Poll: Poll: Which Schedule for Size&Strength Gains

Upper/Lower Split Schedule & Rest

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    Upper/Lower Split Schedule & Rest


    Im gonna switch back to an Upper/Lower Split but need some help in setting up the schedule. Below is my workout plan. I might vary the rep ranges but for now, lets assume I will be doing 3 sets for ea exercise listed @ 6-8 reps. One Thing that confuses me is the amount of days rest a muscle group needs before hitting it again. So based on the volume listed below (workout takes about 1hr to 1:15min tops). Which schedule do you think would be best for Strength and Size gains. I am trying to bulk to 170.

    UPPER (A)----------------------- UPPER (B)
    Inc DB Bench------------------- Inc BB Bench
    Bent BB Row-----------------------T-Bar V-Grip Row
    Flat DB Press-----------------------Weighted Decline Pushups
    Weighted Pullups--------------------Nuetral Grip Chins
    DB Sholder Press--------------------Behind The Neck Press
    Incline DB Curls---------------------Barbell Curls
    Machine Lat Raise-------------------Seated DB Lat Raise
    Decline Hammer Skull----------------Decline DB Skull Crushers
    Incline DB Curls----------------------Barbell Curls

    LOWER (A)------------------LOWER (B)
    Deads----------------------- Leg Press
    Squats--------------------------Rom Deads
    Lying Leg Curl-------------------Squats
    Leg Press------------------------Lying Leg Curls
    Seated Leg Curl------------------Leg Extension
    Leg Extension--------------------Seated Leg Curl
    Stand Raise----------------------Stand Calf Raise
    DB Shrugs-----------------------Cage Shrugs
    Seated Calf Raise-----------------Seated Calf Raise

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    Bulking is going to be determined by diet far more than your lifting template. That being said, your upper days aren't remotely close to being balanced. You need far more pulling and external rotation work for starters.
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    I like the idea of an upper/lower split.
    Personally, I use a mon/tue, thur/sat scheme..ideally.

    I think you have too many exercises, and too many over lapping exercises. There are also some potentially harmful movements (behind neck presses), and like mentioned above, the workouts are imbalanced. There is also no need for leg extensions or leg curls. In fact (and I'm working on the blog), I think typical leg curls can in many instances do more harm than good.

    My tendency is to base one upper body workout on pull ups and over head presses; and another on bent over rows and bench presses.
    Base one lower body workout on squats and closed kinetic chain knee extension (split squats) and another on dead lifts and hip extensions (good mornings).

    Br
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    I do a variation of WS4DB III.

    Mon: Max lower
    Tues: max upper
    Wed: dynamic lower
    Thurs: power/rep upper
    Friday: killer circuit

    Have to put the maxs together like that due to training/games on sat

    Normal split is mon/tues thurs/Friday which I liked too
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    And yeah faaaar to many lifts/pointless ones.

    Stick to 1-2 compound lifts and through in 2-3 accessory lifts and you will be good
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    I like the idea of an upper/lower split.
    Personally, I use a mon/tue, thur/sat scheme..ideally.

    I think you have too many exercises, and too many over lapping exercises. There are also some potentially harmful movements (behind neck presses), and like mentioned above, the workouts are imbalanced. There is also no need for leg extensions or leg curls. In fact (and I'm working on the blog), I think typical leg curls can in many instances do more harm than good.

    My tendency is to base one upper body workout on pull ups and over head presses; and another on bent over rows and bench presses.
    Base one lower body workout on squats and closed kinetic chain knee extension (split squats) and another on dead lifts and hip extensions (good mornings).

    Br
    exactly this, nothing wrong w upper/lower split but i think you have way to much volume and too many movements that train the same muscle group. pick a big movement for the day and do 2 assistance exercises for that muscle group. be sure to allow for recovery and with the proper diet you can't help but make gains.

    good luck...
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    I dont understand what u guys mean when u say imbalanced but id like to know more, can you please edit my routine or tell me how to make it better and more balanced

    Aslo aassume i dona heavy and a light workout wouod you keep ranges the same for all exercises ie 6-8 for chest but then also 6-8 for bis or do u go higher repa on smaller muscle and if so then how many repa for those smaller muscles on the heavy and light days respectively
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    You need to think outside the box of muscle groups, and think of movements.

    Basically, for every horizontal push movement you perform (bench press, incline, etc.) you should do some sort of horizontal pull movement (row, t-bar row, etc).
    For every over head press you should do an over head pull (pull ups, etc.).
    For every pec fly (and front delt) type movement you should do a rear delt movement.

    Most people who have been following typical bodybuilding routines actually need more of the pulling movements than they do the pushing to balance everything out.

    With the lower body, you need to match each knee extension movement with a hip extension movement. The quads are a pennate muscle group, and have a lot more potential for volume growth than do the hamstrings, which are a fusiform muscle group. Sadly, you cannot see the hams well in the mirror, and most bodybuilders have wayyyy over developed quads vs. hams. In regards to strength or power or sprint athletes, this is a recipe for injury.

    My next concern would be lack of core work. Core work should include spinal flexion, spinal extension, trunk rotation, trunk anti-rotation, and gluteal isolation exercises. There are none of those in your program.

    Also, there's no exercises for the shoulder external rotators (or the rotator cuff). You don't need a lot, and they might only take 2-3 min of your workout, but they are important for performance and injury free lifting. I wrote an article about this, which you can check out on my blog jasoncholewa.com

    Hope that provides some info.

    Br
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    You need to think outside the box of muscle groups, and think of movements.

    Basically, for every horizontal push movement you perform (bench press, incline, etc.) you should do some sort of horizontal pull movement (row, t-bar row, etc).
    For every over head press you should do an over head pull (pull ups, etc.).
    For every pec fly (and front delt) type movement you should do a rear delt movement.

    Most people who have been following typical bodybuilding routines actually need more of the pulling movements than they do the pushing to balance everything out.

    With the lower body, you need to match each knee extension movement with a hip extension movement. The quads are a pennate muscle group, and have a lot more potential for volume growth than do the hamstrings, which are a fusiform muscle group. Sadly, you cannot see the hams well in the mirror, and most bodybuilders have wayyyy over developed quads vs. hams. In regards to strength or power or sprint athletes, this is a recipe for injury.

    My next concern would be lack of core work. Core work should include spinal flexion, spinal extension, trunk rotation, trunk anti-rotation, and gluteal isolation exercises. There are none of those in your program.

    Also, there's no exercises for the shoulder external rotators (or the rotator cuff). You don't need a lot, and they might only take 2-3 min of your workout, but they are important for performance and injury free lifting. I wrote an article about this, which you can check out on my blog jasoncholewa.com

    Hope that provides some info.

    Br
    Thanks so much Zir, can you help me tweak my program. I plan on wither going with Upper, Lower, Off, Repeat OR Upper, off, Lower, off, repeat

    In light of that I'd really be interested in seeing what changes you would make. I do like the upper.lower split becuase I prefer higher frequency but I do struggle with volume, rest, and now what you mention about balance. Anyhelp would be appreciated.
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    Try setting it up along these lines

    Mon: Focus on Bench press and bent over rows, then do some single arm or dumbbell over head press and pull work
    Tue: Focus on deadlift, a DL variation (good morning) and do some single leg squat work (like RFE split squats, lunges etc.)

    Thu: Focus on standing over head press and pull ups, and then do some single arm/dumbbell chest presses and rows
    Fri: Focus on the squat (high bar for bodybuilding/athletic purposes, low bar for power lifting), then do some single leg hip extension work (single leg RDL's, traveling lunges, etc.)

    On Mon do some scapula retraction (face pulls) and external rotator cuff work. On thu do scapula depression and external RC work
    On Tue do trunk rotation and anti-flexion work (barbell roll outs, bridges, etc.)
    On Thu do trunk flexion (band crunches, baby get ups, etc.) and trunk anti-rotation work.

    Br
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    Thanks again but I really dont understand all those terms is there template with recocmended volume, sets and reps somehwere?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwalker497
    Thanks again but I really dont understand all those terms is there template with recocmended volume, sets and reps somehwere?
    You can do, starting strength, 5-3-1, madcows, WS4SB, or west side barbell
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
    Try setting it up along these lines

    Mon: Focus on Bench press and bent over rows, then do some single arm or dumbbell over head press and pull work
    Tue: Focus on deadlift, a DL variation (good morning) and do some single leg squat work (like RFE split squats, lunges etc.)

    Thu: Focus on standing over head press and pull ups, and then do some single arm/dumbbell chest presses and rows
    Fri: Focus on the squat (high bar for bodybuilding/athletic purposes, low bar for power lifting), then do some single leg hip extension work (single leg RDL's, traveling lunges, etc.)

    On Mon do some scapula retraction (face pulls) and external rotator cuff work. On thu do scapula depression and external RC work
    On Tue do trunk rotation and anti-flexion work (barbell roll outs, bridges, etc.)
    On Thu do trunk flexion (band crunches, baby get ups, etc.) and trunk anti-rotation work.

    Br
    I really dont understand any of the last 3 sentences
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwalker497 View Post
    Thanks again but I really dont understand all those terms is there template with recocmended volume, sets and reps somehwere?
    This is all going to depend on the individual: needs, genetic disposition (i.e.: recovery ability), training phase objectives, and long term goals.

    If you go to exrx.net and look up articulations, you will see some examples of movements that work the rotator cuff and shoulder stabilizers (1st sentence), as well as the core musculature (2nd and 4rd sentence).

    Br
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    Okay so here is what I have so far.

    as I was thinking about balance, I thought maybe its a good idead to balance movement patterns maybe it would also make sense to baolance the method in which muscles are trained. If I do barbell rows, then for my opposing movement horizontal push, I should also use a barbell - barbell bench, etc.

    Also, I usually perfer to have 2 upper body workouts just to incporporate different exercises. I didnt realize that some of my exercises were the same movement. Anyway, I mainly favor Bodyweight and Free weights over machines but as I was thinking about this, I wonder if it would make sense to have 4 diff upper body workouts that I cycle through based on the equipment as listed below. Would this be a good idea or no?

    Lastly, should I do One exercises for each movement pattern and if so how many sets. OR should I pick 2 exercises of the same movement for the bigger muscles. Im assuming I shoudl only do 1 exercise for the elbow movements becuase they are smaller movements but what about the main 4 movements, should I do 1 exercise @ 3 sets and then another exercise for 2 or should I JUST pick one exercise for each indivudal movement?



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    I think you have some good ideas in there. I wouldn't worry too much about dumbbell vs. barbell, and machine vs. cable. Cables have their use, but I don't really think machines should make up a big part of any workout.

    I was thinking along the lines of bilateral movements for the major focus (both limbs at once), and then unilateral (1 arm at a time) movements for the secondary.

    So your Monday might go like this

    Bench press and barbell rows: 4-5 sets
    Single arm DB over head press and single arm cable pull down: 2-3 sets
    Bicep curls, external shoulder rotations, face pulls: 2-3 sets

    And then thursday would be the opposite, whereby
    Standing military press and pull ups: 4-5 sets
    Single arm DB chest press and DB rows: 2-3 sets
    Tricep extensions, external shoulder rotations, and prone scaptions: 2-3 sets
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    Great advice from ZirRed!
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    What about balancing the lower body. Should I select 2 quad dominant and 2 hamstring what about calves? Please help
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    Balance quad dominant movements with hip dominant movements.

    Quad dominant: squats (front, high bar, low bar - in order of quad use), pitcher squats, split squats, lunges (not traveling), hack squat, etc.
    Hip dominant: dead lift, rumanian dead lift, good morning, traveling lunges, glute ham raise, etc.

    Train your calves using standing movements. One concern with the calf is that it becomes tight, especially the soleus, which disrupts squat depth, and can lead to shin splints. Standing calf raises work the gastroc to a greater degree then soleus, which is good because: a. you don't want excessive soleus restriction, and 2. the gastroc has the greatest potential for growth. Just make sure to do plenty of calf rocks, and you can even throw some band work to train the tibialis anterior.

    Br
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZiR RED
    I like the idea of an upper/lower split.
    Personally, I use a mon/tue, thur/sat scheme..ideally.

    I think you have too many exercises, and too many over lapping exercises. There are also some potentially harmful movements (behind neck presses), and like mentioned above, the workouts are imbalanced. There is also no need for leg extensions or leg curls. In fact (and I'm working on the blog), I think typical leg curls can in many instances do more harm than good.

    My tendency is to base one upper body workout on pull ups and over head presses; and another on bent over rows and bench presses.
    Base one lower body workout on squats and closed kinetic chain knee extension (split squats) and another on dead lifts and hip extensions (good mornings).

    Br
    Good info Red.
    Should post some of your routines up as a sticky.
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    What about this? ? I really love free weight movements but also bodyweight and weighted bodyweight moves. I think bodyweights needs to be incorporated but its too much to include in one workout. So I am thinking of alternating the equipment while keeping the moveemnts the same.

    For example the first time I do upper day I will do a Barbell Workout, followed by bodyweight, etc, Dumbell, Bodyweight, barbell, etc. Im thinking this would give me a nice balance of bodyweight and free weights. example below

    Horizontal Push = Barbell Bench
    Horizontal Pull = Barbell Rows
    Vertical Push = Standing Barbell Press
    Vertical Pull = Lat Pulldown (No barbell available)
    Elbow Ext = Barbell Curls
    Elbow Flex = Skull Crushers

    Horizontal Push = Weighted Pushups
    Horizontal Pull = Weighted horizontal Chinups
    Vertical Push = Weighted Handstand Pushups
    Vertical Pull = Weighted Pullups
    Elbow Ext = Close grip weighted chinups
    Elbow Flex = Weighted Dips.

    Anyone Else do this? IF so thoughts?
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    I fit it right into my program. If I am doing heavy bench presses then I'll do supine rows (AKA: inverted rows, horizontal pull ups) with a weight vest. Like wise, if I do heavy rows I'll do band or chain resisted push ups.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronJP1 View Post
    Good info Red.
    Should post some of your routines up as a sticky.
    I totally agree!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLW2 View Post
    I totally agree!
    Just about everything is in excel files, and the specific ingredients are..........secret

    Although, a couple members from AM just signed on with me as new clients, and they are more than welcome to keep logs.

    Br
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    Posting so it isn't so hard to find this thread anymore. Great info.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/231713-rob112-3-means.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob112
    Posting so it isn't so hard to find this thread anymore. Great info.
    Yeah... If Red doesnt get it sticky I'll see if I can.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronJP1

    Yeah... If Red doesnt get it sticky I'll see if I can.
    The guy has some great knowledge. I have been doing an upper/lower and I am trying to tweak it. Red's post will help big time.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/231713-rob112-3-means.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob112

    The guy has some great knowledge. I have been doing an upper/lower and I am trying to tweak it. Red's post will help big time.
    How's the upper and lower for gains?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronJP1

    How's the upper and lower for gains?
    I've only been doing it for a couple months, and still tweaking it, but I have already got some minor strength increases. As far as muscle growth, too soon to tell. I just really like how I can push each group with heavier weight each week. The volume over all seems to be the same as a typical split, just less isolation work.

    I'll post up after I've done it for longer

    Edit: my fiancé has commented on physical attributes though.
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/231713-rob112-3-means.html
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