Help with making a split for my next "creatine" cycle

[White Menace]

Focus: shoulders and arms

Can train 5 days a week max
Was thinking
ABABC

C is shoulders arms

Not sure if anabolics talk I allowed in this sub forum so
Also for experienced bicyclists. What sort of overall volume do you do per muscle group

 

[OnionKnight]

did you just refer to creatine as an anabolic?

 

[White Menace]

did you just refer to creatine as an anabolic?

Opposite no idea if anabolics allowed on This section

 

[Sean1332]

did you just refer to creatine as an anabolic?

I think he doesn't realize that AAS is openly discussed here so he replaced it with the word creatine. I'm hoping that's it at least. That's just the optimist in me.

Menace-You haven't even given us any sort of information whatsoever to help you out either..

 

[White Menace]

I think he doesn't realize that AAS is openly discussed here so he replaced it with the word creatine. I'm hoping that's it at least. That's just the optimist in me.

You haven't even given us any sort of information whatsoever to help you out either..

I was thinking:
Push
Pull
Push
Pull
Shoulders arms

 

[OnionKnight]

i know im not seeing a cyclist that doesnt train legs

 

[White Menace]

i know im not seeing a cyclist that doesnt train legs

Was thinking of legs with either pull or push

 

[Sean1332]

I was thinking:
Push
Pull
Push
Pull
Shoulders arms

No. Your overloading your shoulders. They're being worked with all your pressing and pulling movements so adding an additional day for shoulders will possibly hinder your results

 

[Sean1332]

Was thinking of legs with either pull or push

Why not upper/lower/upper/lower

 

[White Menace]

Why not upper/lower/upper/lower

Not enough volume

 

[OnionKnight]

I think he doesn't realize that AAS is openly discussed here so he replaced it with the word creatine. I'm hoping that's it at least. That's just the optimist in me.

Menace-You haven't even given us any sort of information whatsoever to help you out either..

optimism gone yet?

 

[Sean1332]

optimism gone yet?

yes

 

[Sean1332]

Not enough volume

Volume doesn't mean the amount of days you train.

 

[PumpHouse]

I don't know how to ride a bike, is it rough on the shoulders?

 

[EatMoar]

Volume doesn't mean the amount of days you train.

I usually do 47 sets of bicep curls in the squat rack. Then proceed to flex shirtless for 30 minutes. Really works the ribletts you know?

 

[White Menace]

Can't do legs more than once due to knee problems

Monday:legs
Tuesday push
Wednesday pull
Thursday: push
Saturday push
?!

 

[rob112]

Maybe you should learn to use training wheels first?

 

[PumpHouse]

I usually do 47 sets of bicep curls in the squat rack. Then proceed to flex shirtless for 30 minutes. Really works the ribletts you know?

Not enough volume.

 

[Sean1332]

Can't do legs more than once due to knee problems

Monday:legs
Tuesday push
Wednesday pull
Thursday: push
Saturday push
?!

Don't do steroids.

Try a 4 or 5 day split, push/pull, or upper/lower

 

[EatMoar]

Don't do steroids.

Try a 4 or 5 day split, push/pull, or upper/lower

Technically he can use whatever compound he wants. Just saying. I doubt he has a knee injury he just is afraid to squat . We have s curl bro on out hands

 

[ZiR RED]

To the OP: Check out layne's PHAT program...and stick with real creatine.

To everyone else...what the hell has happened to the quality of the discussions here in the past few months? Is it because college is just getting out and summer is around the corner? Or am I just waking up to notice how stupid sounding my species has become..........

 

[CJ_Xfit89]

I don't deal well with regular mono but micronized or MCC works well.

Don't go all fancy.

 

[rob112]

To the OP: Check out layne's PHAT program...and stick with real creatine.

To everyone else...what the hell has happened to the quality of the discussions here in the past few months? Is it because college is just getting out and summer is around the corner? Or am I just waking up to notice how stupid sounding my species has become..........

Drowning in a sea of misinformation...

This thread is not an aberration by any means. This is every commercial gym USA. To the defense of posts like this thread this isn't new and it probably did sound good in OPs head from what he sees. IMO people learn most from what they see. He should listen to what you and Sean have said bc you two had his best interest in mind.

I think I speak for everyone when I say it is invaluable to have posters like yourself with the knowledge/experience/ability to help keep checks and balances in the forums.

 

[Sean1332]

PHAT would def be a good option. It'll have the volume that he wants, if he can except lifting 5 times a week instead of 6. Menace- PHAT will have you training your legs twice a week. I know you mentioned havin knee problems, but If you can work your legs once a week and cycle, then I'm sure you'll be fine to train them twice. IMO people that say they have knee problems, really just have weak lower bodies and don't do anything to strengthen it. I don't know if that's your case though

I just hate the idea of people going into cycles without training in check. To me, ideally, the people on AAS should have the most experience with diet and training because, ideally, they should have done everything possibly to maximize their gains naturally. That's never the case though.

 

[Swanson52]

Legs one day because of knee problems. *cough* bull**** *cough*

Legs one day because they're f'n hard, and nobody sees them more like it.

 

[rob112]

If it is a real knee problem I feel for you OP, BUT it could be you squat wrong and travel your knees over your feet instead of staying vertical and forcing you knees to the side and sitting your hamstrings/glutes backward.

 

[Swanson52]

If it is a real knee problem I feel for you OP, BUT it could be you squat wrong and travel your knees over your feet instead of staying vertical and forcing you knees to the side and sitting your hamstrings/glutes backward.

From my experience, there are very few knee problems that cannot be overcome if one is so inclined. I tend to agree with you-likely doing it wrong.

 

[rob112]

From my experience, there are very few knee problems that cannot be overcome if one is so inclined. I tend to agree with you-likely doing it wrong.

I agree. With the litany of info out there things can be done to help most cases. I found after some discussions with people in real life most people squat wrong, and most of them are taught wrong. Vicious cycle man. So many people squat by simply bending the knees and putting loads of pressure on the front of the foot; without good teaching how would they know better?

 

[Jiigzz]

When you said ABABC, what did the A and B stand for?

I think in your case an upper/lower/upper/lower would work well.

Also, that other last template you had is just awful. 3 push days over 1 pull day? I'm just going to be straight with you; if you think thats a good idea then you lack the knowledge to program a programme for yourself. You'll end up with all kinds of postural and muscular imbalances that way. Get on a proven program and get off the steriods; get your training down first.

Others had some good suggestions; P.H.A.T works well; google it and give it a shot for at ;east 6 months or so, the less you tinker and jump from one template to the next, (while still periodising and things) the better.

 

[pmdied]

Once I ditched the running shoes and went flat footed (socks only or Converse) my knees felt great and my weights went up significantly. I'm 39 btw, so these things do work well..

 

[White Menace]

Legs one day because of knee problems. *cough* bull**** *cough*

Legs one day because they're f'n hard, and nobody sees them more like it.

Got a decent routine down guys

Pretty much :
Chest arms
Back shoulders
Legs
Rest/repeat

Leg issue. Doing squats 3x a week and motocross weekly isn't good for joints.
I actually love doing squats.
Leg press is fine imo but the other exercises I hate.

 

[White Menace]

PHAT would def be a good option. It'll have the volume that he wants, if he can except lifting 5 times a week instead of 6. Menace- PHAT will have you training your legs twice a week. I know you mentioned havin knee problems, but If you can work your legs once a week and cycle, then I'm sure you'll be fine to train them twice. IMO people that say they have knee problems, really just have weak lower bodies and don't do anything to strengthen it. I don't know if that's your case though

I just hate the idea of people going into cycles without training in check. To me, ideally, the people on AAS should have the most experience with diet and training because, ideally, they should have done everything possibly to maximize their gains naturally. That's never the case though.

Tbh I have natty training down solid. My biggest issue was trying to bring triceps and shoulders up hence for that extra push day in which I was going to skip chest.
In which I was not sure about training frequency while cycling as most have different opinions.
My goal right now overall is to try and get y ffmi >24 up to 26 as fast as I could. Especially seeing as I was 16 when I started.

It sounds as if I'm defending myself cos of being arrogant. I apologise. Been in a ****ty mood for the past 2 months due to not being as to sleep in past 6 every morning.
Taking a week off from lifting to allow myself to recover.
I've learnt that to bring up a body part. Ad in an extra session or increase volume. Which is almost the same thing.

 

[OnionKnight]

To the OP: Check out layne's PHAT program...and stick with real creatine.

To everyone else...what the hell has happened to the quality of the discussions here in the past few months? Is it because college is just getting out and summer is around the corner? Or am I just waking up to notice how stupid sounding my species has become..........

its you waking up to how stupid humans have become

 

[asooneyeonig]

Tbh I have natty training down solid.

uhm, simply put, no you dont. and in a more complicated way, not even close. you dont even list intensity, sets, reps, rest, etc. and just by the body part split you show a massive lack of knowledge of training. i can only imagine how worse it will get if we saw everything else you think is solid training.

as other that are far better educated than you have recommended, get on a proven program like PHAT for at least 6 months if not a year. dont change it, tweak it, or ruin it in any other way cause you cant make it better. there is a reason why its a proven program. thousands have done it gotten results and that is a far greater success story than you getting results on anything you have done.

for your body's sake, please, get on a proven program. while on that year long program, come back and read, ask, learn. and maybe, just maybe in that year you can learn what proven program you will do next. after several years of that you may be able to decide your own accessory work while on a proven program for the main lift. and yes, i said lifts, not body parts. of course i am biased as i dont bodybuild, i build my body instead.

remember, its a marathon not a sprint.

here is a lesson i have learned after being in sports for more than half my life and being an athletic trainer for 9 years, stop doing your own programs. get on a proven program. ya ya ya. i know, im beating a dead horse. seriously though, the last few years while i approach 40 i am now stronger then ever and all i have done in that time was coan/phillipi deadlift program with 5/3/1 for everything, followed by a year of westside, and 5/3/1 since jan 1st. thats it. simple, and its working.

 

[EatMoar]

Once I ditched the running shoes and went flat footed (socks only or Converse) my knees felt great and my weights went up significantly. I'm 39 btw, so these things do work well..

I've heard that works well I'm going to snag a pair of converse tomorrow or something flat. Running shoes blow for squating and deadlifting. I second phat. That program worked so well but prepare to get tired and burnt out the volume is intense. I grew a good amount on it and now I structure all my lifts with older and hypertrophy days branching off of phat.

 

[White Menace]

uhm, simply put, no you dont. and in a more complicated way, not even close. you dont even list intensity, sets, reps, rest, etc. and just by the body part split you show a massive lack of knowledge of training. i can only imagine how worse it will get if we saw everything else you think is solid training.

as other that are far better educated than you have recommended, get on a proven program like PHAT for at least 6 months if not a year. dont change it, tweak it, or ruin it in any other way cause you cant make it better. there is a reason why its a proven program. thousands have done it gotten results and that is a far greater success story than you getting results on anything you have done.

for your body's sake, please, get on a proven program. while on that year long program, come back and read, ask, learn. and maybe, just maybe in that year you can learn what proven program you will do next. after several years of that you may be able to decide your own accessory work while on a proven program for the main lift. and yes, i said lifts, not body parts. of course i am biased as i dont bodybuild, i build my body instead.

remember, its a marathon not a sprint.

here is a lesson i have learned after being in sports for more than half my life and being an athletic trainer for 9 years, stop doing your own programs. get on a proven program. ya ya ya. i know, im beating a dead horse. seriously though, the last few years while i approach 40 i am now stronger then ever and all i have done in that time was coan/phillipi deadlift program with 5/3/1 for everything, followed by a year of westside, and 5/3/1 since jan 1st. thats it. simple, and its working.

So doing a typical program which doesn't adhere to any muscle imbalances I myself could have, means that ill be get healthier or look generic as I got **** proportions.
Exactly what is wrong with the splits? They adhere to the proportions I'm trying to build
Aka need bigger shoulders and triceps to catch up to the rest of my body.
Lets go over how to bring up a lagging body part shal we; add more overal weekly volume by A: increase frequency of that body part
B: add More Sets to the body part

Now if bodybuilding is a marathon. Why do people consistently search for ways to train more optimally to grow faster?
It's our nature? Yes.
And last I checked push pull was a proven split.

 

[Sean1332]

push/pull is a proven split. legs/push/pull/push/push is not. you don't imbalance your training to make up lagging muscle groups. yes, train what you're lagging in, but everything still has to be proportionate.

pushing one day, then pushing the day after, then looking for a 6th workout day right after isn't effective training.

 

[White Menace]

push/pull is a proven split. legs/push/pull/push/push is not. you don't imbalance your training to make up lagging muscle groups. yes, train what you're lagging in, but everything still has to be proportionate.

pushing one day, then pushing the day after, then looking for a 6th workout day right after isn't effective training.

Fair enough.
Just took a look at the phat and its almost identical to what I made in terms in terms of sets.
Might actually add a few sets of strength work with the main exercises (DL , squat bench rows)
Does seem like a good idea.
Splits the same as the hypertrophy part of the routine

 

[Jiigzz]

If you have lagging body parts then you can manipulate volume on any given workout day to get those lagging parts to catch up, rather than decreasing/ increasing frequency of other days. Keep the days the same (push/pull/legs/push/pull) or whatever (personally I think upper/lower/upper/lower work well as it forces balance between the upper and lower body) but instead just drop back a few sets on those groups you think are ahead of the rest.

IMO this works better than having an imbalanced routine from the offset and allows you to adjust as you need while ensuring you recover adequetly between muscle groups.

 

[Sean1332]

Fair enough.
Just took a look at the phat and its almost identical to what I made in terms in terms of sets.
Might actually add a few sets of strength work with the main exercises (DL , squat bench rows)
Does seem like a good idea.
Splits the same as the hypertrophy part of the routine

Don't change his program. The dude that wrote it is smart as ****.

 

[PumpHouse]

^ yep don't change anything, that layne himself doesn't approve.

 

[asooneyeonig]

So doing a typical program which doesn't adhere to any muscle imbalances I myself could have, means that ill be get healthier or look generic as I got **** proportions.
Exactly what is wrong with the splits? They adhere to the proportions I'm trying to build
Aka need bigger shoulders and triceps to catch up to the rest of my body.
Lets go over how to bring up a lagging body part shal we; add more overal weekly volume by A: increase frequency of that body part
B: add More Sets to the body part

Now if bodybuilding is a marathon. Why do people consistently search for ways to train more optimally to grow faster?
It's our nature? Yes.
And last I checked push pull was a proven split.

this is what i read, "i aint gonna listen. i know my shiznits yo fool. i know my body and you dont know me." seriously kid. i have heard this before and i have every time proven the individual wrong. i have seen it said by others and other that are more experienced and more and better educated have proven them wrong. i am a long time veteran of forums and this is nothing new and will continue to happen.

now, to attempt to answer your statements so i can then watch you disagree with facts.

you have imbalances due to you using a crappy program that you designed yourself. the eastern bloc countries have shown for decades they are superior in designing strength programs. a key point they focus on is very few movements and they always get strong and they hardly ever have weak links or imbalances. they design well balanced programs. many great proven programs that are recommended today are based upon eastern bloc ideals. in others words they work, they are far better than anything you could design as they were designed by research scientists and proven on thousands of athletes over a span of decades. you would have to live thousands of years and work out that entire time to try and prove that amount of evidence wrong.

many great coaches dont do any prehab work as they dont need it. they only use when it is needed which is when recovering from an injury. are you injured? are your imbalances diagnosed from a professional or just visual imbalances that you think you have?

also, when you come onto an open forum and ask for advice and you are given what you need, listen and learn. if you dont get what you want, it may be what you need, so listen and learn. when you get what you want, it may not be what you need. i gave you what you needed and only want to hear what you want. they are not the same.

as for why people look for faster ways, why not. what does that idea prove. that we are lazy americans that dont want to work for what only hard work will give us. all the great will say common things like, work hard and work consistently and that is the reason why they are great. liek ronnie colean once said, everybody wants to be be big but no one wants to move big weights. well there is a reason he is a great, he worked hard and worked consistently. and it also took him what, 10, 15, 20 years of hard work to get there. most will never get them over a lifetime of working as they want shortcuts and are not willing to work.

now, you dont have to listen to anything i have said as i have a feeling you wont anyways. you can continue on with half ass results with your half ass plans and your half ass effort and get no where. so i write this more for the benefit of others. so that they may learn how to get better results and not make the mistakes you want to make every day.

 

[Swanson52]

Aka "my shoulders suck, better hit em 3x/week". How bout noooo.

 

[White Menace]

I don't even know what's getting argued now. I mentioned my new split was similar to the hypertrophy days on phat. Now Apparently Im doing phat but modifying it? No I'm not.
I got no interest in doing a strength routine which seems like people think I'm doing.
This forums is more whatever than puahate.com

 

[JDog479]

this is what i read, "i aint gonna listen. i know my shiznits yo fool. i know my body and you dont know me." seriously kid. i have heard this before and i have every time proven the individual wrong. i have seen it said by others and other that are more experienced and more and better educated have proven them wrong. i am a long time veteran of forums and this is nothing new and will continue to happen.

now, to attempt to answer your statements so i can then watch you disagree with facts.

you have imbalances due to you using a crappy program that you designed yourself. the eastern bloc countries have shown for decades they are superior in designing strength programs. a key point they focus on is very few movements and they always get strong and they hardly ever have weak links or imbalances. they design well balanced programs. many great proven programs that are recommended today are based upon eastern bloc ideals. in others words they work, they are far better than anything you could design as they were designed by research scientists and proven on thousands of athletes over a span of decades. you would have to live thousands of years and work out that entire time to try and prove that amount of evidence wrong.

many great coaches dont do any prehab work as they dont need it. they only use when it is needed which is when recovering from an injury. are you injured? are your imbalances diagnosed from a professional or just visual imbalances that you think you have?

also, when you come onto an open forum and ask for advice and you are given what you need, listen and learn. if you dont get what you want, it may be what you need, so listen and learn. when you get what you want, it may not be what you need. i gave you what you needed and only want to hear what you want. they are not the same.

as for why people look for faster ways, why not. what does that idea prove. that we are lazy americans that dont want to work for what only hard work will give us. all the great will say common things like, work hard and work consistently and that is the reason why they are great. liek ronnie colean once said, everybody wants to be be big but no one wants to move big weights. well there is a reason he is a great, he worked hard and worked consistently. and it also took him what, 10, 15, 20 years of hard work to get there. most will never get them over a lifetime of working as they want shortcuts and are not willing to work.

now, you dont have to listen to anything i have said as i have a feeling you wont anyways. you can continue on with half ass results with your half ass plans and your half ass effort and get no where. so i write this more for the benefit of others. so that they may learn how to get better results and not make the mistakes you want to make every day.

Dude. You sound like you know what you're talking about. And I do agree with every bit of advice you post.... But this is a forum. And the way you come off makes me want to rage and rebel against you whether your right or wrong. If you want your good advice to be used (which I'm assuming you're here to help) and not be wasted, maybe tone it down I bit.

Not here to start a war. Just letting you know how my worthless ass is perceiving the situation.

 

[Jiigzz]

I don't even know what's getting argued now. I mentioned my new split was similar to the hypertrophy days on phat. Now Apparently Im doing phat but modifying it? No I'm not.
I got no interest in doing a strength routine which seems like people think I'm doing.
This forums is more whatever than puahate.com

If that works for you then run with it. Its good to understand the basis of how to make a good routine (i.e. balance, progression etc.) and then use that to build up a template of your own. Have a look into P/RR/S which, i did try for about a month but found it didn't fit my goals but it might better fit yours.

IMO nothing beats 5/3/1 + bbb template with a hypertrophy acessory template that hits muscle groups 2x per week.

Now go get hyoooge.

 

[Swanson52]

I don't even know what's getting argued now. I mentioned my new split was similar to the hypertrophy days on phat. Now Apparently Im doing phat but modifying it? No I'm not.
I got no interest in doing a strength routine which seems like people think I'm doing.
This forums is more whatever than puahate.com

Well I still think you're a vag for doing legs once a week and everything else as much as possible, but that's just me.

 

[White Menace]

Well I still think you're a vag for doing legs once a week and everything else as much as possible, but that's just me.

Haha. Tbh it all comes down to how I'm recovering and time restraints on whether I can get to the gym 6 days a week. If I can get to the gym 6 times that week. Ill do legs twice. Most weeks I don't have time for that. I'm not scared of training legs. Although they are last on priorities.

 

[White Menace]

If that works for you then run with it. Its good to understand the basis of how to make a good routine (i.e. balance, progression etc.) and then use that to build up a template of your own. Have a look into P/RR/S which, i did try for about a month but found it didn't fit my goals but it might better fit yours.

IMO nothing beats 5/3/1 + bbb template with a hypertrophy acessory template that hits muscle groups 2x per week.

Now go get hyoooge.

That looks really interesting. I might incorporate that idea. Thanks

 

[OnionKnight]

Haha. Tbh it all comes down to how I'm recovering and time restraints on whether I can get to the gym 6 days a week. If I can get to the gym 6 times that week. Ill do legs twice. Most weeks I don't have time for that. I'm not scared of training legs. Although they are last on priorities.

thats a pretty bad philosophy. you always give the kegs the shaft like that?

a better balance would be 5days a week with lower body being 2. not twice as much upper body as lower body