5/3/1

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Matt Hatchett View Post
    Yeah my 1RM is 210 as of about 2 weeks ago. My 1RM never seems to equal out to what the 1RM algorithm thing says I should be able to do, it's always less. I've always done better lifting lighter with more reps if that makes sense?

    Considering training with the weights suggested in 5/3/1 protocol sort of drove me away because I am in a similar boat. I can do 235 once, 225 twice or 205 10 times or more. I don't know if it is muscle fiber composition related, cns related, or purely mental. Either way, it is a very interesting topic that I'd love to see discussed further.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torobestia View Post
    He's saying buy the book because the questions you're asking are answered in it, and your posted workout does not really reflect an understanding of the program nor of having read the book. Like, I havent referenced the book since 2011 but I'm fairly certain ALL the answers you're looking for are in the first 20-30 pages or so (~40 minutes reading).
    It looks like the "boring but big" variation that I've seen referenced all over. I haven't read the book, maybe this isn't even in the book.

    I think the main issue here that people are overlooking is that some people don't fit the prototypical 1RM paradigm at all and that is what is causing the confusion. If you use a 1RM max calculator and it models your 3RM and 5RM etc very well then 5/3/1 is going to make sense as it is laid out in the book. For what seems to be a minority of us, the simple program becomes confusing because we don't match documented norms.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Lutztenways

    Considering training with the weights suggested in 5/3/1 protocol sort of drove me away because I am in a similar boat. I can do 235 once, 225 twice or 205 10 times or more. I don't know if it is muscle fiber composition related, cns related, or purely mental. Either way, it is a very interesting topic that I'd love to see discussed further.

    It looks like the "boring but big" variation that I've seen referenced all over. I haven't read the book, maybe this isn't even in the book.

    I think the main issue here that people are overlooking is that some people don't fit the prototypical 1RM paradigm at all and that is what is causing the confusion. If you use a 1RM max calculator and it models your 3RM and 5RM etc very well then 5/3/1 is going to make sense as it is laid out in the book. For what seems to be a minority of us, the simple program becomes confusing because we don't match documented norms.
    Exactly right.. I finished the book last night for all of you telling me to buy it. I was doing the boring but big program and I followed it like it said except on the 5 sets of 10 I did as many as I could on the last set. I'm just saying the formulas and 1RM calculators don't work for me. My max sucks, it always has. But I have more endurance in my opinion. After I started the program I read that there was another option for the weight %'s so I'm going to try that. Thanks to those who didn't just post to say I need to read a book.
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  3. I wouldn't worry too much about it. I would however, go through all four exercises at the prescribed weights and then tinker with the percentages after that. For me, Flat Bench day is the easiest (least tiring), and Deadlift day kicks my butt (doing Big but Boring).

    I think Wendler would just tell you to do whatever you want. Keep posting your progress!

  4. I'll definitely keep going, going to take the rest of this week to make sure my maxes are correct and start again next week.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Matt Hatchett View Post
    Yeah my 1RM is 210 as of about 2 weeks ago. My 1RM never seems to equal out to what the 1RM algorithm thing says I should be able to do, it's always less. I've always done better lifting lighter with more reps if that makes sense?
    It's likely a technical deficiency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutztenways View Post
    Considering training with the weights suggested in 5/3/1 protocol sort of drove me away because I am in a similar boat. I can do 235 once, 225 twice or 205 10 times or more. I don't know if it is muscle fiber composition related, cns related, or purely mental. Either way, it is a very interesting topic that I'd love to see discussed further.

    It looks like the "boring but big" variation that I've seen referenced all over. I haven't read the book, maybe this isn't even in the book.

    I think the main issue here that people are overlooking is that some people don't fit the prototypical 1RM paradigm at all and that is what is causing the confusion. If you use a 1RM max calculator and it models your 3RM and 5RM etc very well then 5/3/1 is going to make sense as it is laid out in the book. For what seems to be a minority of us, the simple program becomes confusing because we don't match documented norms.
    The formula included is just an estimate and it becomes more inaccurate with each rep. The main thing to take away from it is as a gauge to compare your efforts from week to week. I personally like the Periodization Bible assistance template as I feel as though it is more diverse and balanced.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys

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  6. I'm just going to have to play with the different parts of the program and see how it goes. If nothing else, I can try something different.

  7. May have been said already, but the last set is always a "sell out set" meaning you push it for as many reps as you can get with that weight except the wk 4 deload.
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve

    Recoverbro

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Matt Hatchett View Post
    Exactly right.. I finished the book last night for all of you telling me to buy it. I was doing the boring but big program and I followed it like it said except on the 5 sets of 10 I did as many as I could on the last set. I'm just saying the formulas and 1RM calculators don't work for me. My max sucks, it always has. But I have more endurance in my opinion. After I started the program I read that there was another option for the weight %'s so I'm going to try that. Thanks to those who didn't just post to say I need to read a book.
    Your assistence work sucks in the first workout. The bench press is NOT a chest movement. Use the truvient or whatever it is in the book. Not the boring but big. You do not build your lifts by doing more of the same. Follow bench and ohp with tris/delts/back work. Follow deadlift and squat with hamstring/post chain/abs work with a lil quad work. It is suppose to be easy at first. Take thest of this week to max on the 4 major lifts. Take 90% of your maxes then use that new number for the percents. Rep out the last set till 1 rep short of failure. Add 5lbs to your bench and ohp each month and 10lbs to your squat and deadlift each month. Eventually this will get hard after 6-10 waves. This program is best used for about a year minimum.

  9. Until today I didn't even know that the bench press is not a chest movement and I really still don't understand how it's not but you guys obviously know more than I do so I will take your word for it. The plan for the rest of the week is just like you said though, to figure out my true maxes and go from there. Was also thinking of using the Triumvirate that you referred to.

  10. Do yourself a favor and go to Youtube and look up Dave Tate's instructional videos on all of the big 3.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  11. Quote Originally Posted by SweetLou321 View Post
    You do not build your lifts by doing more of the same.
    Wendler disagrees.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Est1969 View Post
    Wendler disagrees.
    No, he doesn't. This is one of the misconceptions of the BBB assistance template (which I am not a fan of for anyone but a beginner) and you also have to remember that 5/3/1 is a not the best competitive PL template out there. That's why there are several different templates depending on the emphasis of the training.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  13. Hmmm my bad. I had it in my head that Wendler said BBB was a way to get stronger, but I went back to that section in the book and indeed he does not say that.

    So what does BBB bring to the beginner? What are the benefits??

    As for me, my goal is simply to get stronger. I want to increase the weights I can put up on the flat bench, deadlift, squat, and press. What do you recommend? What is the best plan to achieve this goal?

    Regards,


    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    No, he doesn't. This is one of the misconceptions of the BBB assistance template (which I am not a fan of for anyone but a beginner) and you also have to remember that 5/3/1 is a not the best competitive PL template out there. That's why there are several different templates depending on the emphasis of the training.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Est1969 View Post
    Hmmm my bad. I had it in my head that Wendler said BBB was a way to get stronger, but I went back to that section in the book and indeed he does not say that.

    So what does BBB bring to the beginner? What are the benefits??

    Regards,

    If I had to venture a guess (and that is all this is) it would be improving both form and mind-muscle connection. As always, I will defer to Rodja.
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve

    Recoverbro

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Est1969 View Post
    Hmmm my bad. I had it in my head that Wendler said BBB was a way to get stronger, but I went back to that section in the book and indeed he does not say that.

    So what does BBB bring to the beginner? What are the benefits??

    Regards,
    Volume and discipline mainly. It's a good way to establish a solid base a la Starting Strength, but it isn't the ideal assistance template because it doesn't have the specificity to strengthen weaknesses within the kinetic chain.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  16. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Do yourself a favor and go to Youtube and look up Dave Tate's instructional videos on all of the big 3.
    Is do you think you can deadlift up?

  17. Gonna start off by saying, glad you dropped the 20 bucks for the book. Read it over and over and over until you understand it. I've been doing 531 for the last 18 months solid. The first 8 months were the easiest. I only had to reset my squat. Now my actual "training maxes" are well over my first real maxes. And its much more difficult. My endurance does suck though, as I don't do conditioning consistantly.. If you go to jim wendler .com (no spaces) and read all of his blog stuff, you'll have a better understanding of 531. It is alot, but its worth the read. He talks about how 531 should be done over the course of the year, which is incredibly interesting, among other things and answers q&a about his creation...the 531 program. Don't hesitate to ask Jim your questions. He definitely doesn't tell people what the want to hear only what they need to hear. Fun fact-tone has to do with sound, not muscle definition. Not sure who started the whole "tone" thing, but they are stupid. Oh yea...the bench press conundrum. The bench press is not a dedicated chest movement. You have to stabilize yourself on the bench with your feet, butt and upper back. You have to pull the bar out of the hooks (not press and rotate) with your lats. Then you have to stabilize the weighted bar with your back, shoulders, biceps and forearms. Lower the bar with your lats to your sternum area (lower chest) with a slight tuck in the elbows (read your elbows are not straight out unless you want ****ed up shoulders, also a reason to ditch flyes). Once you touch your chest, press the bar up by driving yourself into the bench with your feet. I think someone mentioned Dave Tate's 6 week bench cure on youtube. Watch it.

    Disclaimer--I'm not a diplomat. I do piss people off. Have a nice day.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by wrench3521
    Gonna start off by saying, glad you dropped the 20 bucks for the book. Read it over and over and over until you understand it. I've been doing 531 for the last 18 months solid. The first 8 months were the easiest. I only had to reset my squat. Now my actual "training maxes" are well over my first real maxes. And its much more difficult. My endurance does suck though, as I don't do conditioning consistantly.. If you go to jim wendler .com (no spaces) and read all of his blog stuff, you'll have a better understanding of 531. It is alot, but its worth the read. He talks about how 531 should be done over the course of the year, which is incredibly interesting, among other things and answers q&a about his creation...the 531 program. Don't hesitate to ask Jim your questions. He definitely doesn't tell people what the want to hear only what they need to hear. Fun fact-tone has to do with sound, not muscle definition. Not sure who started the whole "tone" thing, but they are stupid. Oh yea...the bench press conundrum. The bench press is not a dedicated chest movement. You have to stabilize yourself on the bench with your feet, butt and upper back. You have to pull the bar out of the hooks (not press and rotate) with your lats. Then you have to stabilize the weighted bar with your back, shoulders, biceps and forearms. Lower the bar with your lats to your sternum area (lower chest) with a slight tuck in the elbows (read your elbows are not straight out unless you want ****ed up shoulders, also a reason to ditch flyes). Once you touch your chest, press the bar up by driving yourself into the bench with your feet. I think someone mentioned Dave Tate's 6 week bench cure on youtube. Watch it.

    Disclaimer--I'm not a diplomat. I do piss people off. Have a nice day.
    Some of the book is difficult to understand. I have to keep going back to certain sections of the book because it sounds like he is contradicting himself. I bought the 2nd edition book instead of the original hoping it would have more updated info. The assistance work was the biggest issue. I understand how the program works but he recommends different assistance work on every page. I've learned from all of the posts on here that the assistance work may be different to each person due to weakness in certain areas so I guess it's a matter of figuring out what areas I lack in. Then he started talking about rest/pause training and some other programs which gave me a mix of different information.

  19. ^^ absolutely right. Even more maddening is when you read his many interviews he flat out contradicts himself all the time. I've learned not to look at Wendler's writings too closely; just take the big picture ideas and then see what works for you. Experiment with the accessories and get advice from other experienced lifters who have similar goals as you (or understands you goals).

    Just my opinion on the matter. If there were one right answer, then there wouldn't be 2200 posts on the board every day

  20. Quote Originally Posted by SweetLou321 View Post
    Is do you think you can deadlift up?
    It's been filmed for awhile, but not edited. IMO, the deadlift (especially conventional) is pretty straight-forward with the main issue being width and proximity of the shins to the bar. Sumo is a bit more tricky, but I explain in terms of an inverted squat. The principles are the same (flared knees, arched lumbar, tight upper back, and hips pushed backwards), but the thing that needs to be emphasized more is pulling the slack out of the bar before initializing the pull.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Hatchett View Post
    Some of the book is difficult to understand. I have to keep going back to certain sections of the book because it sounds like he is contradicting himself. I bought the 2nd edition book instead of the original hoping it would have more updated info. The assistance work was the biggest issue. I understand how the program works but he recommends different assistance work on every page. I've learned from all of the posts on here that the assistance work may be different to each person due to weakness in certain areas so I guess it's a matter of figuring out what areas I lack in. Then he started talking about rest/pause training and some other programs which gave me a mix of different information.
    There is way too much emphasis on how to choose assistance work with 5/3/1. It does not make or break the program, yet it is the main concern. The assistance template that is chosen by the lifter is not the essence of 5/3/1, which is why there is so many options for assistance work.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  21. Quote Originally Posted by Est1969
    ^^ absolutely right. Even more maddening is when you read his many interviews he flat out contradicts himself all the time. I've learned not to look at Wendler's writings too closely; just take the big picture ideas and then see what works for you. Experiment with the accessories and get advice from other experienced lifters who have similar goals as you (or understands you goals).

    Just my opinion on the matter. If there were one right answer, then there wouldn't be 2200 posts on the board every day
    Couldn't agree more! I found myself reading through it over and over looking for a clear cut answer. I hate trial and error but that seems to be the only way to be successful. I finally just chose my template and I'm going to use assistance work that has worked in the past along with some new things like floor press and some others.

  22. I think the biggest problem is no one really remembers that 531 is not a bodybuilding program. And everyone thinks they have to go crazy with the assistance work. Remember training economy. He may not be consistent on the surface, because he wants you to find the path yourself. Everyones weak points are different. Also, if you truly think his writings and interviews are constant contradiction, why spend the money on the book and why spend time doing his program. You'd be better off using the program of the month from an overpriced bodybuilding magazine.

    Disclaimer--still not a diplomat.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by wrench3521 View Post
    I think the biggest problem is no one really remembers that 531 is not a bodybuilding program. And everyone thinks they have to go crazy with the assistance work. Remember training economy. He may not be consistent on the surface, because he wants you to find the path yourself. Everyones weak points are different. Also, if you truly think his writings and interviews are constant contradiction, why spend the money on the book and why spend time doing his program. You'd be better off using the program of the month from an overpriced bodybuilding magazine.

    Disclaimer--still not a diplomat.
    I do the program because it is simple and it works, and yet I pointed out there are lots of contradictions. For example he says once that Front Squats can be subbed in for Back Squats on Squat day. Later he says absolutely never do that; Back Squats only. It's a clear contradiction, but I'm not going to throw out the baby with the bathwater. My point was just not to get hung up on the little stuff and work with the big points of the 531 program.

    I think the program is very good. I just think Wendler could use an editor.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by Est1969 View Post
    For example he says once that Front Squats can be subbed in for Back Squats on Squat day. Later he says absolutely never do that; Back Squats only.
    i've read it prolly 20 times and haven't seen that. is this in the 2nd edition?

  25. Quote Originally Posted by napalm View Post
    i've read it prolly 20 times and haven't seen that. is this in the 2nd edition?
    In the FAQ in both editions, he says you can switch front squats for back squats, but I haven't seen him say no to it.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  26. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    In the FAQ in both editions, he says you can switch front squats for back squats, but I haven't seen him say no to it.
    hey rodja, yeah i saw that in the faq's i was wondering if he changed something in the 2nd ed.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by napalm View Post
    hey rodja, yeah i saw that in the faq's i was wondering if he changed something in the 2nd ed.
    I'd have to compare page by page, but I think the main difference is integrating other forms of training (e.g. rest-pause).
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  28. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    I'd have to compare page by page, but I think the main difference is integrating other forms of training (e.g. rest-pause).
    don't bother for the purpose of this thread it's not a big deal...

  29. Is there a problem with people posting issues or questions about programs? It seems other users come in here posting saying if there's a problem use a different program or blah blah. Didn't know we weren't allowed to discuss issues. Just an observation from a new set of eyes.

  30. Quote Originally Posted by napalm View Post
    i've read it prolly 20 times and haven't seen that. is this in the 2nd edition?
    In the book (page 70) he says it's ok to use Front Squats as a replacement for Back Squats in 5/3/1 as a main exercise.

    Then in this article: http://articles.elitefts.com/trainin...531-questions/

    in question #18 he says "NO" it's not okay to do that, but you can work in Front Squats if you want as an assistance exercise.

    Look...not a big deal. It's just a point in context of a beginner trying to figure all this stuff out it can be a bit confusing when one looks too closely at Wendler. Best to step back and just take in the main points. That's all I'm pointing out.

    Cheers,
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