has nothing to do with the question. Its a comparison of three different push up plus and which one out of them is optional. Its kind of like claiming toe in knee extension is the optimal vmo exercise when compared to neutral and toe out knee extension. It might be the best out of the three options but of course ignores superior exercise like the squat.
And in real life posture exercises rarely help with overall clinical findings without years of dedicated effort. Not to mention activating the muscle is not enough, you have to learn how to use it with large movements instead of just isolated movements.


Cool story bro, it doesn't change the fact that your wrong. You clearly stated and I quote," push-up plus is a terrible exercise for the SA". Obviously, that is incorrect, and the MAJORITY of the DATA backs the push-up plus as a good exercise (> 20% MVC) for the SA. Did you happen to read any of the other abstracts I posted , there's also about a dozen or so more in the literature.

The original Decker et al paper:
Am J Sports Med. 1999 Nov-Dec;27(6):784-91.
Serratus anterior muscle activity during selected rehabilitation exercises.
Decker MJ1, Hintermeister RA, Faber KJ, Hawkins RJ.
Author information
Abstract
The purpose of this study was to document the electromyographic activity and applied resistance associated with eight scapulohumeral exercises performed below shoulder height. We used this information to design a continuum of serratus anterior muscle exercises for progressive rehabilitation or training. Five muscles in 20 healthy subjects were studied with surface electrodes for the following exercises: shoulder extension, forward punch, serratus anterior punch, dynamic hug, scaption (with external rotation), press-up, push-up plus, and knee push-up plus. Electromyographic data were collected from the middle serratus anterior, upper and middle trapezius, and anterior and posterior deltoid muscles. Each exercise was partitioned into phases of increasing and decreasing force and analyzed for average and peak electromyographic amplitude. Resistance was provided by body weight, an elastic cord, or dumbbells. The serratus anterior punch, scaption, dynamic hug, knee push-up plus, and push-up plus exercises consistently elicited serratus anterior muscle activity greater than 20% maximal voluntary contraction. The exercises that maintained an upwardly rotated scapula while accentuating scapular protraction, such as the push-up plus and the newly designed dynamic hug, elicited the greatest electromyographic activity from the serratus anterior muscle.

Unless it is true winging secondary to a nerve palsy then to correct a SICK scap shouldn't take more than a few weeks (in addition bony pathology which is un-correctable (significant throracic kyphosis) and present bilaterally).

If its secondary to participation in overhead sport (which can be normal or symptomatic), benchers shoulder, etc then the correction is actually quite simple.

rength Cond Res. 2010 Feb;24(2):567-74. doi: 10.1519/JSC.0b013e3181c069d8.
Effectiveness of strengthening and stretching exercises for the postural correction of abducted scapulae: a review.
Hrysomallis C1.
Author information
Abstract
Abnormal postural alignment can be detrimental to muscle function, is aesthetically unpleasing, and might contribute to joint pain. It has been unclear as to whether stretching or strengthening exercises can correct faulty posture such as abducted scapulae. It has been postulated that short and tight scapular abductor muscles or weak and lengthened scapular retractor muscles or a combination cause an abducted scapulae posture and that exercise can correct this condition. The purpose of this review was to compile the information on factors influencing scapular position at rest, examine the effectiveness of exercise interventions in altering scapular position, and make recommendations for future research. When examining the different methods that have been used to determine the position of the scapula, attention should be paid to their respective reliability and validity. Correlational studies have failed to detect a significant association between muscle strength and scapular position but found a significant relationship between muscle length and scapular position. Prospective intervention studies have shown that stretching the anterior chest muscles on its own or in combination with strengthening the scapular retractors can alter the position of the scapula at rest in individuals with abducted scapulae. Although these results are encouraging, there is a dearth of high-quality studies and more research is required to address the limitations of the studies. None of the intervention studies measured strength or flexibility pre or post intervention, so it is unclear how effective the intervention was in changing these factors and the actual mechanism behind the change. To determine which component of the intervention is most effective and whether the results are additive, future research should include stretching only, strengthening only, and combined stretching and strengthening groups. Follow-up measurements at some period after completion of the intervention would also provide important information as to the permanency of any changes. The practical implication is that caution must be displayed when considering the promotion of strengthening exercises to try and correct for abnormal scapular posture until further evidence becomes available.
 

badwolf42

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How should I work it guys and should reps be slow or fast ?,btw I'm a qualified pt but they don't teach use physio therapy stuff
Slow and lots of reps but you really need someone there to give you constant feed back.
 

badwolf42

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Cool story bro, it doesn't change the fact that your wrong. You clearly stated and I quote," push-up plus is a terrible exercise for the SA". Obviously, that is incorrect, and the MAJORITY of the DATA backs the push-up plus as a good exercise (> 20% MVC) for the SA. Did you happen to read any of the other abstracts I posted , there's also about a dozen or so more in the literature.

The original Decker et al paper:
Am J Sports Med. 1999 Nov-Dec;27(6):784-91.
Serratus anterior muscle activity during selected rehabilitation exercises.
Decker MJ1, Hintermeister RA, Faber KJ, Hawkins RJ.
Author information
Abstract
The purpose of this study was to document the electromyographic activity and applied resistance associated with eight scapulohumeral exercises performed below shoulder height. We used this information to design a continuum of serratus anterior muscle exercises for progressive rehabilitation or training. Five muscles in 20 healthy subjects were studied with surface electrodes for the following exercises: shoulder extension, forward punch, serratus anterior punch, dynamic hug, scaption (with external rotation), press-up, push-up plus, and knee push-up plus. Electromyographic data were collected from the middle serratus anterior, upper and middle trapezius, and anterior and posterior deltoid muscles. Each exercise was partitioned into phases of increasing and decreasing force and analyzed for average and peak electromyographic amplitude. Resistance was provided by body weight, an elastic cord, or dumbbells. The serratus anterior punch, scaption, dynamic hug, knee push-up plus, and push-up plus exercises consistently elicited serratus anterior muscle activity greater than 20% maximal voluntary contraction. The exercises that maintained an upwardly rotated scapula while accentuating scapular protraction, such as the push-up plus and the newly designed dynamic hug, elicited the greatest electromyographic activity from the serratus anterior muscle.

Unless it is true winging secondary to a nerve palsy then to correct a SICK scap shouldn't take more than a few weeks (in addition bony pathology which is un-correctable (significant throracic kyphosis) and present bilaterally).

If its secondary to participation in overhead sport (which can be normal or symptomatic), benchers shoulder, etc then the correction is actually quite simple.

rength Cond Res. 2010 Feb;24(2):567-74. doi: 10.1519/JSC.0b013e3181c069d8.
Effectiveness of strengthening and stretching exercises for the postural correction of abducted scapulae: a review.
Hrysomallis C1.
Author information
Abstract
Abnormal postural alignment can be detrimental to muscle function, is aesthetically unpleasing, and might contribute to joint pain. It has been unclear as to whether stretching or strengthening exercises can correct faulty posture such as abducted scapulae. It has been postulated that short and tight scapular abductor muscles or weak and lengthened scapular retractor muscles or a combination cause an abducted scapulae posture and that exercise can correct this condition. The purpose of this review was to compile the information on factors influencing scapular position at rest, examine the effectiveness of exercise interventions in altering scapular position, and make recommendations for future research. When examining the different methods that have been used to determine the position of the scapula, attention should be paid to their respective reliability and validity. Correlational studies have failed to detect a significant association between muscle strength and scapular position but found a significant relationship between muscle length and scapular position. Prospective intervention studies have shown that stretching the anterior chest muscles on its own or in combination with strengthening the scapular retractors can alter the position of the scapula at rest in individuals with abducted scapulae. Although these results are encouraging, there is a dearth of high-quality studies and more research is required to address the limitations of the studies. None of the intervention studies measured strength or flexibility pre or post intervention, so it is unclear how effective the intervention was in changing these factors and the actual mechanism behind the change. To determine which component of the intervention is most effective and whether the results are additive, future research should include stretching only, strengthening only, and combined stretching and strengthening groups. Follow-up measurements at some period after completion of the intervention would also provide important information as to the permanency of any changes. The practical implication is that caution must be displayed when considering the promotion of strengthening exercises to try and correct for abnormal scapular posture until further evidence becomes available.
Except that in real life it isn't easy to fix. Just because the muscle is activated doesn't really mean much. In other news i read an abstract that said diet and exercise doesn't work for everyone so i guess i should not recommended diet and exercise for weight lose ?

And in other news if you actually read even just the whole abstracts it's not as definitive as you want to make it sound. Lets just read the last one you posted.
'None of the intervention studies measured strength or flexibility pre or post intervention, so it is unclear how effective the intervention was in changing these factors and the actual mechanism behind the change'
' The practical implication is that caution must be displayed when considering the promotion of strengthening exercises to try and correct for abnormal scapular posture until further evidence becomes available'

Yes you can activate the muscle but even with the research you presented it clearly states there is no good evidence to promote strength exercise for corrections.
 

badwolf42

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And it should be noted that an abducted and SICK scapula is not the same as a winging scapula. Lets again talk about the real world, you do not present evidence about one condition when trying to make a point about a totally separate condition.
 
braskibra

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And it should be noted that an abducted and SICK scapula is not the same as a winging scapula. Lets again talk about the real world, you do not present evidence about one condition when trying to make a point about a totally separate condition.
ROFL: Priceless!
 
braskibra

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Posture exercises rarely work without extreme dedication to the exercise and concentration on proper posture. At least in the beginning you need to have someone help. And really pushup plus is a terrible exercise for the Serratis anterius, there are much better ones out there



Here let me quote you again where you misspell serratus anterior, and claim it is not a good exercise for the SA.

Then you can re-read all the data presented showing the PUP is a good exercise for SA activation, then you can go enjoy a nice big piece of humble pie while your staring at your doctoral degree.
 
braskibra

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Except that in real life it isn't easy to fix. Just because the muscle is activated doesn't really mean much. In other news i read an abstract that said diet and exercise doesn't work for everyone so i guess i should not recommended diet and exercise for weight lose ?

And in other news if you actually read even just the whole abstracts it's not as definitive as you want to make it sound. Lets just read the last one you posted.
'None of the intervention studies measured strength or flexibility pre or post intervention, so it is unclear how effective the intervention was in changing these factors and the actual mechanism behind the change'
' The practical implication is that caution must be displayed when considering the promotion of strengthening exercises to try and correct for abnormal scapular posture until further evidence becomes available'

Yes you can activate the muscle but even with the research you presented it clearly states there is no good evidence to promote strength exercise for corrections.
O captain, you seem unable to decipher the fact that this is two separate discussions:

1. You claim the PUP is not a good exercise for the SA
(obviously you are wrong)

2. What OP should do to correct his current dilemma
(which you have provided no answer too)
( I provided the above and backed with data, stretch anterior shoulder girdle musculature, strengthen scapular retractors, again this is best available evidence for altering scapular positioning)

apparently your not into evidenced based medicine, just keep using your real world examples im sure your clients love them
 
braskibra

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And it should be noted that an abducted and SICK scapula is not the same as a winging scapula. Lets again talk about the real world, you do not present evidence about one condition when trying to make a point about a totally separate condition.
Lets make this crystal clear, do you really think OP has scapular winging(generally considered due to nerve palsy), or do you think he means he has scapular dyskinesis with a malpositioned static scapular position from a poor resting posture and kyphosis (hunching in OP)

hint hint the answer is the second part
 

badwolf42

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O captain, you seem unable to decipher the fact that this is two separate discussions:

1. You claim the PUP is not a good exercise for the SA
(obviously you are wrong)

2. What OP should do to correct his current dilemma
(which you have provided no answer too)
( I provided the above and backed with data, again this is best available evidence)

apparently your not into evidenced based medicine
1. Just because a study says the exercise activates the muscle doesn't mean its a good exercise.

2. I gave him an answer (to go find a person to help ). And you did throw out a lot of research and claimed you had the answer when in truth none of the studies offer any solution. All you do is make the assumption that a stronger sa will help which isn't what the research says. Not to mention you try to use research that has nothing to do with the condition, ie an abducted scapula is not a winged scapula, they are two different conditions. If you claim to understand research and didn't just do a google search you wouldn't have presented that as evidence.

And evidence based medicine means a lot more than using research to base all your decisions on. Its only part of the equation. Evidence based clinical decision making is more than skimming googled abstracts.

Stop trying to pretend to be an expert since you obviously don't understand the subject as evident in your selection of studies that don't have anything to do with the condition and just include them because you don't know the difference.
 

badwolf42

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Lets make this crystal clear, do you really think OP has scapular winging(generally considered due to nerve palsy), or do you think he means he has scapular dyskinesis with a malpositioned static scapular position from a poor resting posture and kyphosis (hunching in OP)

hint hint the answer is the second part
Fantastic! Lets just make things up. Lets claim to understand science then make assumptions that can't be upheld by the presented evidence. Just because one is more likely doesn't mean you can jump to that conclusion.
 
asooneyeonig

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Posture exercises rarely work without extreme dedication to the exercise and concentration on proper posture. At least in the beginning you need to have someone help. And really pushup plus is a terrible exercise for the Serratis anterius, there are much better ones out there

with all the e-penis's flying about i think we missed this important question. what would be good exercises with a good rep, set, frequency plan to work that muscle?

maybe i missed this in those super long posts, but i am going to ask it anyway.
 

roiddistro

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That's all I want to know &#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;&#55357;&#56834;
 
braskibra

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with all the e-penis's flying about i think we missed this important question. what would be good exercises with a good rep, set, frequency plan to work that muscle?

maybe i missed this in those super long posts, but i am going to ask it anyway.
im glad you added the e-vagina
 

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