Hi novice in need of some wisdom

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    Hi novice in need of some wisdom


    Hi guys from New york I'm new to the forum and it looks nice , I've been working out for about 8 or 9 months and ive only been able to gain about 10 or 13 pounds. I haven't changed since then I've taken the holiday week off the gym to try to figure out a new routine and breakthrough a plateau I have in mass which is around 160 pounds. Though my strength was building, it was way to slow. I was hoping someone could drop some knowledge onto me for some sort of new routine that will help me build mainly strength, with mass on the side. I'm guessing my initial gains were only newbie gains and I'm only 17 years old btw about 5'11. So i've been all over the internet looking at different workouts and different opinions from different people with different results, but I can't seem to find one thats right for me so I found this site after a few google searches and just decided to ask for help myself. Thanks for any info you guys can give.

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    to gain mass there is more to it than just the lifting aspect, you need to up the caloric intake. What does your diet consist of? What is your current split?
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    Thanks for the reply
    My diet is pretty much eating anything and everything and more so things with protein and lots of water , i try to make sure to have 160grams of protein a day or more but since whey is expensive I try to get most of it through food everyday. I'm more mesomorphic in nature so i don't worry about fat as much.

    What i used to do was an increase of weight every set working my way up until failure or very close to it.
    Standing Triceps 5x10
    Shoulder Shrugs 5x20
    Reverse Curls 5x10
    Bench 5x10
    Standing Dumbbell flys 5x5
    Pec machine/upper flys 5x10
    Abs and some cardio then after a day of rest

    Squats 5x10
    Deadlifts 5x5-10
    Leg press 5x5-10
    Standing Calf Raises 5x12
    more abs and cardio then repeat after some rest
    •   
       

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    If your chasing mainly strength try starting strength, 5x5 or 5/3/1. there some great programs to begin with, Im an avid fan of Jim Wendler and his 5/3/1 methods but im going to suggest starting strength or 5x5 first because you will progress faster on 1 of those 2 programs.

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224 - (Starting Strength)

    http://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5...ining-program/ - (5x5)
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    [quote=Newtonselite;2700125]If your chasing mainly strength try starting strength, 5x5 or 5/3/1. there some great programs to begin with, Im an avid fan of Jim Wendler and his 5/3/1 methods but im going to suggest starting strength or 5x5 first because you will progress faster on 1 of those 2 programs.



    I'm wondering with my experience if I'd still be able to gain some strength and mass with the starting strength routine. maybe I should do the Advanced version of it?
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    The reason most people don't achieve there goals is this, they bounce from this workout to that workout and don't eat enough of the right food. Here's my advice. Always eat 6 times a day. Eat 2 times your body weight in protein. For example, this week you need to eat 320 grams of protein every day. Every day! Next week might be more. Next, pick a style of lifting(HIT, 5X5, volume training, whatever) Just pick one and stick with it for at least, at least 2 years. Also go to the gym with a plan. Use a journal and write down what you do and then beat your numbers the next week. Those who fail to plan, plan to fail. WISDOM is applied knowledge.
    Last edited by omni; 01-01-2011 at 01:15 AM. Reason: spelling
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    I'd like to add, 13 pounds in 8 months is decent...
    When I was 17, I think I put on about 10 pounds in a year, then my senior year in highschool I went from 165 up to 175, and then gains kind of slowed down.

    And they're right, you want to stick to a certain workout long enough to know if it's working.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FL3X MAGNUM View Post
    I'd like to add, 13 pounds in 8 months is decent...
    When I was 17, I think I put on about 10 pounds in a year, then my senior year in highschool I went from 165 up to 175, and then gains kind of slowed down.

    And they're right, you want to stick to a certain workout long enough to know if it's working.
    Really? I've talked to people who say they go up like 30-40 pounds in a few months...and thanks Omni I think i'm going to try to do some sort of Advanced version of starting strength and work it for a year or two and eat even more but man I already eat hell of a lot my stomachs gonna explode. I just ate a 25 ounce filet/steak at outback steakhouse with loaded cheesefries clam chowder and mashed potatoes. I just bought a small notebook i'm going to write in too thanks!
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    Wink


    Quote Originally Posted by Megalo View Post
    Really? I've talked to people who say they go up like 30-40 pounds in a few months...and thanks Omni I think i'm going to try to do some sort of Advanced version of starting strength and work it for a year or two and eat even more but man I already eat hell of a lot my stomachs gonna explode. I just ate a 25 ounce filet/steak at outback steakhouse with loaded cheesefries clam chowder and mashed potatoes. I just bought a small notebook i'm going to write in too thanks!
    Outback!! Dude you suck! LOL Thats my favorite place!
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    Quote Originally Posted by omni View Post
    Outback!! Dude you suck! LOL Thats my favorite place!
    Lol its mine too when my wallet is fat, but thats rare.
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    follow the road to getting JACK M8! lmao
    [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggiC8F7z2Ls"]YouTube - EliteFTS.com - The Road to "The Jack"[/nomedia]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newtonselite View Post
    follow the road to getting JACK M8! lmao
    - EliteFTS.com - The Road to "The Jack"[/url]
    Is that Australia in those videos? I would guess from all the tans,I watched a few of those videos and those guys are funny and I see your point lol. Kind of Ironic I went to Outback Steakhouse this new year.
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    I've been thinking of doing the mad cow routine its not to far off the Starting strength routine but I think it has the extra exercises i need. This is geared mainly toward strength right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalo View Post
    Is that Australia in those videos? I would guess from all the tans,I watched a few of those videos and those guys are funny and I see your point lol. Kind of Ironic I went to Outback Steakhouse this new year.
    Na not Australia man, no idea but its where ever Jim wendler lives i assume lol..... Yea all those blokes are funny as!

    5x5 is geared towards stength and size. Its a good program to run as you said for a year or more just keep upping them weights until you can lift some respectable numbers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newtonselite View Post
    Na not Australia man, no idea but its where ever Jim wendler lives i assume lol..... Yea all those blokes are funny as!

    5x5 is geared towards stength and size. Its a good program to run as you said for a year or more just keep upping them weights until you can lift some respectable numbers.
    I see, thanks for the info Newton and thanks to everyone else as well I'm going to start the Madcow routine this Monday.
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    5/3/1 is awesome for strength gains..

    my advice will be to learn patience. Lifting is a life long journey not a weekend thing. 13 pounds in 8 months comes to what, like 2.something lbs a week. This sounds about right bud. You arent gonna gain weight magically overnight. Learn some patience and keep working hard at it and you will reach your goals.
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    5/3/1 is awesome for strength gains..

    my advice will be to learn patience. Lifting is a life long journey not a weekend thing. 13 pounds in 8 months comes to what, like 2.something lbs a week. This sounds about right bud. You arent gonna gain weight magically overnight. Learn some patience and keep working hard at it and you will reach your goals.
    How would you compare the 5/3/1 to the Madcow Routine? And thanks I know it takes awhile, I just thought 13 pounds was low for someone working out for 8 or 9 months.
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    I personally run 5/3/1 myself for everything!

    these would be the more major differences,

    5/3/1 based on a 4week cycle - After you finish the first cycle, you add five pounds to your 1RM calculations for the two upper-body lifts and 10 pounds to your 1RM for the squat and deadlift.

    Madcows 5x5 - weekly increases of 2.5% of your top set of 5 on Monday. So you do 100lbs for 5 on your top set on Monday. Then on Friday you do a triple with 2.5% more, or 102.5. The next Monday you come back and do 102.5 for your heavy set of 5, that Friday the triple is 105 and so on. For the non-squat Wednesday lifts you just increase by the percentage week to week.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalo View Post
    Really? I've talked to people who say they go up like 30-40 pounds in a few months...and thanks Omni I think i'm going to try to do some sort of Advanced version of starting strength and work it for a year or two and eat even more but man I already eat hell of a lot my stomachs gonna explode. I just ate a 25 ounce filet/steak at outback steakhouse with loaded cheesefries clam chowder and mashed potatoes. I just bought a small notebook i'm going to write in too thanks!
    If they did 30-40 lbs in a few months, a lot of it was fat. 10-15 lbs natural in a year is great. At that speed, it's very likely you won't even need a cut, because almost all of your gains will be muscle. You're 17...if you keep that up for 5 years, you'll finish college looking like a Mac Truck in a t-shirt.

    I liked the advice about sticking with a program for a while. I think at least 6-8 months if you're on a solid program. Don't just go in and wing it, apply some structure. That's not to say you can't mix up the lifts now and then, but it shouldn't be random.

    Regarding diet, everyone harps on protein, but as a natural lifter, you honestly don't need ridiculous amounts of protein. Sure, you don't want to skimp, but make sure you get a steady supply of complex carbs and stay away from the sugar. If you do that and you're in a calorie surplus, you'll keep growing.

    Don't make it complicated, just be happy you're improving at ANY pace. Magazines, TV, movies, and people who don't know what they're talking about want you to believe you can bulk up in the time it takes to watch a cheesy montage, but that's all a load of crap. If you're better now than you were 6 months ago, than you're doing something right. It doesn't matter how much you improve, only that you keep doing it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnRock View Post
    If they did 30-40 lbs in a few months, a lot of it was fat. 10-15 lbs natural in a year is great. At that speed, it's very likely you won't even need a cut, because almost all of your gains will be muscle. You're 17...if you keep that up for 5 years, you'll finish college looking like a Mac Truck in a t-shirt.

    I liked the advice about sticking with a program for a while. I think at least 6-8 months if you're on a solid program. Don't just go in and wing it, apply some structure. That's not to say you can't mix up the lifts now and then, but it shouldn't be random.

    Regarding diet, everyone harps on protein, but as a natural lifter, you honestly don't need ridiculous amounts of protein. Sure, you don't want to skimp, but make sure you get a steady supply of complex carbs and stay away from the sugar. If you do that and you're in a calorie surplus, you'll keep growing.

    Don't make it complicated, just be happy you're improving at ANY pace. Magazines, TV, movies, and people who don't know what they're talking about want you to believe you can bulk up in the time it takes to watch a cheesy montage, but that's all a load of crap. If you're better now than you were 6 months ago, than you're doing something right. It doesn't matter how much you improve, only that you keep doing it.
    I guess that could make sense the guy who was gloating was of the more husky type. I've been doing a mish mash of my own routine with a routine I found in a Mens Health Big Book of Exercises It went well for awhile but I think I gotta change. I've been eating a lot of wheat because I like wheat bread better then others as well as wheat cereals I hope thats enough carbs. I am pretty happy at the change my body has made since I started but I know I can get much better. Thanks I'm gonna change my routine and stick with it for about a year and then maybe do a few months of a bodybuilding exercise.
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    I started with Rippetoes Starting Strenght when i was 17.

    My lifts increased pretty fast, and i gained 8lbs of weight in 5 months. Considering that i were chubby child and i looked leaner after those 5 months i can't tell truth how much i did pack up muscle(and i were still growing in length during that time), but i was eating pretty correctly during that time when i started.

    Squats 3x5 130 -> 3x5 270
    DL 1x5 180 -> 1x5 330
    DB Bench 3x5 44's -> 70's (Reason for doing these is fact i have had pretty bad shoulders since being child, runs in family.. I can do DB bench without problems, but barbell is different story..)
    Overhead Press 3x5 90 -> 110
    BB Row 3x5 130 -> 3x5 165

    I loved program, but after it i found my arms were pretty much lacking compared to rest of body, and still are. It would have been wise to do some isolation work for arms during the run, but i did focus on movements posted above. Still it gave pretty good foundation in my taste. Learning major lift techniques early will pay later on imo.

    So as people earlier have told, 5x5, 5/3/1 or Starting Strenght (I would prefer Madcows if i could get back in time..) can't go wrong with these!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalo View Post
    I guess that could make sense the guy who was gloating was of the more husky type. I've been doing a mish mash of my own routine with a routine I found in a Mens Health Big Book of Exercises It went well for awhile but I think I gotta change. I've been eating a lot of wheat because I like wheat bread better then others as well as wheat cereals I hope thats enough carbs. I am pretty happy at the change my body has made since I started but I know I can get much better. Thanks I'm gonna change my routine and stick with it for about a year and then maybe do a few months of a bodybuilding exercise.
    I have that book and others like it and they're useful, but they're more about plateau breaking than programs you can stick with for a length of time and continually grow. Magazines always want to give you some 4, 8, or 12 week program for two reasons. One is that it's exciting to think you could drastically improve in that amount of time and secondly, because they need have something else to publish next month, even though they're just remixing the same old routines.

    A good routine is one that is built around complex lifts, allows for enough recovery, and has some variety to the rep ranges built into it's structure. If you do that and stick to it, you're golden. Now if you're playing a sport or interested in improving at a specific thing, it might be important to start tailoring your training towards that, but that's different than simply building muscle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnRock View Post
    I have that book and others like it and they're useful, but they're more about plateau breaking than programs you can stick with for a length of time and continually grow. Magazines always want to give you some 4, 8, or 12 week program for two reasons. One is that it's exciting to think you could drastically improve in that amount of time and secondly, because they need have something else to publish next month, even though they're just remixing the same old routines.

    A good routine is one that is built around complex lifts, allows for enough recovery, and has some variety to the rep ranges built into it's structure. If you do that and stick to it, you're golden. Now if you're playing a sport or interested in improving at a specific thing, it might be important to start tailoring your training towards that, but that's different than simply building muscle.
    Ya I mostly got the book because it explained the proper forms and technique of each workout very well. I found this workout on the internet its based off the 5/3/1 workout routine. What do you think? I want to gain mainly strength with mass on the side.

    Monday: Chest, Triceps
    Bench Press- 3 sets of 5 reps
    Incline DB Press- 4 sets of 8-12 reps
    Weighted Chest Dips 4 sets 8-12
    Overhead DB Extensions- 3 sets of 8-12 reps
    Tricep Xtension- 3 sets of 8-12 reps

    Wednesday: Back, Biceps
    Deadlift- 3 sets of 5 reps
    Lat Pulldown- 4 sets of 8-12 reps
    One Arm DB Row- 4 sets of 8-12 reps
    Alternate DB Curl- 3 sets of 8-12 reps
    Machine Preacher Curl- 3 sets of 8-12 reps

    Friday: Shoulders, Traps, Abs
    Overhead Press- 3 sets of 5 reps
    DB Lateral Raises- 3 sets of 8-12 reps
    Reverse Pec Deck- 3 sets of 8-12 reps
    DB Shrugs- 3 sets of 8-12 reps
    Cable Rope Crunches- 3 sets of 8-12 reps
    Machine Crunch- 3 sets of 8-12 reps

    Saturday: Quads, Hams, Calves
    Squat- 3 sets of 5 reps
    Leg Press- 3 sets of 10-12 reps
    Leg Extensions- 3 sets of 10-12 reps
    Leg Curls- 4 sets of 10-12 reps
    Standing Calf Raise- 4 sets of 10-12 reps

    but I'm also having trouble understanding this, what does it mean?
    Wave 1. Warmup, 75% x 5, 80% x 5, 85% x 5
    Wave 2. Warmup, 80% x 3, 85% x 3, 90% x 3
    Wave 3. Warmup, 75% x 5, 85% x 3, 95% x 1
    Wave 4. (deload) - 60% x 5, 65% x 5, 70% x 5
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    those waves apply to your main lifts (usually the first lift in the program such as bench or squat)

    Your first step is to find your 1RM for each of the main lifts. After you find this number you take 90% of it and use that new number as your 1RM and this is the number you will use to determine the weights you will be lifting thoughout the program.

    So say your deadlift max was 400lbs. 90% of this would be 360.

    Here is how you will plug it all in
    Wave = week

    So week 1 is 5 reps. The percentages given are 75% x 5, 80% x 5, 85% x 5.
    So using 360 as you max on deadlift day you will do
    270x5/ 288x5/ 306x5

    This applies to all your main lifts only. For your acessory work you will use anyway from 30-60% of your new 1RM and follow the rest of the outline. I like the "boring but big" template of the book personally.

    Hope that helps clear up whatever confusion you had
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    What he said. Alternatively, after you've started, you can just start going by what you think you can lift for 3 reps, 5 reps, and 10 reps. You'll get a good idea of what you can do pretty quickly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    those waves apply to your main lifts (usually the first lift in the program such as bench or squat)

    Your first step is to find your 1RM for each of the main lifts. After you find this number you take 90% of it and use that new number as your 1RM and this is the number you will use to determine the weights you will be lifting thoughout the program.

    So say your deadlift max was 400lbs. 90% of this would be 360.

    Here is how you will plug it all in
    Wave = week

    So week 1 is 5 reps. The percentages given are 75% x 5, 80% x 5, 85% x 5.
    So using 360 as you max on deadlift day you will do
    270x5/ 288x5/ 306x5

    This applies to all your main lifts only. For your acessory work you will use anyway from 30-60% of your new 1RM and follow the rest of the outline. I like the "boring but big" template of the book personally.

    Hope that helps clear up whatever confusion you had
    Thank you, this answered a lot of my questions I especially the accessory workout info. I started my workout today and pretty much guessed it meant a certain percentage of my max and I kinda just went with what i felt was right like John said. My max on bench is about 195-205 pounds so I did 5 reps of 175 for 3 sets. But I didnt think you would have to use 90% of your max as your new 1rm, so I probably should of done about 155 for 5 reps then 165 then 175 for 5 reps right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalo View Post
    Thank you, this answered a lot of my questions I especially the accessory workout info. I started my workout today and pretty much guessed it meant a certain percentage of my max and I kinda just went with what i felt was right like John said. My max on bench is about 195-205 pounds so I did 5 reps of 175 for 3 sets. But I didnt think you would have to use 90% of your max as your new 1rm, so I probably should of done about 155 for 5 reps then 165 then 175 for 5 reps right?
    Yea one of the main points in the 5/3/1 book is that you MUST use less than your actual 1RM. People make the mistake of thinking they need to lift to failure everytime and train with the heaviest they can possibly train. The point of 5/3/1 is if you start out at 90% than you will always have room for improvement and you will consistently get better. Also another important note is that the end of each 3rd set it isnt set in stone a rep number. For example on your 5 rep day for you would do 75%x5, 80%x5 and on your last set you go for as many reps possible not necessairly 85%x5 it can be 85%x8. Here is where you push yourself and try to set new PRs. Remember a PR doesnt have to be your 1RM. If the first time through it you did 200lbsx6 for your last set and on your second try at the program you were able to do 200lbsx8 than you got stronger and set a new PR. The 5/3/1 program is very solid and has been around a long time and many lifters can vouch for it. You won't go wrong here with this program. Might I suggest though if your goal is strength with some size yougo with the "Boring but big" template of the program. With this all you do is repeat your main lift for 5 sets of 10 reps. So if it is bench day you would do you bench x5x5x5 or whatever week your on and than your assistence work would be bench again for 5 sets of 10 reps and you will finish off with some dumbell rows 5 sets of 10 reps. This method might sound boring but you WILL gain size with it and strength. You can google the exact template Im sure it is somewhere online or I can type it up for you if you wanted.

    Anyway good luck bud
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Yea one of the main points in the 5/3/1 book is that you MUST use less than your actual 1RM. People make the mistake of thinking they need to lift to failure everytime and train with the heaviest they can possibly train. The point of 5/3/1 is if you start out at 90% than you will always have room for improvement and you will consistently get better. Also another important note is that the end of each 3rd set it isnt set in stone a rep number. For example on your 5 rep day for you would do 75%x5, 80%x5 and on your last set you go for as many reps possible not necessairly 85%x5 it can be 85%x8. Here is where you push yourself and try to set new PRs. Remember a PR doesnt have to be your 1RM. If the first time through it you did 200lbsx6 for your last set and on your second try at the program you were able to do 200lbsx8 than you got stronger and set a new PR. The 5/3/1 program is very solid and has been around a long time and many lifters can vouch for it. You won't go wrong here with this program. Might I suggest though if your goal is strength with some size yougo with the "Boring but big" template of the program. With this all you do is repeat your main lift for 5 sets of 10 reps. So if it is bench day you would do you bench x5x5x5 or whatever week your on and than your assistence work would be bench again for 5 sets of 10 reps and you will finish off with some dumbell rows 5 sets of 10 reps. This method might sound boring but you WILL gain size with it and strength. You can google the exact template Im sure it is somewhere online or I can type it up for you if you wanted.

    Anyway good luck bud
    Thanks again, so with boring but big I would add an additional 5 set bench 10 reps on top of the normal 5x5x5 also including the other workouts, so I'd do 5 sets of 10 reps on top of the normal 5x5x5 Squats as well right?Then the rows, but can I still do more assistance work if i like right not just one? I found a site so I'd put 50% of my 90% of my 1RM for these 5 sets or just my normal 1RM? You've been a lot of help thanks I'd give you a million more rep if i could.
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    5/3/1


    Week 1: 3 x 5
    Week 2: 3 x 3
    Week 3: 3 x 5, 3, 1
    Week 4: deloading

    You aren't just picking a weight to lift five times or three times or one time per set. You're using a specific percentage of your one-rep max. And not your full 1RM. The calculations are based on 90% of it.

    So if your 1RM in the bench press is 315 pounds, you use 285 (90%) as the base number for your training-weight calculations. Here's how it works:


    When you see 5+, 3+, or 1+, that means you do the max reps you can manage with that weight, with the goal of setting a rep record in each workout.

    Let's walk through the Week 1 workout for bench press. Using the example above, if your 1RM is 315, you calculate all your percentages from 90% of that max, or 285 pounds.So you're using 185 (65% of 285) x 5, 215 x 5, and 240 or 245 x 5 or more.

    After you finish the first cycle, you add five pounds to your 1RM calculations for the two upper-body lifts and 10 pounds to your 1RM for the squat and deadlift.

    BORING BUT BIG:


    TRIUMVIRATE
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    Thanks Newton I'm going to do the Boring But big so this is my new routine, I don't think the volume for my accessory excercises is to much, its just enough to take me about 60mins with 30-60 seconds rest time at the gym. Which I think is the way it should be compared to my 2 hour workouts I used to do as a natural lifter. (Very Little Supplements, Including Whey)

    Monday: Chest, Triceps
    Bench Press- 3 sets of 5 reps (or whatever week)
    Bench Press- 5 sets of 10 reps
    Incline DB Press- 4 sets of 8-12 reps
    Weighted Chest Dips 4 sets 8-12
    Overhead DB Extensions- 3 sets of 8-12 reps
    Tricep Xtension- 3 sets of 8-12 reps

    Wednesday: Back, Biceps
    Deadlift- 3 sets of 5 reps (or whatever week)
    Deadlift- 5 sets of 10 reps
    Lat Pulldown- 4 sets of 8-12 reps
    One Arm DB Row- 4 sets of 8-12 reps
    Alternate DB Curl- 3 sets of 8-12 reps
    Machine Preacher Curl- 3 sets of 8-12 reps

    Friday: Shoulders, Traps, Abs
    Overhead Press- 3 sets of 5 reps (or whatever week)
    Overhead Press- 5 sets of 10 reps
    DB Lateral Raises- 3 sets of 8-12 reps
    Reverse Pec Deck- 3 sets of 8-12 reps
    DB Shrugs- 3 sets of 8-12 reps
    Cable Rope Crunches- 3 sets of 8-12 reps
    Machine Crunch- 3 sets of 8-12 reps

    Saturday: Quads, Hams, Calves
    Squat- 3 sets of 5 reps (or whatever week)
    Squat- 5 sets of 10 reps
    Leg Press- 3 sets of 10-12 reps
    Leg Extensions- 3 sets of 10-12 reps
    Leg Curls- 4 sets of 10-12 reps
    Standing Calf Raise- 4 sets of 10-12 reps

    If theres anything anyone would change or remove please critique me.
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    I still think your set-up is overkill with all the assistance work. I've done 5/3/1 with BBB assistance work and it is tough to recover by itself without adding all the stuff you've added. If you are trying to gain size some volume is necessary, but too much volume can be counterproductive. Work up pushing up the poundage on the main lifts (but start with 90% of actual max to base your training numbers on) and simply get some work in for the assistance stuff. Here's what I would recommend.
    BP 5/3/1 (whatever week you are on)
    BP 5 sets of 10 (you can trade this out with DB BP or incline BP every 2-3 cycles if you want)
    rowing movement 6 sets of 10
    optional bicep or tricep isolation work (1-2 sets of 10-20 reps)

    DL 5/3/1
    DL sets of 10
    abs 3-4 sets
    optional shrugs 1 set to near failure

    OHP 5/3/1
    OHP 5 sets of 10
    pull-ups or pulldowns 5-6 sets of 10 or 50 total reps
    optional 1-2 sets of biceps or triceps

    SQ 5/3/1
    SQ 5 sets of 10
    leg curls 2-3 sets of 10-20
    calf raises 2 sets (optional)
    abs 3-4 sets
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    Quote Originally Posted by SRS2000 View Post
    I still think your set-up is overkill with all the assistance work. I've done 5/3/1 with BBB assistance work and it is tough to recover by itself without adding all the stuff you've added. If you are trying to gain size some volume is necessary, but too much volume can be counterproductive. Work up pushing up the poundage on the main lifts (but start with 90% of actual max to base your training numbers on) and simply get some work in for the assistance stuff. Here's what I would recommend.
    BP 5/3/1 (whatever week you are on)
    BP 5 sets of 10 (you can trade this out with DB BP or incline BP every 2-3 cycles if you want)
    rowing movement 6 sets of 10
    optional bicep or tricep isolation work (1-2 sets of 10-20 reps)

    DL 5/3/1
    DL sets of 10
    abs 3-4 sets
    optional shrugs 1 set to near failure

    OHP 5/3/1
    OHP 5 sets of 10
    pull-ups or pulldowns 5-6 sets of 10 or 50 total reps
    optional 1-2 sets of biceps or triceps

    SQ 5/3/1
    SQ 5 sets of 10
    leg curls 2-3 sets of 10-20
    calf raises 2 sets (optional)
    abs 3-4 sets
    I agree with pretty much all of this, except for sets of 10 deadlifts. I think form tends to go south in the higher rep range. I'd rather switch over to bent over rows and straight leg deads than do them for higher reps.
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    If you do the 5x10 deadlifts, you have to keep them very light and avoid technique breakdown. I think RDL's or light very strict GM's could also work here. Bottom line is get some volume in an exercise that emphasizes the low back, glutes, and hamstrings.
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    Alright thanks SRS, I'll do what you suggested. The only reason I added so much to my routine was because I wanted some bodybuilding exercises on the side as well. Also whenever I workout no matter how hard I try I never feel sore after and it annoys me. So I thought more would help.Though I'm feeling sore from my last workout but that was probably because I didn't go to the gym for a week.
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    I think you have a little too much emphasis on training your upper body. If I were you, I would try and train legs twice a week. Maybe train your arms on chest day and shoulders with back. Just my .02
  36. New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolverines View Post
    I think you have a little too much emphasis on training your upper body. If I were you, I would try and train legs twice a week. Maybe train your arms on chest day and shoulders with back. Just my .02
    I'm just following what the 5/3/1 routine says. I'm not to sure if I should do more legs, then I'd have to do more in 1 workout day for the others. I'd have no problem working legs more often but I'm going to keep it simple and sticking to the 5/3/1. Though If I don't feel so bad after finishing these workouts and have a lot of time to spare in my 1 hour time frame because I'm a natural lifter. I will probably adjust in more accessory exercises and pack in more bodyparts in 1 day so I could do as you suggest , but thanks.
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    T NATION: I love 5/3/1. It's the only program I've ever followed that's allowed me to get consistently stronger. Here's the thing, though: I'm a bodybuilder at heart, and catch myself trying to "marry" your program with my favorite bodybuilding split. Does this have the makings of matrimonial bliss or a messy divorce?

    JW: Another closeted bodybuilder. Did you really think that just because you throw around terms like Westside and complain that your gym doesn't have a reverse hyper that we couldn't tell who you really are? The fact that you have your initials embroidered on your lifting straps was a dead give away.

    I'm just messing with ya. Your question is a good one and the solution is pretty easy – just stick with the main movements, but divide the assistance work with body parts, much like a standard bodybuilding program.

    The main movement stays the same and keeps strength in the program. This allows you to progress from week to week and actually get stronger, something lacking in about 99% of non-assisted bodybuilders' routines.

    When you push the assistance in the program below, keep the reps on the final set to just the bare minimum or just slightly over.

    For conditioning, I highly recommend 30-40 minutes of walking every day. Yes, walking. If you're asking why something so non-strenuous: if physique goals are your only concern, do not let the conditioning take away from your recovery. (See the earlier question about focusing on one goal at a time.)

    Here's a sample template:


    Day 1: Shoulders and Biceps
    Standing Military Press – 5/3/1

    DB Military Press – 4 x12

    Side Laterals/Rear Laterals – 4 x12

    Barbell Curls – 4 x12

    Preacher Curls – 4 x10

    Day 2: Back
    Deadlift – 5/3/1

    Bent Over Rows – 4 x12

    Chin ups – 4 x10 (or do Lat Pulldowns)

    Good Mornings – 4 x10

    Hanging Leg Raises – 4 x12

    Day 3: Chest and Triceps
    Bench Press – 5/3/1

    Weighted Dips – 4 x10

    DB Flyes – 4 x12

    Triceps Pushdowns – 5 x 20

    Push ups – 4 sets to failure

    Day 4: Legs and Abs
    Squat – 5/3/1

    Leg Press – 5 x 15

    Leg Curls – 5 x 15

    Leg Extensions – 4 x12

    Ab Wheel – 4 x12

    http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...s_volume_eight

    Otherwise just stick with BBB and keep in calorie surplus trust me youll grow!!! remember at the beginning of this post the main thing you wanted was strength and again BBB will get you there!

    I think your starting to overlook the simplicity of this program and making it alot more complicated for your goals then it needs to be!!! Just follow the program exactly hows its written youll get strong and big as a result!!!
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    Thanks Newton that looks like a nice workout, I printed out 3 workouts from here and some other tidbits for reminding me about some info, I'm gonna look them over and choose which I like the best. This one is the most appealing I feel though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalo View Post
    Thanks for the reply
    My diet is pretty much eating anything and everything and more so things with protein and lots of water , i try to make sure to have 160grams of protein a day or more but since whey is expensive I try to get most of it through food everyday. I'm more mesomorphic in nature so i don't worry about fat as much.

    What i used to do was an increase of weight every set working my way up until failure or very close to it.
    Standing Triceps 5x10
    Shoulder Shrugs 5x20
    Reverse Curls 5x10
    Bench 5x10
    Standing Dumbbell flys 5x5
    Pec machine/upper flys 5x10
    Abs and some cardio then after a day of rest

    Squats 5x10
    Deadlifts 5x5-10
    Leg press 5x5-10
    Standing Calf Raises 5x12
    more abs and cardio then repeat after some rest
    Well you are doing way to much volume for strength gains. You want to stick to the 4-6 rep range for strength, using a deload day where you use lighter weights for 8-12 reps every few weeks or days depending on your training level.

    For the best overall strength gain I would do any 5x5 routine, be it madcow or bill starr or starting strength. You can't go very long, maybe 6 weeks before CNS failure if you are experienced, but they work damn good
  40. New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by votum View Post
    Well you are doing way to much volume for strength gains. You want to stick to the 4-6 rep range for strength, using a deload day where you use lighter weights for 8-12 reps every few weeks or days depending on your training level.

    For the best overall strength gain I would do any 5x5 routine, be it madcow or bill starr or starting strength. You can't go very long, maybe 6 weeks before CNS failure if you are experienced, but they work damn good
    Thanks for the info man I think im going to be doing the 5/3/1 that Elite suggested do though.
  

  
 

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