Conflicting advice from all my "Bro's"

[deadren]

My question stems from having a couple of different friends, both with great physique and training to achieve there pro-cards, having completely different advice for me on my training regiment. Was doing the Generic bulk routine, A & B days splits, hitting each twice a week. Currently doing Martin Berkhan inspired 3 day split of Back, Chest, Legs with accessory lifts in each respective category. Summed up: Doing both routines, my strength is increasing steadily, about 5% per exercise per week after achieving my rep range of 8.Berkhans is a reverse pyramid style of training 1 working set to failure, then following is .9% +1 rep The GBR was also reverse pyramid style but with 3 sets and rep ranges increasing from 6-8 then 8-10 and last 10-12 Saw strength on both but I miss working out. I feel like I'm not doing enough on the 3 day although I hit it with 125% intensityI'm gearing up to start a test prop, dbol cycle, I want the absolute most out of it and I want to train as much as I can while still being beneficial. What would your suggestion be on training regiment?

 

[deadren]

Think I'm going to run MI40 for the duration, any thoughts?

 

[KrisL]

my strength is increasing steadily, about 5% per exercise per week

Either you suck at math or your routine is better than anyone else's on this forum. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Endless routine switching is a good way to get nowhere.

 

[HIT4ME]

In my opinion, which will be heavily debated in this forum, the ONLY way to accurately assess progress from week to week is strength/performance gains. If you are training to failure and gaining 5% each week, don't change anything. I wouldn't even jump on any PEDs while this is occurring. Chances are you have plenty of room for growth without them at this rate. Just to put this in perspective, if you are curling 100 pounds today and gain 5% each week - in 4-5 months you will be curling over 200 pounds. That is all the improvement anyone could expect.

If you are gaining, it is working. Sometimes, as you get closer to your potential, the gains will slow. Even then it isn't wise to completely jump ship and start a brand new routine. Small changes at that point may keep the progress going. Don't hop around too much. Stick to what works.

 

[Tagger]

In my opinion, which will be heavily debated in this forum, the ONLY way to accurately assess progress from week to week is strength/performance gains. If you are training to failure and gaining 5% each week, don't change anything. I wouldn't even jump on any PEDs while this is occurring. Chances are you have plenty of room for growth without them at this rate. Just to put this in perspective, if you are curling 100 pounds today and gain 5% each week - in 4-5 months you will be curling over 200 pounds. That is all the improvement anyone could expect.

If you are gaining, it is working. Sometimes, as you get closer to your potential, the gains will slow. Even then it isn't wise to completely jump ship and start a brand new routine. Small changes at that point may keep the progress going. Don't hop around too much. Stick to what works.

Great advice right here.

 

[deadren]

Either you suck at math or your routine is better than anyone else's on this forum. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Endless routine switching is a good way to get nowhere.

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First thank you all for replying, really appreciate it.
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It's been a steady 5% now every time I hit my max rep range, so usually once I go down from an 8 rep count, increased 5% of total weight and then consistently hitting 6 reps and then within 2 more workouts, it will hit my rep max and I'll increase total weight again.
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I have ran into a problem tho, On my back day, I do weighted chins and then after is chest supported rows. The weighted chins have been increasing as planned, the rows however have plateaued off and I feel it's because I'm wearing out those muscles on the weighted chins.
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I just feel that only being in the gym 3 days a week isn't maximizing my gains and would like to increase frequency, because I feel I could hit my target rep range increases faster and therefor move onto adding increased weight faster. Especially if I'm about to run a mild cycle of prop and dbol with the increased recovery and strength I feel like this should be manageable, any thoughts on this?
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Also, after really considering the MI40 for myself and I don't speak for anyone else and obviously ben pukalski is wayy more of an authority than I'll ever be. But I like the training programs as HIT4ME described that has consistency to be accurately measured for progress. Not saying you can't track progress on bens, but I like a more linear approach.

 

[KrisL]

I say stick with what you've got for the most part. A little tinker here and there like switching the order on lifts or somesuch might help you enjoy the workouts a bit, but I wouldn't change routines just because you're starting a cycle. I've seen some advanced guys agree that the heavier you're lifting, the more time you'll need outside the gym to grow.

You're clearly growing on 3/w. There's nothing wrong with experimenting with 4/w, however. If the goal is sheer performance/growth, make sure you keep your evaluation objective: ex - are you lifting for fun, as therapy, because you felt fat today, to compete with someone else at the gym - rather than because the program dictated that you do the lifts.

As for being burned out by the time you get to a lift - that's not necessarily bad. I've seen people do that on purpose, in fact - to aid in faster recovery and joint protection, some lifters will do isolation leg curls/extensions/etc before squatting so that they are limited on how much weight they put on their backs by the time they get to a lift that can be crippling if maxed too frequently. Their legs definitely still grow.

 

[deadren]

Very good info, Krist. My reason for working out is really only to compete with myself. For size gains/ and strength. I have been shattering all my previous records and spent the majority of my research into nutrition, book after book, but now with nutrition the way I like it, I realized I may have been neglecting my training research to put myself in the optimal routine for growth. My thoughts are because my routine is 3 days a week, Wednesday, friday, sunday. < to avoid crowds. I could maybe cut 1 of the rest days out to be alternating off-on-off-on maybe to just speed up this process a little bit. I was seeing increases about the same on the 4 day program A & B days, hitting each muscle twice per week. So idk.. I was gaining on both? Although was bulking on the 4 day split and switched to 3 day split for my cutting.

 

[HIT4ME]

You are gaining at a phenomenal rate right now. Don't expect too much. Be happy with what you have. It won't always be like this, trust me. I would lay off the drugs FOR NOW and keep doing what you do. Seriously, KrisL hit it on the head, as blunt as he can be, you are doing better than 95% of the people on this board as far as consistent progress goes.

Adding in frequency does not mean you will see more gains. Your thinking is true to an extent, the more often you can repeat something, the faster your progress will be, but you are missing the bigger picture. Improving and getting bigger is NOT a function of working out. It is a function of overcompensation. The full process is stimulate (workout), recover (rest), overcompensate (build muscle). If you don't give adequate time for the recover and overcompensate parts of the process, you are just repeating the stimulus over and over and you won't get anywhere.

When the progress slows enough, you can try more or less frequency - and you may be surprised that less frequency may be the better of the two in some instances - but don't fix what ain't broken.

I have been training for 18 months and when I started I would pile additional weights on each lift every few weeks at most. Sometimes 10% increases in a weak on certain lifts. 6 months ago that slowed to a grinding halt. That is when adjustments are needed, and it can be frustrating finding exactly the right thing to adjust. There are so many factors. You need to have a framework that is as simple as possible, that you know works to some degree, in order to gauge adjustments.

All kinds of variables come into play. More or less intensity, frequency, or volume. Higher rep schemes, lower rep schemes, faster execution, slower execution, etc. You name it, there are so many factors to play with. Some of the factors will be so comfortable to you that you will even resist changing them a little. Others you will change on a whim and get nowhere.

Stick with what is working and pay attention to the small changes that make a difference before you TRY to change too much. You will get lost quickly otherwise.

 

[deadren]

Thanks man, that was exactly what I needed to hear. Will you give a quick look to the run as it stands, I added a set of shoulder shrugs 1x10 on back day, and 1x10 of chest flys on chest day. I also don't really understand the chins after weighted chins on back day, but I still do it? Oh and also added abs to back day too. Maybe want to switch that ab, to oblique though, as my abs are exposed well but my obliques are lagging.

A: Back day
Deadlift	2x3-5
Press	2x6-8
W. Chins	2x4-6
Rows	2x6-8
C.G. Chins	1x6-10
B: Chest Day
Bench press	2x6-8
Incline DB bench	2x6-8
Barbell curls	2x6-8
Triceps extension	2x6-8
C: Leg day
Squat or leg press	2x6-8
Leg curl	2x6-8
Leg extensions	2x6-8
Calves	1x12-16
Cable crunches	1x8-10

 

[HIT4ME]

I like that setup quite a bit actually. It reflects what I have been doing. My current routine is as follows:

Back Day:
Deadlifts - 1 warm-up set, 2X sets to failure
Pull-Ups - 2 sets to failure
Bent-Over Barbell Rows - 2 sets to failure
Under-handed Pull-Downs - 2 sets to failure
Bent-Over Dumbbell Laterals (rear delts) - 2 sets to failure
Barbell Curls - 2 sets to failure

Chest Day -
Incline Dumbbell Flyes - 1 warm-up, 2 sets to failure
Incline Dumbbell Presses - 2 sets to failure
Dips - 2 sets to failure
Dumbbell Side Laterals - 2 sets to failure
Tricep Rope Extensions - 2 sets to failure

Leg Day:
Squats - 1 warm-up set
Leg extensions - 1 warm-up, 2 sets to failure
Squats - 2 sets to failure
Leg Presses - 2 sets to failure
Leg Curls - 2 sets to failure

These workouts can be brutal. For a long while I was doing just 1 set to failure on most of these and saw progress. Doing just 1 set helped me learn to REALLY push all-out on things. I knew that was it, so I gave it everything and would go well past failure. In 15-20 minutes I was done with each workout and my muscles were fried. I think the intensity may have been a little much though. I tweaked it by dropping the intensity just a little and adding in a second set and things started growing again. I may have been able to switch things up in another way (same intensity and less work per body part for instance) - but I can test that when my gains stop.

Another split I used to use that I liked a lot:

Day 1 : Legs
Day 2: Chest & Biceps
Day 3: Off
Day 4: Back
Day 5: Shoulders & Triceps
Days 6 & 7: off

If you do this split, you can add in a little more volume for each the small muscles - shoulders, biceps and triceps - since they are being worked on less intensive days.

You should also focus on why you are in the gym. For me, I just want to gain muscle, be strong, challenge myself, get healthier, be able to move when I'm 80, be able to do things others can't, etc. I can accomplish this all with short, intense workouts that take up little time. If I had to workout 5 times a week for 2 hours a time, eventually stuff would come up and I'd stop doing it. It is good that you are itching to get in there every workout, keep that itch alive. Don't overdo it.

 

[Natestreo]

Just do what broscience YouTube videos say. Bulletproof. Kidding.

But in all seriousness... Don't fix it if it ain't broken. Sounds like you're doing great!

 

[deadren]

Yeah HIT4ME, the level of intensity needed is nuts for for the workout to make me feel accomplished, I just feel like the life is sucked right out of me and well, love it. And I agree I should wait to plateau before cycling, but wow, It's tempting with all that stuff ready to go.. Idk how long I'll actually be able to hold out. Going to run prop at 150mg eod with dbol at 40mg ed. 12.5mg armoasin daily, and igf-lr3 pwo bi-laterally for 4 wks with pct of Hgrnh 100mcg followed by normal nolva protocol.
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Was really liking the idea of new cell, and growth with increased maturation with the dbol igf combo.

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And yeah Natestero, all those damn marketing campaigns and puff I guess actually works on me, I'm constantly looking at **** asking myself hmm maybe I should switch, I have bad program ADD.

 

[HIT4ME]

I am far from anti-steroid, and can see the temptation - but I would lay off for at least 6-12 months man. You have a ways to go naturally first, and then you will know how far you could get on your own. You will also be able to go further because you will learn how to change to squeeze everything out of a program to get the most out of it. But I understand the temptation...

 

[deadren]

I shouldn't have bought it in the first place.. Although I've always wanted to do a log w/ pics and follow through with the whole thing. But hey I wanted to let you know, I really do appreciate the sound advice and motivation, I've been lurking for a long time and never actually posted anything, thanks for helping me pop my posting cherry.

 

[HIT4ME]

No problem, hope it helps.

The stuff should easily last a year - I'd save it. You are doing too good without it right now. If you do a run in a year or so, you will be much happier I think and you should see more from it (although some more experienced people should chime in). By this I mean, if you're gaining 5% now, and suddenly get to 10% while on, that isn't as good as if you are closer to your potential and can only gain 2-3% naturally and then get to 10% while on. And you have it ready and you can learn and it will give you something to work towards, knowing in 1-2 years you have a cycle waiting.

 

[deadren]

I see what your saying. Is it naive of me to think that cycling will speed up this process of achieving a result closer to my full potential, obviously gains will be lost but hopefully with the igf, I've read gains remain more consistently and the hgrnh for expedited natty recovery. Also I'm going to be eating at my new weight at the appropriate macros, that should also help retain, I mean really if done correct should the only lose at the end be majority of water? ( which will hopefully be kept at bay with the aromasin ) I don't want the dbol puff.

 

[deadren]

I don't want you to think I'm negating your advice, thinking out loud with input always helps me.

 

[HIT4ME]

I guess it comes down to a matter of what your goals are. Typically, your first steroid cycle is your most effective. I am far from an expert as the only thing I've ever used is 11-oxo and right now I'm on 11-KT, but from what I've read the first is usually the most effective. Yes, you will get to your natural potential faster if you start taking them, but at what cost?

If you just want to get to a certain point and do it as quickly as possible, go for it. If you have long-term goals, then it is probably wiser to wait. Some people won't want to go too far beyond natural potential anyway, so they won't wait and that is a personal decision.