21s for huge growth or just a pump? - AnabolicMinds.com

21s for huge growth or just a pump?

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    21s for huge growth or just a pump?


    So I started doing 21s again recently and for couple weeks thought i was getting great growth. But recently I'm starting to doubt my renewed love them. I feel like I'm just kinda spinning my wheels and I need to go back to my traditional heavey straight bar curls in the 6-12 range. My current bicep routine goes

    DB curl 3 x 10
    Hammer DB 3 x 10
    21s ez bar 3 sets

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    Quote Originally Posted by hugry4more
    So I started doing 21s again recently and for couple weeks thought i was getting great growth. But recently I'm starting to doubt my renewed love them. I feel like I'm just kinda spinning my wheels and I need to go back to my traditional heavey straight bar curls in the 6-12 range. My current bicep routine goes

    DB curl 3 x 10
    Hammer DB 3 x 10
    21s ez bar 3 sets
    Guess it depends on who ya ask. I'm curious to hear ppls answers. I believe a pump helps with growth, how much I couldn't pin point it though.
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    Yea I feel like if u never train for a pump ur missing out on growth. But at the same time if ur constantly chasing it with high rep ranges and drop sets ur not attaining true permanent muscle growth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugry4more
    Yea I feel like if u never train for a pump ur missing out on growth. But at the same time if ur constantly chasing it with high rep ranges and drop sets ur not attaining true permanent muscle growth.
    Could also try focusing on the negative with less reps as well... Change it up every week, every couple weeks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugry4more
    So I started doing 21s again recently and for couple weeks thought i was getting great growth. But recently I'm starting to doubt my renewed love them. I feel like I'm just kinda spinning my wheels and I need to go back to my traditional heavey straight bar curls in the 6-12 range. My current bicep routine goes

    DB curl 3 x 10
    Hammer DB 3 x 10
    21s ez bar 3 sets
    You could use 21s at a lighter weight as a finisher directly after a heavy set of 6-12
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    I've gone months training heavy and months training high reps and for me heavy is when I grow the most.
    PES R&D
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonRubio View Post
    I've gone months training heavy and months training high reps and for me heavy is when I grow the most.
    Same here! Heavy and slow (1.5 sec/rep)
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    The negative? Or contraction I feel like going that slow would f with my joints...
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    Both. Try to lower the weight a little and go 1.5 up and 1.5 down. Slow but safe and effective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by uvawahoowa View Post
    You could use 21s at a lighter weight as a finisher directly after a heavy set of 6-12
    Bingo. Train heavy for the most growth, and throw in 21s as a finisher. Those pump workouts can aid in growth, but they by themselves will do very little for you (unless you're on a gram of androgens =p).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torobestia
    Bingo. Train heavy for the most growth, and throw in 21s as a finisher. Those pump workouts can aid in growth, but they by themselves will do very little for you (unless you're on a gram of androgens =p).
    Curious if this is proven?
    Not arguing just curios.
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    I do 21s once a month just to shock myself from traditional straight sets. Pump = increased nutrient rich blood flow into the muscle.

    Another great alternative to shock your body is FST-7 (Fascia Stretch Training 7)... 7 sets with 30 sec rest for small muscle groups and 40 sec rest for larger muscle groups
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronJP1 View Post
    Curious if this is proven?
    Not arguing just curios.
    Well the muscle fibers that can elicit the greatest hypertrophy are fast twitch muscle fibers. These are stimulated by lifting in higher intensity zones, roughly 1-6 reps. I'm sure With biceps, I really wouldn't ever go below 6 reps unless you're doing something like 3 sets of 6, and on your third set you failed to get 6 and only got 4-5. Doing somewhere between 6-8 is probably fine for heavy curling.

    kingk0ng posted a really awesome table showing how muscle fibers respond to different rep ranges, and it's pretty clear that those muscle fibers that grow the most do not respond well at all to high rep training. This is not to say there's no merit to high rep training for biceps, just that you need some lower rep work to get the most benefit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torobestia
    Well the muscle fibers that can elicit the greatest hypertrophy are fast twitch muscle fibers. These are stimulated by lifting in higher intensity zones, roughly 1-6 reps. I'm sure With biceps, I really wouldn't ever go below 6 reps unless you're doing something like 3 sets of 6, and on your third set you failed to get 6 and only got 4-5. Doing somewhere between 6-8 is probably fine for heavy curling.

    kingk0ng posted a really awesome table showing how muscle fibers respond to different rep ranges, and it's pretty clear that those muscle fibers that grow the most do not respond well at all to high rep training. This is not to say there's no merit to high rep training for biceps, just that you need some lower rep work to get the most benefit.
    Understood. Is there a link to that table?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronJP1

    Understood. Is there a link to that table?
    I would like to see it too
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronJP1 View Post
    Could also try focusing on the negative with less reps as well... Change it up every week, every couple weeks.
    Exactly on the negative! , I used to do 21s
    my routine would be
    1.) 2 sets of 21s with a 40lbs straight bar
    2.) 3 sets of hammer curls 8-12
    3.) 3 sets of preacher curls 8-12
    Now i switched it to
    1.) Incline DB Curl with a slow controlled negative on the last rep 3 sets of 8-12
    2.) Straight Bar Curls 3 sets x 8-12
    3.) standing Cable Curls 3 sets x 8-12
    I feel as though i got better gains once i incorporated Incline DB Curls and focused more on the form and negative
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustDiesel11

    Exactly on the negative! , I used to do 21s
    my routine would be
    1.) 2 sets of 21s with a 40lbs straight bar
    2.) 3 sets of hammer curls 8-12
    3.) 3 sets of preacher curls 8-12
    Now i switched it to
    1.) Incline DB Curl with a slow controlled negative on the last rep 3 sets of 8-12
    2.) Straight Bar Curls 3 sets x 8-12
    3.) standing Cable Curls 3 sets x 8-12
    I feel as though i got better gains once i incorporated Incline DB Curls and focused more on the form and negative
    How'd that change work out for u?
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    Here is an article by Dave Tate on the subject of 21's http://train.elitefts.com/exercises-.../21s-for-guns/
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    This guy Dave Tate sounds like a douche meat head. I don't think there is anything wrong w/ doing 21s once a month just to shock your bi's into doing something different. Former Mr. Olympia Ronnie Coleman was an avid user in 21s for barbell curls and actually did it on a week to week basis. Current Mr. O Phil Heath also does 21s for barbell curls. It's not a wussy exercise like Dave Tate is saying. It's just something different. It's not always about weight. Intensity and muscle confusion is a great theory to live by when working out
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    This guy Dave Tate sounds like a douche meat head. I don't think there is anything wrong w/ doing 21s once a month just to shock your bi's into doing something different. Former Mr. Olympia Ronnie Coleman was an avid user in 21s for barbell curls and actually did it on a week to week basis. Current Mr. O Phil Heath also does 21s for barbell curls. It's not a wussy exercise like Dave Tate is saying. It's just something different. It's not always about weight. Intensity and muscle confusion is a great theory to live by when working out
    He's just the second most respected training mind out there in the strength world.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    He's just the second most respected training mind out there in the strength world.
    Well he made himself look dumb with that article. If you are the most respected training mind in strength training world than make a forum topic about 21s with your scientific or educated proof. Every exercise is gonna help you gain strength but 21s is more along the lines for size and hypertrophy and not about lifting #s... Because Dave Tate says its a dumb exercise means that we all stop doing it? Who's ignorant?
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    Well he made himself look dumb with that article. If you are the most respected training mind in strength training world than make a forum topic about 21s with your scientific or educated proof. Every exercise is gonna help you gain strength but 21s is more along the lines for size and hypertrophy and not about lifting #s... Because Dave Tate says its a dumb exercise means that we all stop doing it? Who's ignorant?
    Not familiar with the concept of humor, are you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    Not familiar with the concept of humor, are you?
    Ofcourse I understand the concept of humor. But ppl might read that and stop doing the exercise juat because one of the most respected guys in the strength training world says so. Ppl might get the wrong impression especially the young kids who come onto these forums just getting started on working out and looking towards advice. Thats like me who is an avid weight lifter/bodybuilder not having an open mind and says that Yoga is dumb and no1 should everso do it cuz its for Wussy's or girls. Everything works; whether you use machines, free weights, other types of training or philosophies. Everything in terms of exercise is positive and will help any1 out depending on their goals in life... 21s is great to do just to shock your bi's from doing regular straight sets. That's all I am saying
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    Wow, when I posted the link I didn't realize how sensitive some people would be about their 21s. Also, people on this (or any) board would be better off taking advice from Dave Tate than 99% of the forums members. Just sayin......
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    It's not about being sensitive about 21s.. I could care less what ppl do with their own workouts. But what I am trying to say is that ppl come on these forums for information.. You can state your opinion that you do not like that particular exercise cuz what I do might not work for you but it doesn't hurt to try and rule out what does work and what does not. And if the exercise doesn't work for you personally it does not mean that it is a bad exercise in general for everyone. You know?
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    Ofcourse I understand the concept of humor. But ppl might read that and stop doing the exercise juat because one of the most respected guys in the strength training world says so. Ppl might get the wrong impression especially the young kids who come onto these forums just getting started on working out and looking towards advice. Thats like me who is an avid weight lifter/bodybuilder not having an open mind and says that Yoga is dumb and no1 should everso do it cuz its for Wussy's or girls. Everything works; whether you use machines, free weights, other types of training or philosophies. Everything in terms of exercise is positive and will help any1 out depending on their goals in life... 21s is great to do just to shock your bi's from doing regular straight sets. That's all I am saying
    Tate's opinion>>>>>yours

    If someone is new, then the last thing they should be worrying about is the size of their biceps. Yes, the article was written sardonically, but that does not make it invalid. You must have missed the opening disclaimer as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588
    I do 21s once a month just to shock myself from traditional straight sets. Pump = increased nutrient rich blood flow into the muscle.

    Another great alternative to shock your body is FST-7 (Fascia Stretch Training 7)... 7 sets with 30 sec rest for small muscle groups and 40 sec rest for larger muscle groups
    Agree with FST-7. Great to use as last set to really force the pump. I suggest keeping heavy, wide grip bar curls, then hammers or regular DB curls. On your last exercise use preacher machine for the 7 sets of 12 reps with the 30-second rest. Awesome pump! Good luck!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLW2 View Post
    Here is an article by Dave Tate on the subject of 21's http://train.elitefts.com/exercises-.../21s-for-guns/
    Great find.
    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    This guy Dave Tate sounds like a douche meat head. I don't think there is anything wrong w/ doing 21s once a month just to shock your bi's into doing something different. Former Mr. Olympia Ronnie Coleman was an avid user in 21s for barbell curls and actually did it on a week to week basis. Current Mr. O Phil Heath also does 21s for barbell curls. It's not a wussy exercise like Dave Tate is saying. It's just something different. It's not always about weight. Intensity and muscle confusion is a great theory to live by when working out
    You are a complete tool. Please stop posting advice on Anabolic Minds for a year, and spend your time listening instead.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torobestia
    Great find.

    You are a complete tool. Please stop posting advice on Anabolic Minds for a year, and spend your time listening instead.
    "great find" - yeah there was alot of useful info in that find

    I am not a tool. I graduated with a BA in Physical Education and I am currently persuing my Masters Degree in Exercise Science. What about you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    "great find" - yeah there was alot of useful info in that find

    I am not a tool. I graduated with a BA in Physical Education and I am currently persuing my Masters Degree in Exercise Science. What about you?
    Yet you've never heard of Dave Tate. In all honesty, the periodization and training theory that is taught in most schools is complete crap based upon the Western model, which is completely flawed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    "great find" - yeah there was alot of useful info in that find

    I am not a tool. I graduated with a BA in Physical Education and I am currently persuing my Masters Degree in Exercise Science. What about you?
    BS in Biology and BS in Chemistry from a top 20 school. What other literary penis comparisons do you wish to make?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torobestia
    BS in Biology and BS in Chemistry from a top 20 school. What other literary penis comparisons do you wish to make?
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    Dude this thread got way too serious LOL. Were talking about 21s here not politics LOL.
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    The strength guys (Dave Tate, etc) seems to dislike anything that's done solely for cosmetic reasons... to the point of being very condescending. Never understood why these people have such attitudes. Everyone has different goals... doesn't make them 'stupid' as Dave is trying to paint it.

    Training heavy is good, but I think it's volume w/progressive load that has the most effect on muscle growth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    The strength guys (Dave Tate, etc) seems to dislike anything that's done solely for cosmetic reasons... to the point of being very condescending. Never understood why these people have such attitudes. Everyone has different goals... doesn't make them 'stupid' as Dave is trying to paint it.

    Training heavy is good, but I think it's volume w/progressive load that has the most effect on muscle growth.
    The problem is 21s won't do anything meaningful for muscle growth.

    I think what you see from people like Dave are an aversion to the obsessive culture of bench and curl guys (think Jersey Shore). This is not anything against cosmeticism, especially considering how several guys at EFS are actually competing bodybuilders now. It's about efficacy, and 21s are a total waste of time and energy. The work you do is so low on the totem pole during 21s that you're training stamina and endurance more than hypertrophy. The question is why do something that gets you 5% there instead of something that gets you 20% there? Your answer?

    And your second statement needs some fixing. It's progression (intensity x reps x sets x time) x recovery (sleep + nutrition + etc) x frequency = results.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hugry4more View Post
    Dude this thread got way too serious LOL. Were talking about 21s here not politics LOL.
    Agreed. I don't really want this to become a personality contest. It's simply the audacity and ignorance by VS in berating a real expert's opinion that was being called into question, which coincides with him being one of the few people pushing 21s (vs. the other author suggesting against this).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Torobestia
    BS in Biology and BS in Chemistry from a top 20 school. What other literary penis comparisons do you wish to make?
    Props on your education. You know about theories of evolution and chemical compounds. But my question is should we neglect an exercise based on an opinion on 1 guy? I believe that every exercise works. It may not work for every1 but that's why you go about trial an error. An exercise that I may like may not work best for you but it does not mean it is bad. Do you comprehend?
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    I do 21s once a month just to shock myself from traditional straight sets. Pump = increased nutrient rich blood flow into the muscle.

    Another great alternative to shock your body is FST-7 (Fascia Stretch Training 7)... 7 sets with 30 sec rest for small muscle groups and 40 sec rest for larger muscle groups
    Care to provide some evidence for this or that a pump has any bearing on hypertrophy?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja

    Care to provide some evidence for this or that a pump has any bearing on hypertrophy?
    I never said a pump = hypertrophy... Why don't you read again. I said that a pump brings nutrient rich blood into the muscles
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    Quote Originally Posted by VS91588 View Post
    I never said a pump = hypertrophy... Why don't you read again. I said that a pump brings nutrient rich blood into the muscles
    Where's your evidence for the first part? Why don't you read again...
    M.Ed. Ex Phys
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