Building an intelligent back routine / Deadlift questions

[huggy77]

is there a smart template of minimum things to hit to ensure all muscles are worked?

Like, pick one row, one pull-down, one deadlift movement...


I have been training for years, but i am starting to question everything i have ever done....

right now i deadlift on leg day (or there own day)
i do 2 pull downs movements, 2 rows.

i just try and hit a variety of widths and grip positions.

Do i do deadlifts at the beginning or end?

 

[PaulBlack]

I have always hit my biggest heaviest work first, ie: squats or deads if pressing BP's and or OHP's working to the smaller groups or exercises. I also don't really think of the body in parts much. And I "personally" do not really pre/exhaust parts either.
The deadlift trains the entire body, so don't just think of it as a back exercise per se. Just like squatting is not just for the legs.
(Depending on your goals!?), if you pay enough attention to the 5-7 big compound movements and put the majority of determination & focus on those, you do not have to worry about hitting certain angles or pull ups mixed with pull downs etc. etc. You are most likely better off sticking to a more proven routine and following it for a while and gain experience about your body's responses, then tweak later after you're more seasoned.

 

[PROness]

Keep it simple... pick a handful of auxillary exercises and stick with the big 7.

Keep the same grip and stance on all exercises and stick with them... the only thing you should think about is adding weight to the bar... that should be your guage regardless of your goal.

 

[huggy77]

I have always hit my biggest heaviest work first, ie: squats or deads if pressing BP's and or OHP's working to the smaller groups or exercises. I also don't really think of the body in parts much. And I "personally" do not really pre/exhaust parts either.
The deadlift trains the entire body, so don't just think of it as a back exercise per se. Just like squatting is not just for the legs.
(Depending on your goals!?), if you pay enough attention to the 5-7 big compound movements and put the majority of determination & focus on those, you do not have to worry about hitting certain angles or pull ups mixed with pull downs etc. etc. You are most likely better off sticking to a more proven routine and following it for a while and gain experience about your body's responses, then tweak later after you're more seasoned.

i dont get too fancy, i just am trying to fill out 15 -20 sets of back work w/out just doing 5 sets of each.... But maybe that would be fine.... Deadlifts, then a pulldown then a supported row.....

I have been lifting for 15 years or so... about 6'2 and 260, 15% bf...

 

[asooneyeonig]

simplest program that works, well there are many. a popular one right now is 5/3/1 with the BBB template. cant get much simpler. 4 movements, 1 per workout.

dan john has lots, like mass made simple. he also talks about 5 movements that should be in every workout and their importance:
-loaded carries
-squats
-hip hinge (like deads)
-pulling
-pushing

pavel tsatsouline also has many simplified programs. i have done his deads and dips program and got darn good results.

i once read somewhere that to keep things simple set up a 2 day a week program with only 2 movements in each. build your workout around that.

*EDIT*
and wow a lot of posts before i actually submitted mine. at first i only saw the OP. 15-20 sets. holy cow does that include your warmup? even then i cant see a need for that many. there is a point of diminishing returns. to me it seems like you are doing more volume than what is needed for adaptation and goes to show the amazing capabilities of the human body.

here is a thought. do no more than 100 reps for a movement per workout. if you were to do 20 sets for example, that would be 5 reps on average per set. a 5 rep max could be 85-90%. i cant imagine doing that 5 times. 3 to 5 for a great workout. 8-10 on my best day. i would have to likely drop things down to 50-70% to get that volume. i know when i do 5x10 @ 50% i struggle on the last set. does that make sense?

lets say you keep the idea of 15-20 sets. try spreading them out over several days so its more like 5-10 per workout and get the 15-20 per week. this may be a good time to bring up prilipens chart. here are many links on it:
https://www.google.com/search?q=prilipens+chart

 

[PaulBlack]

i dont get too fancy, i just am trying to fill out 15 -20 sets of back work w/out just doing 5 sets of each.... But maybe that would be fine.... Deadlifts, then a pulldown then a supported row.....

I have been lifting for 15 years or so... about 6'2 and 260, 15% bf...

Okay, well do you feel from your experience and how your body responds that you need 15-20 sets? I mean I can see volume, but I guess my question might be more of quality instead of quantity!?

Here is a sample pulling/leg/back W/O, I have done on a reg basis...
15" rack pulls 3x3
2" Deficit deads 3x3-5
RDL's 1x12 or 2x8 (maybe)
Squats 3x5 or maybe 2x12
Bent Rows 4x6-8 maybe be done here or...
Pull Dwns 2-3x8-10
Shurgs 3x15-20

If I put my heart into this,(especially the heavy deads) I am pretty beat up afterwards and could no way get much more out of any more rowing I would do.
Of course YMMV, as per your goals!? (mine are more strength and PLing) but I was just trying to get an idea what you were gunning for?
Personally, I probably hit my back/(rows say) 2- 2 1/2 times per week, (I am very much built for pulling) so day 1 might be bent rows, day 2 might be low cable rows and then a few sets of chins or pull dwns for say an extra W/O on weekend (maybe).
I do not get so caught up on which or number of sets, ( I go by feel) but go by how much weight you can be adding and or how hard you might be working!?

 

[PaulBlack]

simplest program that works, well there are many. a popular one right now is 5/3/1 with the BBB template. cant get much simpler. 4 movements, 1 per workout.

dan john has lots, like mass made simple. he also talks about 5 movements that should be in every workout and there importance:
-loaded carries
-squats
-hip hinge (like deads)
-pulling
-pushing

pavel tsatsouline also has many simplified programs. i have done his deads and dips program and got darn good results.

i once read somewhere that to keep things simple set up a 2 day a week program with only 2 movements in each. build your workout around that.

Yeah, simple is always better, since you can put so much focus into a few things instead of trying to conserve energy so you can get to wrist curls. Not that they are bad but just not a focus.

Dan John's "One Lift A Day" W/O, looks like a good one for concentration too. I have yet to try that one.