overtraining->increased cortisol->ab fat

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    overtraining->increased cortisol->ab fat


    I was wondering if the abdominal fat accumulated from increased cortisol as a result of over training will be eliminated once cortisol comes back down, even in a caloric surplus. Or will it only be removed once it comes time to cut....It's hard to gauge how much is actually "fat" as opposed to water retention b/c I know cortisol causes the retention of Na...Thanks

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    Cortisol is not the only thing responsible for fluid retention and I highly, highly doubt that you're overtraining.
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    You're not overtraining. You're over thinking this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Cortisol is not the only thing responsible for fluid retention and I highly, highly doubt that you're overtraining.
    Yea I've been doing 5/3/1 and assistance work has been in the lower rep range e.g. <8 reps for the prescribed 5 sets.. That and no deload weeks I feel have really caused me to be run down..

    And I know that sodium and carbs also are involved w/ fluid retention but I feel its mainly cortisol in my situation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcc23 View Post
    Yea I've been doing 5/3/1 and assistance work has been in the lower rep range e.g. <8 reps for the prescribed 5 sets.. That and no deload weeks I feel have really caused me to be run down..

    And I know that sodium and carbs also are involved w/ fluid retention but I feel its mainly cortisol in my situation.
    I still really doubt that you're overtraining. For starters, 5/3/1 isn't the most intense template out there. The "5" weeks have you doing, at most, 85% of your 1RM and assistance work is not going to result in overtraining. If you really think that cortisol is the sole reason that you have some ab fat, then you are seriously misguided.

    You need to realize that overtraining is a condition that does not happen overnight or even over a period of weeks. It takes months of improper programming and rest to truly overtrain. If you're feeling rundown, deload for a week and actually follow the template. I have a major issue with anyone that only lifts weights for 6-8 hours a week thinking that their body cannot recover properly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    I still really doubt that you're overtraining. For starters, 5/3/1 isn't the most intense template out there. The "5" weeks have you doing, at most, 85% of your 1RM and assistance work is not going to result in overtraining. If you really think that cortisol is the sole reason that you have some ab fat, then you are seriously misguided.

    You need to realize that overtraining is a condition that does not happen overnight or even over a period of weeks. It takes months of improper programming and rest to truly overtrain. If you're feeling rundown, deload for a week and actually follow the template. I have a major issue with anyone that only lifts weights for 6-8 hours a week thinking that their body cannot recover properly.
    Perhaps I'm retaining some serious water then..Carbs have been around 300-350 on lifting days and 150 on my rest days.Sodium I've been playing around with.. Around 2500-3000mg/day. Total cals are +500 @ ~3400 on lifting days and ~2250 on rest days..I don't think (I hope) it is fat accumulation..Also water is about 1.5gal/day..It's kinda been driving me nuts, I'm trying to find out an explanation.
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    Sounds like bloat to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Sounds like bloat to me.
    Man I hope and pray it is..I work pretty damn hard being disciplined in my diet to be gaining abdominal fat..I suppose I've gotta just expect to be bloated b/c of the increased CHO intake on this slow bulk...I'd like to drop carbs for a few days and see where I really am bf% wise, but that would only detract from my potential gains.. I'll sit in the sauna for about 30 mins post workout tomorrow and see where we are then..
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    I love some bloat, helps move bigger weights.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcc23 View Post
    Man I hope and pray it is..I work pretty damn hard being disciplined in my diet to be gaining abdominal fat..I suppose I've gotta just expect to be bloated b/c of the increased CHO intake on this slow bulk...I'd like to drop carbs for a few days and see where I really am bf% wise, but that would only detract from my potential gains.. I'll sit in the sauna for about 30 mins post workout tomorrow and see where we are then..
    You do realize that'll just make you store more water, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by RicFlair View Post
    I love some bloat, helps move bigger weights.
    I agree.. Especially on squat days I feel when I get down to parallel, my upper thighs act as a cushion of sorts to slow down the eccentric.. Also on bench, upper back feels larger and does the same thing..

    But I also like having the dry cut look when lifting as well..It's a delicate balance IMO
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    You do realize that'll just make you store more water, right?

    What, the sauna?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    You do realize that'll just make you store more water, right?
    I know it'll deplete sodium as well, but the body takes something like 12-24 hours to recognize that its Na levels are low, thus releasing aldosterone to retain sodium.. I plan on consuming my normal dietary intake of 2.5-3k mg w/ sufficient H20.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcc23 View Post
    I know it'll deplete sodium as well, but the body takes something like 12-24 hours to recognize that its Na levels are low, thus releasing aldosterone to retain sodium.. I plan on consuming my normal dietary intake of 2.5-3k mg w/ sufficient H20.
    I dont think the sauna is your answer.

    If you dont like the bloat drop your carbs down lower and increase your healthy fats to make up for the cals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3clipseGT View Post
    I dont think the sauna is your answer.

    If you dont like the bloat drop your carbs down lower and increase your healthy fats to make up for the cals.
    This I had in the back of my mind.. I had been feeling really run down from my training/nutrition and had been advised to really up my carbs to help me feel better..I think I'll lower carbs to ~225-250g on lifting days and see where I'm at..
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcc23 View Post
    This I had in the back of my mind.. I had been feeling really run down from my training/nutrition and had been advised to really up my carbs to help me feel better..I think I'll lower carbs to ~225-250g on lifting days and see where I'm at..
    The more carbs in my diet the crappier i feel. My joints begin to hurt and ache and my bloat goes through the roof. I feel much much better on low to no carbs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3clipseGT View Post
    The more carbs in my diet the crappier i feel. My joints begin to hurt and ache and my bloat goes through the roof. I feel much much better on low to no carbs.
    I don't think no carbs would work for me.. I gotta at least have some peri workout. Usually ~50 before and 100 after..Helps keep the muscles full, but not too much to where it causes definition to be blurred from bloat..
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    I dunno maybe I'm in the minority here but I just focus on setting PRs and eating a ton. I don't get caught up in the minutia
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcc23 View Post
    What, the sauna?
    Supercompensation effect from dropping a high amount of water within a short timeframe.
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    I'd also like to enter into this conversation that the body fat distribution/redistribution with cortisol typically trends towards an increase in visceral body fat. This is fat inside the abdominal wall, fat you cannot pinch.

    This is speaking strictly hypothetically, but I also believe that is why we see the large bellies on professional bodybuilders. Steroid use increases cortisol levels (though they do not bind or have the same effect of muscle tissue as they would in a natural state), and I believe that the elevation in Cort with the use of AAS results in a BF redistribution to the gut. This might be way larger roid bellies are associated with heavier users.

    Again, this is just speculation, and a cool study might be to get 20 or 30 professional bodybuilders down here to UK and run them through the dexa to see if indeed there is a high level of visceral fat, then maybe correlate that to quantity and length of use.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    I'd also like to enter into this conversation that the body fat distribution/redistribution with cortisol typically trends towards an increase in visceral body fat. This is fat inside the abdominal wall, fat you cannot pinch.

    This is speaking strictly hypothetically, but I also believe that is why we see the large bellies on professional bodybuilders. Steroid use increases cortisol levels (though they do not bind or have the same effect of muscle tissue as they would in a natural state), and I believe that the elevation in Cort with the use of AAS results in a BF redistribution to the gut. This might be way larger roid bellies are associated with heavier users.

    Again, this is just speculation, and a cool study might be to get 20 or 30 professional bodybuilders down here to UK and run them through the dexa to see if indeed there is a high level of visceral fat, then maybe correlate that to quantity and length of use.
    IIRC, heavy androgens also increase VAT storage, which would also explain this. Doesn't insulin also play a role in this equation as well?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    IIRC, heavy androgens also increase VAT storage, which would also explain this. Doesn't insulin also play a role in this equation as well?
    Yes, androgens also increase the VAT distribution. As does testosterone, which plays a role in why men show an "apple" fat distribution and women a "pear".

    I am not totally sure about insuline, as insulin and cort are usually inversely correlated (both statistically and physiologically). Now, when you get into exogenous insulin, that's another story.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Yes, androgens also increase the VAT distribution. As does testosterone, which plays a role in why men show an "apple" fat distribution and women a "pear".

    I am not totally sure about insuline, as insulin and cort are usually inversely correlated (both statistically and physiologically). Now, when you get into exogenous insulin, that's another story.
    That's what I meant: exogenous insulin usage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcc23 View Post
    I don't think no carbs would work for me.. I gotta at least have some peri workout. Usually ~50 before and 100 after..Helps keep the muscles full, but not too much to where it causes definition to be blurred from bloat..
    No no i wasnt saying do that, that is just what works well for me.
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    Cortisol is definitely something you can quantify.

    A simple diurnal (4x) saliva test can be bought online for about $150 (without a doctor's order), and it would give some indication of whether or not you're producing too much.

    As was said above though, cortisol probably isn't what's driving your ab fat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ad Fortitudo View Post
    Cortisol is definitely something you can quantify.

    A simple diurnal (4x) saliva test can be bought online for about $150 (without a doctor's order), and it would give some indication of whether or not you're producing too much.

    As was said above though, cortisol probably isn't what's driving your ab fat.
    I believe its causing the excess sodium retention however..
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcc23 View Post
    I believe its causing the excess sodium retention however..
    Do you have anything to back up this claim? Why are you so quick to point the finger at cortisol when it could be a myriad of issues that is the culprit behind your fluid retention/bloat?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Do you have anything to back up this claim? Why are you so quick to point the finger at cortisol when it could be a myriad of issues that is the culprit behind your fluid retention/bloat?
    Because I'm almost certain I'm overreaching/overtraining..It's not sodium b/c intake has been pretty normal. It's not carb bloat b/c I've been around 200g on lifting days and bw on rest days..Only other thing is hormones causing it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcc23 View Post
    Because I'm almost certain I'm overreaching/overtraining..It's not sodium b/c intake has been pretty normal. It's not carb bloat b/c I've been around 200g on lifting days and bw on rest days..Only other thing is hormones causing it.
    That's all testable man.


    Cortisol:
    You can get an AM serum cortisol test, or a diurnal saliva test to check (diurnal will be must more likely to show an issue).


    Overtraining:
    Start running some HRV testing. Low HRV is a good proxy for an "overtrained state."


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ad Fortitudo View Post
    That's all testable man.


    Cortisol:
    You can get an AM serum cortisol test, or a diurnal saliva test to check (diurnal will be must more likely to show an issue).


    Overtraining:
    Start running some HRV testing. Low HRV is a good proxy for an "overtrained state."


    If you really, really believe that you've got a problem, then put some money down and verify.
    You said those tests are around $150 bucks right? If so, I can't spare that kinda money atm
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcc23 View Post
    Because I'm almost certain I'm overreaching/overtraining..It's not sodium b/c intake has been pretty normal. It's not carb bloat b/c I've been around 200g on lifting days and bw on rest days..Only other thing is hormones causing it.
    So you have nothing to show it is cortisol? No shock there and overreaching and overtraining are VERY different states. Like I've already said, if you really think that you're at either one of those states, take some time to either deload or away from the gym completely and your woes will be solved.
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