Need advice on tweaking this program

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    Question Need advice on tweaking this program


    I'm trying to add a little more bulk and strength. I've gotten pretty good results with my current split, but I'm starting to hit a wall and need to switch things up a bit. I want to start on the program listed below. This is what the 7 day program will look like starting on Monday. Do you guys think it looks good, and if not, what would you change? Thanks!

    Also, I know cardio and bulking don't really go together much, but I want to throw some in here. Where would you put it and how much?

    Legs:
    - Squats (3 sets of 8)
    - Leg Press (3 sets of 8)
    - Leg Extension (3 sets of 8)
    - Standing Calf Raises (4 sets of 15)

    Chest:
    - Flat Bench Press (3 sets of 8)
    - Incline DB Press (3 sets of 8)
    - Weighted Dips (3 sets of 8)
    - Flat Bench DB Press (3 sets of 8)
    - Incline Butterfly (3 sets of 10)

    Back:
    - SLDL (3 sets of 6)
    - Chin-Ups (3 sets of 12)
    - Reverse Grip Lat Pulldowns (3 sets of 8)
    - Behind Neck Lat Pulldowns (3 sets of 8)
    - Barbell Rows (3 sets of 8)
    - Pullover Machine (3 sets of 10)

    Shoulders:
    - Military Press (3 sets of 8)
    - DB Shoulder Press (3 sets of 8)
    - Lateral Raises (3 sets of 8)
    - Reverse Pec-Deck (3 sets of 8)
    - Shrugs (4 sets of 10)

    Arms:
    - Standing Straight Bar Curls (3 sets of 8)
    - DB Preacher Curls (3 sets of 8)
    - 21's (3 sets)
    - Skulls (3 sets of 8)
    - Rope Pushdowns (3 sets of 8)
    - One-Arm Cable Extensions (3 sets of 8)

    Abs/Rest

    Repeat

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    Quote Originally Posted by IPOM
    I'm trying to add a little more bulk and strength. I've gotten pretty good results with my current split, but I'm starting to hit a wall and need to switch things up a bit. I want to start on the program listed below. This is what the 7 day program will look like starting on Monday. Do you guys think it looks good, and if not, what would you change? Thanks!

    Also, I know cardio and bulking don't really go together much, but I want to throw some in here. Where would you put it and how much?

    Legs:
    - Squats (3 sets of 8)
    - Leg Press (3 sets of 8)
    - Leg Extension (3 sets of 8)
    - Standing Calf Raises (4 sets of 15)

    Chest:
    - Flat Bench Press (3 sets of 8)
    - Incline DB Press (3 sets of 8)
    - Weighted Dips (3 sets of 8)
    - Flat Bench DB Press (3 sets of 8)
    - Incline Butterfly (3 sets of 10)

    Back:
    - SLDL (3 sets of 6)
    - Chin-Ups (3 sets of 12)
    - Reverse Grip Lat Pulldowns (3 sets of 8)
    - Behind Neck Lat Pulldowns (3 sets of 8)
    - Barbell Rows (3 sets of 8)
    - Pullover Machine (3 sets of 10)

    Shoulders:
    - Military Press (3 sets of 8)
    - DB Shoulder Press (3 sets of 8)
    - Lateral Raises (3 sets of 8)
    - Reverse Pec-Deck (3 sets of 8)
    - Shrugs (4 sets of 10)

    Arms:
    - Standing Straight Bar Curls (3 sets of 8)
    - DB Preacher Curls (3 sets of 8)
    - 21's (3 sets)
    - Skulls (3 sets of 8)
    - Rope Pushdowns (3 sets of 8)
    - One-Arm Cable Extensions (3 sets of 8)

    Abs/Rest

    Repeat
    Why don't cardio and bulking go together? Do HIIT 2-3 days a week for <30 minutes or so, just make sure you replace the caloric expenditure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED

    Are you training for an endurance event or for physique purposes [rhetorical]?

    Sprinting will do a number of things for you, besides improving cardiovascular conditioning burning a few extra calories.
    1. Will increase anaerobic enzymes. Hence, you'll be better able to utilize CHO for high intensity work.
    2. Increase glycogen synthase activity and density. Hence, more of the CHO you consume will be stored as glycogen.
    3. Increase beta-oxidation enzymes. Hence, you will be more efficient at using fat for fuel.
    4. Train the type II fibers of the lower body, as well as place more stress upon the global core (abs, obliques, etc.).

    1-3 will improve nutrient partitioning. In other words, more of what you eat will go towards muscle vs. fat. All this from 2-3 sessions of 6-10 sprints per session.

    Br
    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED
    This is a good thread.

    If your major goal is to build muscle while keeping your conditioning and body composition, then you need to make your cardio as efficient as possible.

    Long steady state sessions at very low intensities won't do anything for conditioning or your CV system. Steady state sessions at moderate to higher intensities will, but it will also cause a shift from anabolism to a more catabolic state by changing the test:cortisol ratio.

    HIIT is the way to go...however, high volume HIIT sessions may suppress anabolic pathways as well. So, short, high intensity, HIIT sessions, preferably immediately following training (like 5 30 sec sprints w/ 60 sec of rest) are probably optimal for improving conditioning and maintaining or reducing BF levels while allowing for maximal muscle gains.

    Br
    Br said it best.
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    Scrap the entire plan. You have an equal number of sets for your biceps as you do for your thighs. Also, your internal:external rotator ratio is very bad and will likely lead to postural problems and/or injury.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Scrap the entire plan. You have an equal number of sets for your biceps as you do for your thighs. Also, your internal:external rotator ratio is very bad and will likely lead to postural problems and/or injury.
    Do you care to make a suggestion? Or am I suppose to just quit lifting weights?
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    Quote Originally Posted by IPOM View Post
    Do you care to make a suggestion? Or am I suppose to just quit lifting weights?
    Focus on compound lifts, balance between internal:external rotators, and progression.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys
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    Quote Originally Posted by IPOM

    Do you care to make a suggestion? Or am I suppose to just quit lifting weights?
    WS4SB by Joe DeFranco :wink:
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    i dont see anything wrong with the above.... just like any other program, after 4-6wks it should be changed, or you will start hitting walls.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Focus on compound lifts, balance between internal:external rotators, and progression.
    So how would you tweak what I posted??? I have no idea what you're talking about with the internal:external rotator stuff. If you don't mind, please provide some DETAIL on what you mean.
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    I changed it a little. What do you think now?

    Legs:
    - Squats (3 sets of 8)
    - Leg Press (3 sets of 8)
    - Walking Lunges (3 sets of 10)
    - Leg Extension (3 sets of 8)
    - Seated Leg Curls (3 sets of 8)
    - Standing Calf Raises (2 sets of 15)
    - Seated Calf Raises (2 sets of 15)

    Chest:
    - Flat Bench Press (3 sets of 8)
    - Incline DB Press (3 sets of 8)
    - Weighted Dips (3 sets of 8)
    - Flat Bench DB Press (3 sets of 8)
    - Incline Butterfly (3 sets of 10)

    Back:
    - SLDL (3 sets of 6)
    - Chin-Ups (2 sets of 12)
    - Reverse Grip Lat Pulldowns (3 sets of 8)
    - Behind Neck Lat Pulldowns (3 sets of 8)
    - Barbell Rows (4 sets of 10)
    - Pullover Machine (3 sets of 10)

    Shoulders:
    - Military Press (3 sets of 8)
    - DB Shoulder Press (3 sets of 8)
    - Lateral Raises (3 sets of 10)
    - Reverse Pec-Deck (3 sets of 12)
    - Shrugs (4 sets of 10)

    Arms:
    - Standing Straight Bar Curls (3 sets of 8)
    - DB Preacher Curls (3 sets of 8)
    - 21's (3 sets)
    - Skulls (3 sets of 8)
    - Rope Pushdowns (3 sets of 8)
    - One-Arm Cable Extensions (3 sets of 8)

    Abs/Rest

    Repeat
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    WS4SB by Joe DeFranco :wink:
    HAHA! That's just it, I'm not a skinny bastard and I'm not a beginner. I'm just looking to evolve my program a little.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IPOM

    HAHA! That's just it, I'm not a skinny bastard and I'm not a beginner. I'm just looking to evolve my program a little.
    It's not just for skinny guys or beginners.
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    Why have you got stiff legged deadlifts for back?? They hit your hamstrings predominantly. If you want to do deads on back day use traditional deadlifts and put your STLD in your leg days.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IPOM View Post
    I'm trying to add a little more bulk and strength.

    Legs:
    - Squats (5 sets of 5) different reps/sets
    - SLDL (3 sets of 6) - this should be here since it mainly a leg exercise
    - Leg Press (3 sets of 8) - get rid of them
    - Leg Extension (3 sets of 8) - get rid of them
    -supplement with belt squats, step ups, lunges, pistols, front squats, etc
    - Standing Calf Raises (4 sets of 15)


    Chest:
    - Flat Bench Press (5 sets of 5) different rep/set
    - Weighted Dips (3 sets of 8) changed the order
    - Incline DB Press (3 sets of 8) do only 1
    - Flat Bench DB Press (3 sets of 8)
    - Incline Butterfly (3 sets of 10) - get rid of them

    Back:
    - deadlifts - you totally should have this somewhere
    - Chin-Ups (3 sets of 12) aim for 30 reps however you need to get to it. add weight as needed
    - Reverse Grip Lat Pulldowns (3 sets of 8) what is the purpose of this? whats different then the above movement?
    - Behind Neck Lat Pulldowns (3 sets of 8) - drop this exercise
    - Barbell Rows (1-2 sets of 15+) changed rep/sets
    - Pullover Machine (3 sets of 10)

    Shoulders:
    - Military Press (5 sets of 5) changed rep/set
    - DB Shoulder Press (3 sets of 8-12)
    - Lateral Raises (3 sets of 8) you can drop this
    - Reverse Pec-Deck (3 sets of 8)
    - Shrugs (4 sets of 10)

    Arms:
    - curls of some sort (3-5 sets of 8-20)
    - tricep work of some sort (3-5 sets of 8-20)

    Abs/Rest

    Repeat
    after seeing all those changes it makes you wonder if you should just scrap everything and start over. and i didnt go where rodja did on opposing movement balances. and dont worry about the whole changing every 4-6 weeks cause you will adapt crap. that is bodybuilding myth to sell more magazines. sure change can help, but the change can be as simple as increasing the weight each week not restructuring your entire program with an all new split. could you imagine if our bodies were actually that complicated. heck no one would ever make progress as they would be spending all their time planning and arguing about their programs.

    now i know some may say, hey you need to changed your exercises or your body will adapt. great! we want it to adapt. we want it to grow. it is my strong opinion that the first few weeks of a movement is mainly nervous system adaptation then the real work begins and growth occurs. so push through it! make those muscles grow. it is ok and i would recommend variations but seriously. if you are working your legs what more can you do but to extend and flex at the knee, hips, ankle. there are no other movements available to those joints. very large and very strong men have shown that minor variations are all you need. like a squat one week then just use a different bar the next time. still a squat.

    i would recommend taking a look at plans that are proven to work, to be well balanced, and can give you an insight on program design. we have westside for skinny bastards. if you want to be bigger then they will work, it does not matter if you are a bastard or not. :P or try any 5x5 program and/or 5/3/1. start with those and start to notice the similarities and apply those to your own program.
    you can call me "ozzie" for short.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IPOM View Post
    So how would you tweak what I posted??? I have no idea what you're talking about with the internal:external rotator stuff. If you don't mind, please provide some DETAIL on what you mean.
    Balance of internal:external rotators and planes is not a novel concept. Spend some time to learn about it and then apply it to your training. As you have it, you have very little horizontal extension and way too much horizontal flexion. You say that you're not a beginner, but do not know a somewhat basic concept of balance of the humerus to ensure proper posture and avoid impingements/injuries.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys
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    Quote Originally Posted by asooneyeonig View Post
    after seeing all those changes it makes you wonder if you should just scrap everything and start over. and i didnt go where rodja did on opposing movement balances. and dont worry about the whole changing every 4-6 weeks cause you will adapt crap. that is bodybuilding myth to sell more magazines. sure change can help, but the change can be as simple as increasing the weight each week not restructuring your entire program with an all new split. could you imagine if our bodies were actually that complicated. heck no one would ever make progress as they would be spending all their time planning and arguing about their programs.

    now i know some may say, hey you need to changed your exercises or your body will adapt. great! we want it to adapt. we want it to grow. it is my strong opinion that the first few weeks of a movement is mainly nervous system adaptation then the real work begins and growth occurs. so push through it! make those muscles grow. it is ok and i would recommend variations but seriously. if you are working your legs what more can you do but to extend and flex at the knee, hips, ankle. there are no other movements available to those joints. very large and very strong men have shown that minor variations are all you need. like a squat one week then just use a different bar the next time. still a squat.

    i would recommend taking a look at plans that are proven to work, to be well balanced, and can give you an insight on program design. we have westside for skinny bastards. if you want to be bigger then they will work, it does not matter if you are a bastard or not. :P or try any 5x5 program and/or 5/3/1. start with those and start to notice the similarities and apply those to your own program.
    I appreciate the advice. But that doesn't seem like a lot of volume at all. I've tried programs like this before and even if I go balls to the wall on each set, I still leave the gym feeling like I wanted to do more. What would you suggest to overcome this with a program with so few sets???
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Balance of internal:external rotators and planes is not a novel concept. Spend some time to learn about it and then apply it to your training. As you have it, you have very little horizontal extension and way too much horizontal flexion. You say that you're not a beginner, but do not know a somewhat basic concept of balance of the humerus to ensure proper posture and avoid impingements/injuries.
    Ok. Thanks.... I guess....
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    Quote Originally Posted by IPOM

    I appreciate the advice. But that doesn't seem like a lot of volume at all. I've tried programs like this before and even if I go balls to the wall on each set, I still leave the gym feeling like I wanted to do more. What would you suggest to overcome this with a program with so few sets???
    Work smarter. There is no need to leave yourself I'm the brink of exhaustion each and every time you leave the gym. I feel this goes hand in hand with DOMS; neither directly indicate an effective workout. Any idiot trainer can make you sore/tired/vomit/ what have you, but that doesn't mean they're making you better. Same idea
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    Quote Originally Posted by IPOM View Post
    I appreciate the advice. But that doesn't seem like a lot of volume at all. I've tried programs like this before and even if I go balls to the wall on each set, I still leave the gym feeling like I wanted to do more. What would you suggest to overcome this with a program with so few sets???
    Train each muscle twice a week. Apparently you've been working fatigue tolerance (very high volume, low frequency). You might see some improved results if you lower the volume per training session and train more frequently. Your weekly volume will be similar, or even higher, and you will improve your ability to tolerate more frequent training, which should lead to improved adaptations.

    If you want to learn more about movement planes, then you might want to search "upper body horizontal" or something that extent...as I and others have wrote ad nauseum about it on AM

    Br
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Train each muscle twice a week. Apparently you've been working fatigue tolerance (very high volume, low frequency). You might see some improved results if you lower the volume per training session and train more frequently. Your weekly volume will be similar, or even higher, and you will improve your ability to tolerate more frequent training, which should lead to improved adaptations.

    If you want to learn more about movement planes, then you might want to search "upper body horizontal" or something that extent...as I and others have wrote ad nauseum about it on AM

    Br
    That's what I have been doing with my current program. You think I should stick to that instead of working one body part a day?
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    I'm gonna start back up tomorrow. Give me your final thoughts fellas. Do you think I should go with one body part a day or with my current split??? I modified these based on the info posted in this thread...

    This is based on what asooneyeonig posted. Doesn't seem like enough to me...

    Legs: Monday
    - Squats (5 sets of 5)
    - SLDL (3 sets of 6)
    - Walking Lunges (3 sets of 10)
    - Standing Calf Raises (4 sets of 15)

    Chest: Tuesday
    - Flat Bench Press (5 sets of 5)
    - Weighted Dips (3 sets of 8)
    - Incline DB Press (3 sets of 8)

    Back: Wednesday
    - Chin-Ups (3 sets of 12)
    - Reverse Grip Lat Pulldowns (3 sets of 8)
    - Barbell Rows (1-2 sets of 15+)
    - Pullover Machine (3 sets of 10)

    Shoulders: Thursday
    - Military Press (5 sets of 5)
    - DB Shoulder Press (3 sets of 8-12)
    - Reverse Pec-Deck (3 sets of 8)
    - Shrugs (4 sets of 10)

    Arms: Friday
    - 21's (3 sets)
    - Pushdowns (3 sets of 20)

    Abs/Rest: Saturday

    Repeat: Monday


    And here's my current split, modified a little based on the info gathered here...

    MONDAY
    Flat Bench Press (5 X 5)
    Weighted Dips (3 X 8)
    DB Shoulder Press (5 X 5)
    Incline Butterflies (2 X 10)
    Lateral Raises (2 X 10)
    Reverse Pec-Deck (3 X 10)
    BB Shrugs (3 X 8)
    Tricep Pushdowns (3 X 12)

    WEDNESDAY
    Squats (5 X 5)
    Walking Lunges (3 X 10)
    Seated Leg Curls (3 X 10)
    Seated Calf Raises (4 X 15)
    Rev. Grip Lat Pulldowns (4 X 8)
    BB Rows (3 X 8)
    Face Pulls (3 X 10)
    Machine Preachers (3 X 20)

    FRIDAY
    Incline Bench Press (5 X 5)
    Flat DB Press (5 X 5)
    BB Shoulder Press (5 X 5)
    Pec-Deck (2 X 10)
    Lateral Raises (2 X 10)
    Reverse Pec-Deck (3 X 10)
    DB Shrugs (3 X 8)
    Skulls (3 X 20)

    MONDAY
    SLDL (5 X 5)
    Leg Press (5 X 5)
    Leg Extensions (2 X 10)
    Standing Calf Raises (4 X 15)
    Lat Pulldowns (4 X 8)
    DB Rows (3 X 8)
    Pullover Machine (3 X 10)
    21s (3 sets)
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    remember volume and intensity are inversely related. you are doing a lot more volume then what i recommended therefore you cannot have as high of an intensity level as you could on the suggestions i made.

    one way to make sure you are doing enough is to make the first exercise the goal for the day in that you go all out. think of it as learning to strain. you can start off a bit light and add a bit of weight, or keep the weight and on the last set go for more reps if you can. then add weight each week. like 5 for upper and 10 for lower. its the same idea as what is recommended in 5/3/1. you start light, you build a foundation, you program in a good skill/movement, then you get stronger and bigger over the long haul. which is why in my opinion it is such a brilliant and effective program.

    once you are done with that main lift, the other stuff is accessory work. so dont major in the minors. they are there to add to the main work not be the main work. dont think of it as doing more work to weak/small body parts but allowing you to do less on strong/big body parts so the weak/small parts can catch up.

    on your new wednesday i would recommend doing deadlifts. it would be more like doing lower body twice a week like what zir recommended. and i still dont see why you have chins then a lat pulldown exercise. just do more chins. and do 1 arm DB rows instead of barbell rows. if you want to do barbell rows do them like you would train your bench. i am a believer that to be balanced with pushing/pulling you should be able to bent over row what you can bench press.

    you could also do deadlifts on arm day to make sure you are fresh for the other back stuff on wednesday. in fact that does sound better. do deads and 1 arm high rep DB rows on arm day and do low rep barbell rows on wednesday.
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    Quote Originally Posted by asooneyeonig View Post
    remember volume and intensity are inversely related. you are doing a lot more volume then what i recommended therefore you cannot have as high of an intensity level as you could on the suggestions i made.

    one way to make sure you are doing enough is to make the first exercise the goal for the day in that you go all out. think of it as learning to strain. you can start off a bit light and add a bit of weight, or keep the weight and on the last set go for more reps if you can. then add weight each week. like 5 for upper and 10 for lower. its the same idea as what is recommended in 5/3/1. you start light, you build a foundation, you program in a good skill/movement, then you get stronger and bigger over the long haul. which is why in my opinion it is such a brilliant and effective program.

    once you are done with that main lift, the other stuff is accessory work. so dont major in the minors. they are there to add to the main work not be the main work. dont think of it as doing more work to weak/small body parts but allowing you to do less on strong/big body parts so the weak/small parts can catch up.

    on your new wednesday i would recommend doing deadlifts. it would be more like doing lower body twice a week like what zir recommended. and i still dont see why you have chins then a lat pulldown exercise. just do more chins. and do 1 arm DB rows instead of barbell rows. if you want to do barbell rows do them like you would train your bench. i am a believer that to be balanced with pushing/pulling you should be able to bent over row what you can bench press.

    you could also do deadlifts on arm day to make sure you are fresh for the other back stuff on wednesday. in fact that does sound better. do deads and 1 arm high rep DB rows on arm day and do low rep barbell rows on wednesday.
    Thanks for the info! So you think I would get better results from the first split I take it?...

    When you say to add deadlifts to arm day, do you mean regular deadlifts? So I would be doing SLDL on leg day and regulars on arm day?
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    Yes, there's a good amount of research supporting the need for more frequent training to induce strength and muscle growth in more experienced lifters. Don't fall into the muscle magazine "blast it once a week" rut.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Yes, there's a good amount of research supporting the need for more frequent training to induce strength and muscle growth in more experienced lifters. Don't fall into the muscle magazine "blast it once a week" rut.
    I see. So you're more of a proponent of the second split I listed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    Balance of internal:external rotators and planes is not a novel concept. Spend some time to learn about it and then apply it to your training. As you have it, you have very little horizontal extension and way too much horizontal flexion. You say that you're not a beginner, but do not know a somewhat basic concept of balance of the humerus to ensure proper posture and avoid impingements/injuries.
    Shoulder pronation is all too common in the gym. What he's saying is that your exercises aren't quite as balanced as they could be. Your chest and lats are getting a lot of work but your postural muscles are not. Despite being part of your back, your lats are pronators. in other words, over development of chest and lats will cause your shoulders to roll forward and together. Your back day should have more scapular retraction work where you focus on keeping your chest up and shoulders back, squeezing your shoulder blades together like a motherf***er. You can do this with most row variations.

    As for the rest of the program, maybe cut down on your workout days. Go to a 3 or 4 day program. Group pushing exercises with pulling exercises etc. Ive always had good success increasing intensity and lowering volume. You'd be surprised how much progress you can make by cutting down on the number of exercises you do each workout. You don't need to hit every angle and exercises to stimulate a muscle group. A 2 hour workout isn't necessarily better than an efficient 45 minute one. Switch it up for a month and then see what happens when you jack the volume back up
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Storm16

    Shoulder pronation is all too common in the gym. What he's saying is that your exercises aren't quite as balanced as they could be. Your chest and lats are getting a lot of work but your postural muscles are not. Despite being part of your back, your lats are pronators. in other words, over development of chest and lats will cause your shoulders to roll forward and together. Your back day should have more scapular retraction work where you focus on keeping your chest up and shoulders back, squeezing your shoulder blades together like a motherf***er. You can do this with most row variations.

    As for the rest of the program, maybe cut down on your workout days. Go to a 3 or 4 day program. Group pushing exercises with pulling exercises etc. Ive always had good success increasing intensity and lowering volume. You'd be surprised how much progress you can make by cutting down on the number of exercises you do each workout. You don't need to hit every angle and exercises to stimulate a muscle group. A 2 hour workout isn't necessarily better than an efficient 45 minute one. Switch it up for a month and then see what happens when you jack the volume back up
    Sorry, I definitely just repeated what everyone else said. For some reason the other replies didn't show up on my phone before
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED
    Yes, there's a good amount of research supporting the need for more frequent training to induce strength and muscle growth in more experienced lifters. Don't fall into the muscle magazine "blast it once a week" rut.
    I would agree with this cause a lot of people "don't" blast it enough.
    Plus I've seen a lot of guys in my gym hitting multiple muscle groups a day.
    I'm in order for a upper & lower body split.

    Hell some ppl even do a full body, tried that once (with cardio) too and that taxes your ass for sure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Storm16 View Post
    Shoulder pronation is all too common in the gym. What he's saying is that your exercises aren't quite as balanced as they could be. Your chest and lats are getting a lot of work but your postural muscles are not. Despite being part of your back, your lats are pronators. in other words, over development of chest and lats will cause your shoulders to roll forward and together. Your back day should have more scapular retraction work where you focus on keeping your chest up and shoulders back, squeezing your shoulder blades together like a motherf***er. You can do this with most row variations.

    As for the rest of the program, maybe cut down on your workout days. Go to a 3 or 4 day program. Group pushing exercises with pulling exercises etc. Ive always had good success increasing intensity and lowering volume. You'd be surprised how much progress you can make by cutting down on the number of exercises you do each workout. You don't need to hit every angle and exercises to stimulate a muscle group. A 2 hour workout isn't necessarily better than an efficient 45 minute one. Switch it up for a month and then see what happens when you jack the volume back up
    I'm picking up what you're laying down. I'm very strict with my form and ensure that my shoulders do not roll forward when I'm training chest. I also ensure my shoulder blades are pinched together and my back is arches when I train back... I'm big on form over weight and I'm always correcting my training partners form. If I can't do the exercise right with a specific weight, I'll lower the weight until I can do it right.

    I'm going to stick with the second split I listed above. I'll be working each muscle group twice a week. So you think DB shoulder press, lateral raises, and reverse pec-deck (posterior shoulder), and shrugs isn't enough shoulder work for one session? And then the same thing next session except BB shoulder press instead of DB? If not, what should I add to balance out my program?
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    I edited the above listed split B to reflect what I'm going to go with. I started today with the Monday routine and really felt good with doing flat bench and switching my main compounds to 5X5.

    The reason what I had pull ups listed with the lat pulldowns is because I was doing the pull ups as a warm up. Being an active duty Marine, I do a lot of pull ups and they're really not challenging. But they're good for a warm up. I like lat pulldowns because I can really focus on form and isolating the lats.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IPOM
    I edited the above listed split B to reflect what I'm going to go with. I started today with the Monday routine and really felt good with doing flat bench and switching my main compounds to 5X5.

    The reason what I had pull ups listed with the lat pulldowns is because I was doing the pull ups as a warm up. Being an active duty Marine, I do a lot of pull ups and they're really not challenging. But they're good for a warm up. I like lat pulldowns because I can really focus on form and isolating the lats.
    If bw isn't challenging add weight.
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