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German Volume Training

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    German Volume Training


    I am curious if anybody has any experience with GVT. Personally I've always been a fan of BB programs highlighting frequency over volume and relatively heavy weight vs. higher rep routines.


    I'm considering GVT over the month of February and would appreciate any info. from people who have done it.

    Just how ****ty can I expect to feel? What did you personally find worked for recovery? Were you lifting sore and if so on which lifts and how frequently? What results did you achieve and how religiously did you stick to the program?



    As a note for discussion, I'm fine with links to articles or logs if you have them. I am not interested in a physiological argument based on principles around volume vs other methodologies. I want to hear first hand accounts from people who have actually done this or be directed to such people.


    Thanks in advance,

    TexasGuy.


    Edit:

    I've seen this structured three different ways:

    1. One exercise (squats for example) for ten sets of ten reps and done.
    2. A dual exercise selection where you may do squats for 5 sets of ten and then finish with a second lift targeting the same muscle groups.
    3. Multiple lifts being utilized as long as a target muscle group is hit 100 times.


    I'm not interested in number 3.

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    Ha, I like the similar thread feature here. Just saw it. Would still appreciate live discussion if possible.
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    i started GVT for the first time this monday....can't say i'm sore at all though, after reading and doing research i figured i would be but nothing so far....and workouts are done in like no time, so i kind of feel as if it's a lot easier than my normal routine

    maybe i just under calculated the weight i should be doing even though everything i've read said the 9th and 10th set should be almost failing towards the 10th rep which i came close to...i'll do it for another week and re-evaluate, also haven't squatted yet so i can only imagine how thats oging to feel
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    Thanks man. Keep me up to date if you don't mind.
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    gotta add....i'm doing the number 1 on your list as i feel it's makes the most sense for the goal

    however the first two lifting days i've had extra time at the end, which is why i'm questioning the weight amounts and time it takes to complete the workout, i later went on and did more lightweight work for each muscle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Young Gotti View Post
    gotta add....i'm doing the number 1 on your list as i feel it's makes the most sense for the goal

    however the first two lifting days i've had extra time at the end, which is why i'm questioning the weight amounts and time it takes to complete the workout, i later went on and did more lightweight work for each muscle
    Yeah, it sounds like maybe you should increase your working weight. It isn't supposed to be easy. Everything I've heard and read says you should do it like max 4 weeks and have your recovery protocol down pat as you will flirt with legitimate overtraining.

    The guideline I had was to find a 20 rep "max" weight for each lift and use that for the work out. That's what I plan to do and will adjust accordingly if necessary.

    I'm leaning torwards number one as well. It's the original, makes the most sense to me too and I get suspicious of coaches and trainers who slightly alter existing routines to stamp their name on them.
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    I have to ask though, at 5'5" and 100 pounds, how long have you been lifting? GVT is a pretty advanced routine, generally used to pull out of a hypertrophy plateau.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    Yeah, it sounds like maybe you should increase your working weight. It isn't supposed to be easy. Everything I've heard and read says you should do it like max 4 weeks and have your recovery protocol down pat as you will flirt with legitimate overtraining.

    The guideline I had was to find a 20 rep "max" weight for each lift and use that for the work out. That's what I plan to do and will adjust accordingly if necessary.

    I'm leaning torwards number one as well. It's the original, makes the most sense to me too and I get suspicious of coaches and trainers who slightly alter existing routines to stamp their name on them.
    yeah i figured i calculated everything accurately but this isn't science, so what a calculator tells u isn't always the case, i'm going to up the weight a bit next week

    and i really am 5ft5 but not 100lbs....ppl around here are a bit sensitive and i put it up there as a joke because some guy got his panties in a bunch
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    Quote Originally Posted by Young Gotti View Post
    yeah i figured i calculated everything accurately but this isn't science, so what a calculator tells u isn't always the case, i'm going to up the weight a bit next week

    and i really am 5ft5 but not 100lbs....ppl around here are a bit sensitive and i put it up there as a joke because some guy got his panties in a bunch
    Gotcha.
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    One word for German Volume Training -- vicious!! ESPECIALLY on leg day. the 10/10 on squats can be absolutely brutal if your weight is set at the right levels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pappybay View Post
    One word for German Volume Training -- vicious!! ESPECIALLY on leg day. the 10/10 on squats can be absolutely brutal if your weight is set at the right levels.
    I can imagine! Did you see good results?
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    So after a full week

    Again i can say, maybe i underestimated the amount of weight i was able to do...so i didn't get the soreness, worn out feeling, or any of that

    i have to add squatting was the hardest day i had, by the 8,9,and 10th set i started to really feel it, but thats what i've read is supposed to happen, i was sore the next day but not nearly as sore as i've gotten from my own routine and the soreness only lasted the next day which was odd for me since leg soreness is usually 2 days of soreness and a third day which is a bit less....we'll see how it works this week as i increased my chest numbers and had the similar struggles towards the last few sets

    for me the workouts are super quick though, i usually train about an hour and i can get through the given 100 reps for 2 muscles fairly quickly
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    Note based on my experience:

    - I find it very boring
    - It definitely helped me add muscle mass
    - I would do it again
    - If you are going to do it, do it exactly as it is laid out. I have seen so many people adapting it and changing it to two exercises of 5 x 10 each or even one guy who picked three exercises lol.
    - It should be done like this;

    Chest exercise set 1
    Back exercise set 1
    Chest exercise set 2
    Back exercise set 2
    Repeat for all 10 sets. It needs to be as a superset and it has to be antagonistic pairing.

    Charles says himself on his courses "People do GVT and change the recipe then complain it doesn't work. It is like putting blueberries in an apple pie. It just isn't an apple pie anymore".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Young Gotti View Post
    So after a full week

    Again i can say, maybe i underestimated the amount of weight i was able to do...so i didn't get the soreness, worn out feeling, or any of that

    i have to add squatting was the hardest day i had, by the 8,9,and 10th set i started to really feel it, but thats what i've read is supposed to happen, i was sore the next day but not nearly as sore as i've gotten from my own routine and the soreness only lasted the next day which was odd for me since leg soreness is usually 2 days of soreness and a third day which is a bit less....we'll see how it works this week as i increased my chest numbers and had the similar struggles towards the last few sets

    for me the workouts are super quick though, i usually train about an hour and i can get through the given 100 reps for 2 muscles fairly quickly
    If you have completed more than one leg workout and you have completed 100 reps both times the weight is too light. Pick a weight where you expect the reps to drop off on the last few sets.

    Also, if you aren't sore make sure you are being strict with the tempos. The TUT is there for a reason (some people overlook this).
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    i can see it being boring bdcc, which is why 4 weeks max on the program could be a plus, 4 weeks isn't a lot of time so you don't have to worry about dreading the workouts too long

    but bdcc did you ever have anyone get mad at you for taking up equipment for that long? i ask because i got to the gym earlier than usual last week on leg day and i guess before i usually get there and there was a ton of high school or college kids basically sitting there waiting for me to get done with the squat rack....i had to laugh at the dirty looks i was getting, especially with the light amount of weight i was using
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    Yes, logistically it can be a real pain, especially with squats in a busy commercial gym. Pull ups or dips work well because you can step out of the station between sets and let someone else have a go whereas with squats you obviously have to strip the weight, change the pin height etc.

    Maybe pick a quad dominant exercise which only takes up floor space such as a trap bar deadlift.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post
    I can imagine! Did you see good results?
    I did see some strength improvement, albeit what I would consider minimal. I think the gains come from pushing your muscles well beyond "normal" workout stress levels. The biggest thing I remember is the soreness in my glutes (from the squats). I was walking like I had used sandpaper for toilet paper.
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    What about size and definition?
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    so far this is a real mother****er.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    Note based on my experience:

    - I find it very boring
    - It definitely helped me add muscle mass
    - I would do it again
    - If you are going to do it, do it exactly as it is laid out. I have seen so many people adapting it and changing it to two exercises of 5 x 10 each or even one guy who picked three exercises lol.
    - It should be done like this;

    Chest exercise set 1
    Back exercise set 1
    Chest exercise set 2
    Back exercise set 2
    Repeat for all 10 sets. It needs to be as a superset and it has to be antagonistic pairing.

    Charles says himself on his courses "People do GVT and change the recipe then complain it doesn't work. It is like putting blueberries in an apple pie. It just isn't an apple pie anymore".
    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    If you have completed more than one leg workout and you have completed 100 reps both times the weight is too light. Pick a weight where you expect the reps to drop off on the last few sets.

    Also, if you aren't sore make sure you are being strict with the tempos. The TUT is there for a reason (some people overlook this).
    Make sure you follow this advice! I agree pretty much 100% and it isn't GVT unless it is 10x10 all for one exercise. The TUT and exhaustion towards the end of the 10x10 are probably the two biggest factors. The time under tension was murder on me.

    I hated and loved it all at the same time when I finally ran it this past year. Rotated between three workouts every five days (Chest/Back, Legs, Arms and Shoulders). I saw some solid size added during my run but it beat me up pretty bad and I will only revisit it for a 30 day period at a time if I do go back to it.
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    Thanks Bolt. I think one month will be my limit too.
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    Anyone here tried the GVT advanced by Poliquin also? It's more a 10x4-5 and he prescribes it for advanced lifters
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolt10 View Post
    Make sure you follow this advice! I agree pretty much 100% and it isn't GVT unless it is 10x10 all for one exercise. The TUT and exhaustion towards the end of the 10x10 are probably the two biggest factors. The time under tension was murder on me.

    I hated and loved it all at the same time when I finally ran it this past year. Rotated between three workouts every five days (Chest/Back, Legs, Arms and Shoulders). I saw some solid size added during my run but it beat me up pretty bad and I will only revisit it for a 30 day period at a time if I do go back to it.
    I like the idea of rotation between three-four workouts every five days. What rest days would one consider? perhaps lifting on a mon-wed-fri routine?
    Progress leads to success.
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    Quote Originally Posted by amarula View Post
    Anyone here tried the GVT advanced by Poliquin also? It's more a 10x4-5 and he prescribes it for advanced lifters
    The program I ran was pretty much exactly as laid out on one of Poliquin's articles. 4 weeks @ 10x10, 3 weeks of something moderate, then 4 weeks 10x6. I liked 10x10 much better than the 10x6 though.

    Quote Originally Posted by heyhuggy View Post
    I like the idea of rotation between three-four workouts every five days. What rest days would one consider? perhaps lifting on a mon-wed-fri routine?
    It was constantly changing which days each week since it was off a 5 day rotation rather than the 7 week schedule. If I remember right it was like:
    Mon- Chest/Back
    Tues- Legs
    Wed- Off
    Thurs- Arms/Shoulders
    Fri- Off
    Repeat so
    Sat- Chest/Back
    Sunday- Legs
    etc etc
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolt10 View Post
    The program I ran was pretty much exactly as laid out on one of Poliquin's articles. 4 weeks @ 10x10, 3 weeks of something moderate, then 4 weeks 10x6. I liked 10x10 much better than the 10x6 though.



    It was constantly changing which days each week since it was off a 5 day rotation rather than the 7 week schedule. If I remember right it was like:
    Mon- Chest/Back
    Tues- Legs
    Wed- Off
    Thurs- Arms/Shoulders
    Fri- Off
    Repeat so
    Sat- Chest/Back
    Sunday- Legs
    etc etc
    I'll be honest for the past few years my programs have never been strict, not really taking my goals into account, just switching up programs every 4-6 weeks. It's time to get set on a program, I've taken a couple weeks off from heavy lifting to focus on building my diet and finding that perfect program for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by heyhuggy View Post
    I'll be honest for the past few years my programs have never been strict, not really taking my goals into account, just switching up programs every 4-6 weeks. It's time to get set on a program, I've taken a couple weeks off from heavy lifting to focus on building my diet and finding that perfect program for me.
    Props to you then! Don't stress over a perfect program tho. Finding what works best for each individual takes time and experiences. The best programs are those you can adhere to and continue with even if they may not be "optimal".
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    GVT advanced was outlined by Poliquin itself but in a t-nation article. I'm on the first week of it because I usually respond better to lower reps protocols
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    Quote Originally Posted by amarula View Post
    GVT advanced was outlined by Poliquin itself but in a t-nation article. I'm on the first week of it because I usually respond better to lower reps protocols
    Yes I know. I was just stating I disliked the 10x6 so doubt I would run his advanced that was lower reps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolt10 View Post
    Yes I know. I was just stating I disliked the 10x6 so doubt I would run his advanced that was lower reps.
    I quite like the rep progression schemes where the intensity increases with each microcycle rather than the step loading protocol in standard GVT. That is my psychological preference though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    I quite like the rep progression schemes where the intensity increases with each microcycle rather than the step loading protocol in standard GVT. That is my psychological preference though.
    Ya I like the concept but the 10x6 burnt me out and beat me up (although it isn't the true progression you are talking about so probably just a moot point). One day I may try some of the rep progressions (and have still recommended it to others) just at this stage in my training didn't work out for me.
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    Well, fist of all, GVT was invented by vince gironda, but the germans are the ones that got the popularity for it. i however prefer girondas 8x8. But 10x10 is great to, both are brutal, but i found that 8x8 was harder
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    Just did trap bar deads 10x10 with 185 and my back/legs are shot!
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    Knees and elbows are really bugging me. Jumping in to such a high volume routine from low volume/heavy weight may have been ambitious. I plan to finish out the week and reassess. May give Power Muscle Burn a try.
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    Are the squats supposed to leave you exhausted several hours later? I will admit this was my first "session" of 10x10 and it was pretty tough. Not as intense as doing say, 4-6 reps at 90% but just seemed to wipe me out the rest of the day..
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    Anyone try dips for 10x10?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmdied View Post
    Are the squats supposed to leave you exhausted several hours later? I will admit this was my first "session" of 10x10 and it was pretty tough. Not as intense as doing say, 4-6 reps at 90% but just seemed to wipe me out the rest of the day..
    Same here. I'm sure it's a typical response to such high volume.

    Regarding your other question, I haven't tried dips. I'm doing flat barbell bench press for chest myself. I'm keeping the same lifts week after week. This will be my last week.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasGuy View Post

    Same here. I'm sure it's a typical response to such high volume.

    Regarding your other question, I haven't tried dips. I'm doing flat barbell bench press for chest myself. I'm keeping the same lifts week after week. This will be my last week.
    Thanks. I did overhand (not alternate) dead lifts with 135(total including bar) yesterday morning with no more than 60 seconds rest for 10x10 and it wiped me out the rest of the day.
    This evening I did 10x10 dips and 5x10 underhand pullups and I'm shot.
    I'll be interested to see your progress ..and its advisable to limit this workout to 4 weeks or can you stretch it to say 6 weeks?
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    I did dips as part of my GVT. Was intense.

    You could stretch it longer than 4 weeks but that depends on more personal variables like recovery, volume tolerance, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolt10 View Post
    I did dips as part of my GVT. Was intense.

    You could stretch it longer than 4 weeks but that depends on more personal variables like recovery, volume tolerance, etc.
    Did you add weight as you progressed or just slow down the tempo?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmdied View Post
    Did you add weight as you progressed or just slow down the tempo?
    Tried to add weight if I could get all 10x10. The tempo was brutal with dips...I hated every second of it.
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