Crossfit injury rate

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    Crossfit injury rate


    Crossfit-based high intensity power trai... [J Strength Cond Res. 2013] - PubMed - NCBI

    nearly 20% of crossfit participants got injured. You have to wonder what kind of coach or trainer can put a person on a program in good conscience that injures 1 in 5?
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    Not condoning crossfit by any means, but look at how many morons with improper form injure themselves with basic weight training....
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    Quote Originally Posted by rreppert1 View Post
    Not condoning crossfit by any means, but look at how many morons with improper form injure themselves with basic weight training....
    This, no matter what you are doing, if you do it wrong you can get injured.

    I think the main thing with the crossfit is that people try to set Pr's every time and boost their ego. Since everything is speed and rep based in terms of your progress, a lot of bragging rights can be earned by doing too much.

    My 2 cents
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    Yeah, not sure of the statistics for xfit, but I am sure there could be an injury rate for any type of training. In fact I might go as far to say it could be like riding a motorcycle. You are going to fall eventually, so it is more when, not if. Knowing how to keep injuries to minimum, is key.
    Using technical lifts like the C&J and snatch can also come under fire if you are going to a state of fatigue, as now the bar/weight, momentum may be against you instead of with you if it is not controlled.
    Also any type of yanking or jerking just to be fast, without the slack being out of the joints or having some tension before the rep is started, is not good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rreppert1 View Post
    Not condoning crossfit by any means, but look at how many morons with improper form injure themselves with basic weight training....
    However, the average gym goer is not under the guidance and tutelage of a coach/trainer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    However, the average gym goer is not under the guidance and tutelage of a coach/trainer.
    I think this is a big point. The people training or coaching are supposed to be professionals with advanced training/education. Crossfit or commercial gyms, this is rarely the case.
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    It's way too easy for anyone to be a crossfit trainer. I hate how it only takes a weekend!
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    Quote Originally Posted by rreppert1 View Post
    Not condoning crossfit by any means, but look at how many morons with improper form injure themselves with basic weight training....
    I think its more to do with how the programs are developed rather than a persons overall knowledge. In saying that, getting proficient in cleans + snatches is not an easy task, nor are these movements meant to be used at the intensity and volume being adovated for by XFIT. Program developers should have taken this into consideration and recognised that these movements need to be taught by people who are qualified to do so and training of these movements needs to be personal (ie. watched carefully by an experienced person) until form is perfect. Average gym-goers do not understand the complexity of the movements (same as deadlifts) and altering from optimal form will subsequently, even if not immediatly, lead to injury.
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    If they came out with a study tomorrow saying that bodybuilding made your dick smaller I doubt anyone here would believe it/ quit bodybuilding. So why should I believe this... because one study says so?
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    What people need to remember is CFers use it in almost a sport type capacity, so the injury rate is going to be higher due to people competing. Look at any injury rate in competition sports and I would be willing to bet it's similar.

    As for people "always setting PR's" and "all the workouts are fast paced". That is not true. Yes it's common, but not constant

    Getting a cert is just a weekend class, which i disagree with, but you need to have an understanding walking into it....and a lot of cash!! But yes, that does need a lot of work, as I've seem some pretty sketchy trainers out there
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    Quote Originally Posted by PROness View Post
    If they came out with a study tomorrow saying that bodybuilding made your dick smaller I doubt anyone here would believe it/ quit bodybuilding. So why should I believe this... because one study says so?
    I think it is also the smoking mentality, where "I/me" won't get hurt or be one of those people or jump before the crap hits the fan.
    Most activities that have a risk ratio behind them, those risks are going to be pushed, downplayed or overlooked by the hardercores.
    And if you play the game long enough, no matter what it is, you are bound to get battle scars.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBlack View Post
    I think it is also the smoking mentality, where "I/me" won't get hurt or be one of those people or jump before the crap hits the fan.
    Most activities that have a risk ratio behind them, those risks are going to be pushed, downplayed or overlooked by the hardercores.
    And if you play the game long enough, no matter what it is, you are bound to get battle scars.
    EX: Football... which has an injury rate of 100% for those who make it to college ball and beyond.

    You don't see people saying that football should be banned or only idiots play football... hell where I'm from injuries are just a sign of mental toughness. Those who are strong play through the pain and those who are weak quit and bitch about how football sucks because they're a *****.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PROness View Post
    EX: Football... which has an injury rate of 100% for those who make it to college ball and beyond.

    You don't see people saying that football should be banned or only idiots play football... hell where I'm from injuries are just a sign of mental toughness. Those who are strong play through the pain and those who are weak quit and bitch about how football sucks because they're a *****.
    How many of those players, however, incur these injuries from their S&C programs?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PROness View Post
    If they came out with a study tomorrow saying that bodybuilding made your dick smaller I doubt anyone here would believe it/ quit bodybuilding. So why should I believe this... because one study says so?

    Why does it not surprise me the Dubstep douche bag is a Crossfit advocate?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    How many of those players, however, incur these injuries from their S&C programs?
    An equal number at best. Injuries on the field would only be compounded by strength training. Injuries that were otherwise negligible can become problems after lifting heavy weights prior to or after practice. It comes with the sport... with the amount of time spent in the weight room and on the field it's only a matter of time until an athlete injuries themselves in both environments. If I had a dollar for every time i heard someone say "I was power cleaning after practice when my shoulder..." or "I was squatting before practice when my 'insert leg ligament here' tore."

    Ask any college ball player and they will tell you after you spend half your life in a weight room lifting maximal weights and on a field smacking the hell out of each other head first... injuries are common place in both environments. **** happens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeg313 View Post
    Why does it not surprise me the Dubstep douche bag is a Crossfit advocate?
    I advocate what works. I have made solid strength, hypertrophy, and conditioning gains in the past off crossfit affiliate programs.

    You can make as good if not better hypertrophy gains off crossfit as a natural lifter than bodybuilding if you follow the diet.

    You can bitch all you want about the above comment but until you do the program for a respectable amount of time all you're doing is speculating with no credibility what so ever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PROness View Post

    I advocate what works. I have made solid strength, hypertrophy, and conditioning gains in the past off crossfit affiliate programs.

    You can make as good if not better hypertrophy gains off crossfit as a natural lifter than bodybuilding if you follow the diet.

    You can bitch all you want about the above comment but until you do the program for a respectable amount of time all you're doing is speculating with no credibility what so ever.
    Crossfit affiliates are not crossfit at all.

    They are people who use the brand name "crossfit" to sell their own product.

    Crossfit as written (crossfit WOD as posted on Crossfit.com) is poorly programmed and is a recipe for disaster.

    There are many "crossfit" gyms with exceptional programming (based upon their specific goals) but these gyms are only crossfit in name.

    Crossfit is a brand, people use it because the consumer recognizes it instantly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PROness View Post

    I advocate what works. I have made solid strength, hypertrophy, and conditioning gains in the past off crossfit affiliate programs.

    You can make as good if not better hypertrophy gains off crossfit as a natural lifter than bodybuilding if you follow the diet.

    You can bitch all you want about the above comment but until you do the program for a respectable amount of time all you're doing is speculating with no credibility what so ever.
    Whatever , to each his own. It just seems like a fad to me and the "thing to do" like there's a whole Crossfit culture/following thatll eventually burn out like any other fitness fad and i think it already has started its decent as i rarely hear much about it anymore compared to 3 or so years ago. A completely different fitness world I don't care to be a part of. Traditional weight lifting has been around decades and maintains it popularity and attraction because it works if done correct and the risk of injury is low if you know what your doing. Time will tell but it's my guess you're not gonna see many old crossfitters doing their thing but you always see plenty of old weight lifters still goin at it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PROness View Post
    An equal number at best. Injuries on the field would only be compounded by strength training. Injuries that were otherwise negligible can become problems after lifting heavy weights prior to or after practice. It comes with the sport... with the amount of time spent in the weight room and on the field it's only a matter of time until an athlete injuries themselves in both environments. If I had a dollar for every time i heard someone say "I was power cleaning after practice when my shoulder..." or "I was squatting before practice when my 'insert leg ligament here' tore."

    Ask any college ball player and they will tell you after you spend half your life in a weight room lifting maximal weights and on a field smacking the hell out of each other head first... injuries are common place in both environments. **** happens.
    I completly disagree. Hardly anyone at our Millienium campus ever incurs injury during training. The professionals there understand injury prevention + proper prehab/rehab techniques + proper exercise techniques to minimalise any injury. You fail to understand that S&C programs, those developed by and monitered by S&C professionals are not your typical gym programs.

    They develop programs that work, and work well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz

    I completly disagree. Hardly anyone at our Millienium campus ever incurs injury during training. The professionals there understand injury prevention + proper prehab/rehab techniques + proper exercise techniques to minimalise any injury. You fail to understand that S&C programs, those developed by and monitered by S&C professionals are not your typical gym programs.

    They develop programs that work, and work well.
    Agreed, and any s&c professional who injured their athlete in the gym would soon be an ex-s&c professional.

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    Well, to be fair, football injuries are almost entirely related to the contact sport of impact they are. Not to the training per se. I think comparing that to regular training is kinda apples to oranges. Now I have no statistics whatsoever, as to how many line men are injured lifting heavy. (I am sure there are a few)

    I think the bottom line is the extremity of how far one pushes the activity. If a coach is seeing a trainee losing so much form or pushing a said trainee and the trainee has more of a die hard mentality, then I would think the coach may step in, but not sure they "all" do really!?!? At that point, the risks are going to be elevated higher than a trainee who stops well under his limits.
    I have seen trainers in gyms push clients however, as I always thought that was a component of the job ie" motivation and some drill sarge stuff.
    That all said, doing safer exercises such as seated presses against a back support, etc. etc. etc. are going to have less impact, than an explosive exercise like C&J's/snatches that has quite a bit of technique involved in getting things right, to be really safe.
    I have no horse in the race, but again, the more you push an extreme, the higher the risk/payoff. If they feel it is worth it, so be it. I have no problems. I feel extremely heavy compound lifting is worth it for me, but would I say they are safe or even safer under the tutelage of a coach, maybe, but not near as safe as staying well within your means.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    I completly disagree. Hardly anyone at our Millienium campus ever incurs injury during training. The professionals there understand injury prevention + proper prehab/rehab techniques + proper exercise techniques to minimalise any injury. You fail to understand that S&C programs, those developed by and monitered by S&C professionals are not your typical gym programs.

    They develop programs that work, and work well.
    Where can I find this magical place where no one gets injured while training. Are there unicorns and bunnies on the walls for motivation as well? If you push yourself to the limit day in and day out on the field and in the weight room sooner or later injury will occur. Lifting heavy weights compiled with hours of on-the-field practice putting your body at risk; sooner or later somethings got to give. You can't tell me that injuries aren't common place in the weight room... I've seen it first hand all the time. I don't care how professional a S&C coach is, they can't control their athlete's bodies and how they react to constant stressors.


    Obviously you no nothing about football, because when I say we live in the weight room and on the field, I'm not kidding. No one ever tells you that when you sign up for pee-wee football that years down the road you've sold your body to the gridiron devil in exchange to legally beat the living **** out of other people with your head and shoulders.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBlack View Post
    Well, to be fair, football injuries are almost entirely related to the contact sport of impact they are. Not to the training per se. I think comparing that to regular training is kinda apples to oranges. Now I have no statistics whatsoever, as to how many line men are injured lifting heavy. (I am sure there are a few)

    I think the bottom line is the extremity of how far one pushes the activity. If a coach is seeing a trainee losing so much form or pushing a said trainee and the trainee has more of a die hard mentality, then I would think the coach may step in, but not sure they "all" do really!?!? At that point, the risks are going to be elevated higher than a trainee who stops well under his limits.
    I have seen trainers in gyms push clients however, as I always thought that was a component of the job ie" motivation and some drill sarge stuff.
    That all said, doing safer exercises such as seated presses against a back support, etc. etc. etc. are going to have less impact, than an explosive exercise like C&J's/snatches that has quite a bit of technique involved in getting things right, to be really safe.
    I have no horse in the race, but again, the more you push an extreme, the higher the risk/payoff. If they feel it is worth it, so be it. I have no problems. I feel extremely heavy compound lifting is worth it for me, but would I say they are safe or even safer under the tutelage of a coach, maybe, but not near as safe as staying well within your means.
    I think that there is a misunderstanding here. When I say people get injured in the weight room, I'm talking about in-season training, not off season training.

    Most of the time, if not all the time, injuries in the weight room are a result of something that was tweaked or pulled on the field and didn't pose a problem at the time. One day something just gives, it's hard to explain but I've seen people get hurt just warming up because they tweaked something on the field prior to lifting that day or previous day, and for whatever reason the movement they were performing just pushed their bodies a little too far.

    Of course the weight training probably helps to prevent more injuries than they cause, and if someone gets injured in the weight room in-season, odds are they were probably going to injure it on the field at some point anyways.
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    Often times bodybuilding vs crossfit is placed out there( completely different so the comparison makes no send to me) but nonetheless I completely agree the injury rate is way too high

    Any bodybuilder is worried about symmetry and posture at all times and if you are truly lifting like a bodybuilder, not a weight lifter odds are you won't be injured and posture is always in check.

    All the crossfiters I know have terrible posture from repeating the same exercises over and over and when you do this and your body gets put through these dramatic imbalances your injury rate seriously skyrockets.

    Plus never been a fan of jerking quick movements for anyone with less than 5 years of experience because they haven't built that mind muscle connection to follow through the entire lift with it
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeg313 View Post
    Traditional weight lifting has been around decades and maintains it popularity and attraction because it works if done correct and the risk of injury is low if you know what your doing. Time will tell but it's my guess you're not gonna see many old crossfitters doing their thing but you always see plenty of old weight lifters still goin at it.
    i would venture to say traditional weight lifting is thousands of years old. but its hard work so people dont want to do it.

    and i can sure attest to old strongman competitors still lifting. i have competed in some USAWA events and there are guys up in the 70s that compete that still blow away what i could do at nearly half their age.
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PROness View Post
    If I had a dollar for every time i heard someone say "I was power cleaning after practice when my shoulder..."
    so basically someone was fatigued after a workout and tried to perform a technical lift? of course they got hurt. it was not the lift that got them hurt but their ignorance on when to use the exercise. technical lifts should be done when fresh. they are skill based and should be treated with respect.

    if we continue on the path of looking at weight lifting, the olympic one, we see very low injury rates for those competitors. it is my understanding that olympic lifting as a sport has a lower injury rate then most any sport, including sports like tennis. so to say weight lifting is bad is like saying guns kill people. yes i went there. guns and weight lifting are tools so dont be a tool and learn to use your tools.

    im going to really be controversial now and state that crossfit kills. it kills more dreams than it makes. it injuries way too many people from arrogance and ignorance. is it better then nothing, well of course. if it gets someone off the couch and started on a path to their goals, great! we can only hope that person see it as a magic pill that has a short life span and gets on with what has been around for thousands of years due to its effectiveness, traditional weight training.
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.
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    Quote Originally Posted by asooneyeonig View Post

    i would venture to say traditional weight lifting is thousands of years old. but its hard work so people dont want to do it.

    and i can sure attest to old strongman competitors still lifting. i have competed in some USAWA events and there are guys up in the 70s that compete that still blow away what i could do at nearly half their age.
    I guess what I meant to say is that it has been more structured in the main stream within last few decades. Yes, weightlifting to build strength in general is much much older.
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    Did that dude up there just say CF kills?? I think that may be overboard just a touch
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    Still kicking, crossfit for a year and half now WITH a torn ACL from football. It's all about being careful and setting up for a lift to keep from being injured. I have strengthened my legs just as well with crossfit as strength training.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xfit10 View Post
    It's all about being careful and setting up for a lift to keep from being injured. I have strengthened my legs just as well with crossfit as strength training.
    And that is quite possible, but I am just curious as to what exercise you think has to be closer to perfect execution, especially when getting fatigued, a high rep snatch or C&J session, or a high rep leg press or squat session?
    I mean doesn't it take more to set up for the technical lifts than say a regular exercise without a plyo type move involved?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrivest View Post
    Did that dude up there just say CF kills?? I think that may be overboard just a touch
    its accurate if you keep it in the context it was used in. take it out of context, like all things if one does, and it will appear like i just threatened the pope. if you read further i go one to state how it can be beneficial. so was it a shock statement, yep. will it be taken incorrectly, yep.
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.
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    Quote Originally Posted by asooneyeonig View Post
    so basically someone was fatigued after a workout and tried to perform a technical lift? of course they got hurt. it was not the lift that got them hurt but their ignorance on when to use the exercise. technical lifts should be done when fresh. they are skill based and should be treated with respect.

    if we continue on the path of looking at weight lifting, the olympic one, we see very low injury rates for those competitors. it is my understanding that olympic lifting as a sport has a lower injury rate then most any sport, including sports like tennis. so to say weight lifting is bad is like saying guns kill people. yes i went there. guns and weight lifting are tools so dont be a tool and learn to use your tools.

    im going to really be controversial now and state that crossfit kills. it kills more dreams than it makes. it injuries way too many people from arrogance and ignorance. is it better then nothing, well of course. if it gets someone off the couch and started on a path to their goals, great! we can only hope that person see it as a magic pill that has a short life span and gets on with what has been around for thousands of years due to its effectiveness, traditional weight training.
    Actually in one particular case it was pre-workout. My buddy tore his rotator cuff at Indiana warming up doing hang power cleans, and the guy is practically the authority on the lift. It happens more than you people think, to very elite athletes, far more athletic than the average gym rat on this forum. The hang power clean which is the primary power lift in football strength training is hardly "technical." Also, we're talking about experienced athletes here who are at the second-highest level in the sport. This is no Joe Schmo doing hang power cleans because some self-proclaimed internet forum mogul told them it would increase their vertical jump and look cool at the same time. These are people who have been doing these lifts their whole lives, otherwise they wouldn't be at the top of the sport.

    Secondly, crossfit does not kill by any means if done correctly. Where you begin to see problems is in beginners who have no prior PL and OLY experience thrown into the frying pan with no proper training or a pot to piss in. I have been OLY and PL since I was 14 and I have never been injured from crossfit. Hell, there's been times where I could barely walk or I felt like a was going to die of hyperventilation, but never have I been injured to the point where I've missed a workout.

    The bottom line is, as I stated earlier, until you do the program for a respectable amount of time you're opinion is irrelevant. Period. This is the blind leading the blind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PROness View Post
    Where can I find this magical place where no one gets injured while training. Are there unicorns and bunnies on the walls for motivation as well? If you push yourself to the limit day in and day out on the field and in the weight room sooner or later injury will occur. Lifting heavy weights compiled with hours of on-the-field practice putting your body at risk; sooner or later somethings got to give. You can't tell me that injuries aren't common place in the weight room... I've seen it first hand all the time. I don't care how professional a S&C coach is, they can't control their athlete's bodies and how they react to constant stressors.


    Obviously you no nothing about football, because when I say we live in the weight room and on the field, I'm not kidding. No one ever tells you that when you sign up for pee-wee football that years down the road you've sold your body to the gridiron devil in exchange to legally beat the living **** out of other people with your head and shoulders.
    Injury occurs yes, but definitely not to 1 in 5 participants. You can push yourself to the limit day in and day out, but under proper control and guidance you can practically eliminate injury without compromising results. There lies a difference between pushing limits and going beyond your capabilities and hurting yourself.

    Injuries are not common in the environment in which I train; yes, injury's occur in gyms for people not under supervision or guidance or following specific individualised programs, but where I work, that is rarely, if ever the case.

    I play Rugby, so yes I understand the environment completely. Injury occurs on the field, that I have no doubt. But hardly ever occurs in the weight room.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PROness View Post
    Actually in one particular case it was pre-workout. My buddy tore his rotator cuff at Indiana warming up doing hang power cleans, and the guy is practically the authority on the lift. It happens more than you people think, to very elite athletes, far more athletic than the average gym rat on this forum. The hang power clean which is the primary power lift in football strength training is hardly "technical." Also, we're talking about experienced athletes here who are at the second-highest level in the sport. This is no Joe Schmo doing hang power cleans because some self-proclaimed internet forum mogul told them it would increase their vertical jump and look cool at the same time. These are people who have been doing these lifts their whole lives, otherwise they wouldn't be at the top of the sport.

    Secondly, crossfit does not kill by any means if done correctly. Where you begin to see problems is in beginners who have no prior PL and OLY experience thrown into the frying pan with no proper training or a pot to piss in. I have been OLY and PL since I was 14 and I have never been injured from crossfit. Hell, there's been times where I could barely walk or I felt like a was going to die of hyperventilation, but never have I been injured to the point where I've missed a workout.

    The bottom line is, as I stated earlier, until you do the program for a respectable amount of time you're opinion is irrelevant. Period. This is the blind leading the blind.
    This point, while perhaps accurate, is one of the reasons I dislike the idea of crossfit. CrossFit is targetted at Joe Bloggs; the marketing, the presence of CrossFit gyms everywhere eludes to this fact. Therefore there should be an obligation by XFIT coaches to provide proper training on complex lifts, a process which can take months.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulBlack View Post

    And that is quite possible, but I am just curious as to what exercise you think has to be closer to perfect execution, especially when getting fatigued, a high rep snatch or C&J session, or a high rep leg press or squat session?
    I mean doesn't it take more to set up for the technical lifts than say a regular exercise without a plyo type move involved?
    It's not the high reps that I feel is dangerous anything John rep is usually light enough to handle, it's the heavy 2-5 rep exercises that I worry about. But yes snatch and any kind of jerk are the ones that need to have good form on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    This point, while perhaps accurate, is one of the reasons I dislike the idea of crossfit. CrossFit is targetted at Joe Bloggs; the marketing, the presence of CrossFit gyms everywhere eludes to this fact. Therefore there should be an obligation by XFIT coaches to provide proper training on complex lifts, a process which can take months.
    I completely agree that crossfit certifications are way too easy to obtain and their marketing is dishonest. But for the experienced all-around lifter crossfit is a great idea. I support the idea of crossfit and several of the affiliate programs that are specialized such as SEALfit and Crossfit Football which are aimed at increasing strength and conditioning for the experienced athlete and not an inexperienced stay at home mom or 9-to-5 office worker.

    I think that crossfit mainsite is bogus but I support the idea that their affiliates send of solid strength programming combined with brutal conditioning for those who can take the demands.
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    A couple of articles about why crossfit can be dangerous especially with novices.

    http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2012...rints-and.html

    http://convictionwp.weebly.com/1/pos...s-me-nuts.html

    http://nunnsperformancetraining.blog...-crossfit.html

    Just something's to think about.

    Peace
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jiigzz View Post
    Injury occurs yes, but definitely not to 1 in 5 participants. You can push yourself to the limit day in and day out, but under proper control and guidance you can practically eliminate injury without compromising results. There lies a difference between pushing limits and going beyond your capabilities and hurting yourself.

    Injuries are not common in the environment in which I train; yes, injury's occur in gyms for people not under supervision or guidance or following specific individualised programs, but where I work, that is rarely, if ever the case.

    I play Rugby, so yes I understand the environment completely. Injury occurs on the field, that I have no doubt. But hardly ever occurs in the weight room.
    Maybe, maybe not. But I know for everyone who has played college ball they've been injured at least once in the weight room, whether it's serious, or just a small pull, to re-occurring back pain. It's happened, besides we have a knack of not reporting injuries and continuing to play with them.

    What I'm trying to say is that when you spend as much time (10 years at least) playing a sport that demands constant strength training and conditioning in a physically demanding environment on the field, injuries are inevitable, both in the weight room and on the field. It's just a part of the sport and anyone who's played at this level or higher will tell you. Just because an injury isn't reported doesn't mean it never happened, and in football injury is the kiss of death so we do all we can to hide it if it does occur.

    Just my experience.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PROness View Post
    The bottom line is, as I stated earlier, until you do the program for a respectable amount of time you're opinion is irrelevant. Period. This is the blind leading the blind.
    i was reading your response and was thinking, ok, he has a belief. cool. he is using examples that dont apply, but whatever that is common in debates. then i got to that part, LOL! i was like great, another fan boy. well that means im done as logic has no place in a discussion with you.

    here is a fact:
    Epidemiology of Collegiate Injuries for 15 Sports: Summary and Recommendations for Injury Prevention Initiatives
    from that we can see the highest injury rate of the sports looked at was football. which was 35.9 out of every 1,000 players. thats a huge 3.59% of players. crossfit was 20% which is 5.57 times higher injury rate than a sport that is all about impact. i love facts.

    the great thing about science is it does not need your belief to exist as fact. and seeing as how its belief vs fact here there is nothing more to say. something learned in my times a sales person, you cannot change anyones mind. you can only give them new information and allow them to make a new decision.
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.
  

  
 

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