Compounds over Isolation? - AnabolicMinds.com

Compounds over Isolation?

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    Compounds over Isolation?


    I have been doing a lot of reading on here as of lately and looking at most of the routines, or suggested routines i have begun to wonder if im not getting the most out of my training. It seems like everyone on here believes compound full body sets are alot more productive. Is there just more power lifting on here over bodybuilding?

    I started lifting 3 years ago seriously and lived by The Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding, obvi by Arnold. Since i have read it twice and the first two years of lifting i basically used his beginner and advanced programs. I put on about 30lbs and probably lost around 15lbs of fat. After i started figuring out my body i realized that you pretty much need gear on a regular basis to keep up with the 2 day split workouts. I have been adjusting my rountine a lot this past year and experimenting with routines off line and mixing in stuff i thought worked best.

    I have started my first cycle of havoc about 10 days ago and really want to get the most out of it so i was wondering if there is a better routine than what i have come up with or it sounds good. Again my goals are based on bodybuilding, not powerlifting at the moment, i want to bring out the full development of each muscle, critiques are appreciated, thanks!

    (im in iraq so my schedule isnt flexible, 4 days on, 2 off, day 7 is back to day 1)


    Bi/Tris/Forearms

    Barbell Curls 8-10reps 4sets
    Hammers 8-10 4
    Incline's 8-10 4
    Concentration's 8-10 3
    Superset-Wrist curls+ Reverse Curls 10-12 4
    Sometimes add in 21's or preacher
    Skull Crushers 8-10 4
    Close Grip Bench 8-10 4
    Weighted Dips 10-14 4
    Kickbacks 10-12 4
    Cables Pressdowns 8-10 4
    Abs 15-20mins

    Legs

    Squats 8-10 4
    Hacks 8-10 4
    Leg curls 10-12 4
    Walking Lunges 10 per 3
    Calf Raises 20-25 4

    Chest/Back
    (Alternate BB and DB)

    Flat 8-10 4
    Incline 8-10 4
    Reverse Grip or Decline 8-10 3
    Flys (3 flat 3 incline) 8-10 6
    Pullups Failure 6
    Deadlifts 6-10 4
    Bent Over Rows 10-12 4
    Back Shrugs 8-10 4
    Close Grip Pulldowns 8-10 4
    Abs 15-20mins

    Shoulders

    Alternate Barbell Press/Clean and Press 8-10 4
    Front Raises 8-10 4
    Side Raises 8-10 4
    Rear Raises 8-10 4
    DB or BB Shrugs 8-10 4
    Sometimes add Arnolds 8-10 3

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    That's a lot of volume! You're doing 30+ total sets for arms!? That's simply too much, bro.

    Arnold's workouts may have worked well for Arnold, but for most people it's simply way too much. The trick is to find out what works best for you. For a lot of people, short, intense workouts seem to do the trick, considering your diet what it should be.

    Compound lifts involve multiple muscles and allow you to lift heavier weights, thus increasing overload. The more muscles that have to do work to complete a lift, the better the overall effect it has on your body (this is why squats and deadlifts are so good for total body development). You shouldn't rule out isolation exercises all together though; especially if you're bodybuilding.

    Here's a four day split that I've been using for a while that's based off a split I had been using a while back that really worked well for me. This newer version is working even better because I've got it balanced out better. It's really simple on paper and I make sure to pay special attention to technique. I'll go ahead and write it out...

    * Warm up however suits you best. I usually start with some basic stretching (dynamic and static, depending on what I'm doing), then I'll do about some work on the roman chair for about 5 minutes (not necessarily 5 minutes straight), then I'll use whatever my first lift is and warm up on that.

    ** For chest, lately I've been doing neck presses, which are working wonders for me. I'll just put in pressing movement to make it more generic. Bench presses don't work for me nearly as well as neck presses (for muscular development anyway). Check into them if building chest comes hard for you. It does for me and neck presses are great!

    *** This routine involves working each major muscle group twice per week with low volumes and high intensity. It works well, but you have to know when you're doing too much. I can't keep this routine up for too awful long before I need a break, and often I'll just take a day off if I feel like I need to. Listen to your body. Often times a day off is just what the doctor ordered. Change the sets/reps to suit your needs.

    Day 1 - Chest/Shoulders/Triceps/Abs
    Roman Chairs x 5 minutes (these are mainly for getting the CNS warmed up)
    Chest press (Neck Press for me) 4 x 10, 8, 6, 4-6
    Incline DB Press 3 x 8, 6, 4-6
    Arnold Presses or DB Presses 4 x 10, 8, 6, 4-6
    Weighted Triceps Dips 2 x 6ish
    (Abs) I usually do 1-2 exercises and maybe 4 total sets (deliberate reps, not fast)

    Day 2 - Back/Legs/Biceps
    Roman Chairs x 5 minutes
    Weighted Pull-ups 4 x 8-10ish (I vary the weight, make sure technique is awesome)
    Barbell Rows 4 x 10, 8, 6, 4-6
    Barbell Lunges 4 x 8-10
    Standing Calve Raises 3 x 10-12, 1 x 4-6
    (Biceps exercise) 1 x 8ish
    (Biceps exercise) 1 x 8ish (optional)

    Day 3 - Off

    Day 4 - Shoulders/Chest/Triceps/Abs
    Roman Chairs x 5 minutes
    Upright Rows 4 x 10, 8, 6, 4-6
    DB Presses 3 x 8, 6, 4-6
    Chest Press (Neck Press for me) 4 x 10, 8, 6, 4-6
    Weighted Triceps Dips 2 x 6ish
    (Abs) Same as above, I try to switch it up though

    Day 5 - Legs/Back/Biceps
    Roman Chairs x 5 minutes
    Squats 4 x 10-12, 8-10, 6-8, 4-6 (occasionally a 5 set of higher reps)
    Leg Curls 3-4 x 8-10ish
    Rowing exercise 4 x 10, 8, 6, 4-6
    (Biceps exercise) 1 x 6-8
    (Biceps exercise) 1 x 6-8 (optional)

    Day's 6, 7 - Off

    The next week I do a similar layout but I switch up some exercises... For instance, on Day 1 instead of doing incline DB presses I may do pullovers, which don't cause as much overload but are great for serratus development which makes the torso look great. I may switch up that one shoulder exercise as well. Other than switching out incline presses for pullovers, every other exercise I switch out is a compound for a compound, usually involving similar movements. For example, I may do underhand BB rows one week and overhand the next week, or maybe even swap for T-bar rows or cable rows. For legs, I usually stick with squats, leg presses, hack squats, lunges and leg curls (for direct hamstrings work). On the second week, on Day 2, instead of doing pull-ups, then rows, I'll do rows, then deadlifts (after through warmups I'll do 3 sets of 5, 3, 1). You can kind of use your imagination. As far as direct arm work goes, I try to keep it to a minimum. I like doing heavy weighted dips at the end of my "push" days, going really heavy and using a lot of concentration. For biceps, I get a lot of work from rowing movements. On deadlifts day, you may even want to cut out biceps completely. Often times less is more. My biceps are looking better and better and I've been doing less and less... The trick for me has been underhand BB rows and then when I do get to biceps-specific work, I'm very strict. Stretch a lot after your workouts.

    So it goes Week 1, Week 2, then Week 1, and so on until I feel like I need a break. The major change is deadlifts; rather than doing deads every week I just do them every two weeks.

    When working out, think about which muscles you want to be working and use the exercises that will bring those muscles into play. I try to design my workouts so that I'm hitting every area in balance. Rather than focusing on how much weight you're lifting, focus on establishing feel. Sure, you want to push yourself, but don't get so carried away with lifting weights that you forget that weights are just a means to and end. For example, sure I could load up a bar with plates and heave it to be doing rows, which would get me nowhere (injury maybe) or I could use less weight, stricter form, and watch my back develop more and more.

    PM me if you want more specifics
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    Type o is right. The volume is way to much. I can do Arnolds workout and see great results, but I am in tune with my body if i have to kick it back a day I will and so on. Also I only do that workout for short periods of time. Type o has a solid workout for you. You have to understand how your body responds to certain types of workouts before you jump into something with huge volume.
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    Arnold was a roided up genetic freak. What you need to focus on is your basic lifts like squats, deadlifts, bench press, barbell row, overhead press, and chinup and get those lifts as strong as possible. If your lifts are getting stronger and you're eating enough to get weight, what do you think is happening? You're gaining muscle. Powerlifting is not only for strength and for natural lifters I believe it is a much better route.
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    Arnold was a roided up genetic freak. What you need to focus on is your basic lifts like squats, deadlifts, bench press, barbell row, overhead press, and chinup and get those lifts as strong as possible. If your lifts are getting stronger and you're eating enough to get weight, what do you think is happening? You're gaining muscle. Powerlifting is not only for strength and for natural lifters I believe it is a much better route.
    i get you like power-lifting. but not everybody wants a power-lifting routine man. i get that you think its better but that is your opinion. i dont appreciate at the puns at body-builders. of course there are steroids involved but who cares. this is anabolicminds.com my friend.

    this isnt an attack at you, just a suggestion that you should present your info in a more unbiased way if you want more people to listen. every time i read your posts i visualise you sitting there hating bodybuilders always calling them genetic freaks who's routines dont work. if those guys took steroids and didnt lift they wouldnt look they way they do, theres a lot more to training like that than you think. steroids dont make you look like that without hard work. dedication still is a factor, there is no magic here.

    *** there is also steroid use in power-lifting man. its not always clean either
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    Quote Originally Posted by Type O Hero View Post
    That's a lot of volume! You're doing 30+ total sets for arms!? That's simply too much, bro.

    Arnold's workouts may have worked well for Arnold, but for most people it's simply way too much. The trick is to find out what works best for you. For a lot of people, short, intense workouts seem to do the trick, considering your diet what it should be.

    Compound lifts involve multiple muscles and allow you to lift heavier weights, thus increasing overload. The more muscles that have to do work to complete a lift, the better the overall effect it has on your body (this is why squats and deadlifts are so good for total body development). You shouldn't rule out isolation exercises all together though; especially if you're bodybuilding.

    Here's a four day split that I've been using for a while that's based off a split I had been using a while back that really worked well for me. This newer version is working even better because I've got it balanced out better. It's really simple on paper and I make sure to pay special attention to technique. I'll go ahead and write it out...

    * Warm up however suits you best. I usually start with some basic stretching (dynamic and static, depending on what I'm doing), then I'll do about some work on the roman chair for about 5 minutes (not necessarily 5 minutes straight), then I'll use whatever my first lift is and warm up on that.

    ** For chest, lately I've been doing neck presses, which are working wonders for me. I'll just put in pressing movement to make it more generic. Bench presses don't work for me nearly as well as neck presses (for muscular development anyway). Check into them if building chest comes hard for you. It does for me and neck presses are great!

    *** This routine involves working each major muscle group twice per week with low volumes and high intensity. It works well, but you have to know when you're doing too much. I can't keep this routine up for too awful long before I need a break, and often I'll just take a day off if I feel like I need to. Listen to your body. Often times a day off is just what the doctor ordered. Change the sets/reps to suit your needs.

    Day 1 - Chest/Shoulders/Triceps/Abs
    Roman Chairs x 5 minutes (these are mainly for getting the CNS warmed up)
    Chest press (Neck Press for me) 4 x 10, 8, 6, 4-6
    Incline DB Press 3 x 8, 6, 4-6
    Arnold Presses or DB Presses 4 x 10, 8, 6, 4-6
    Weighted Triceps Dips 2 x 6ish
    (Abs) I usually do 1-2 exercises and maybe 4 total sets (deliberate reps, not fast)

    Day 2 - Back/Legs/Biceps
    Roman Chairs x 5 minutes
    Weighted Pull-ups 4 x 8-10ish (I vary the weight, make sure technique is awesome)
    Barbell Rows 4 x 10, 8, 6, 4-6
    Barbell Lunges 4 x 8-10
    Standing Calve Raises 3 x 10-12, 1 x 4-6
    (Biceps exercise) 1 x 8ish
    (Biceps exercise) 1 x 8ish (optional)

    Day 3 - Off

    Day 4 - Shoulders/Chest/Triceps/Abs
    Roman Chairs x 5 minutes
    Upright Rows 4 x 10, 8, 6, 4-6
    DB Presses 3 x 8, 6, 4-6
    Chest Press (Neck Press for me) 4 x 10, 8, 6, 4-6
    Weighted Triceps Dips 2 x 6ish
    (Abs) Same as above, I try to switch it up though

    Day 5 - Legs/Back/Biceps
    Roman Chairs x 5 minutes
    Squats 4 x 10-12, 8-10, 6-8, 4-6 (occasionally a 5 set of higher reps)
    Leg Curls 3-4 x 8-10ish
    Rowing exercise 4 x 10, 8, 6, 4-6
    (Biceps exercise) 1 x 6-8
    (Biceps exercise) 1 x 6-8 (optional)

    Day's 6, 7 - Off

    The next week I do a similar layout but I switch up some exercises... For instance, on Day 1 instead of doing incline DB presses I may do pullovers, which don't cause as much overload but are great for serratus development which makes the torso look great. I may switch up that one shoulder exercise as well. Other than switching out incline presses for pullovers, every other exercise I switch out is a compound for a compound, usually involving similar movements. For example, I may do underhand BB rows one week and overhand the next week, or maybe even swap for T-bar rows or cable rows. For legs, I usually stick with squats, leg presses, hack squats, lunges and leg curls (for direct hamstrings work). On the second week, on Day 2, instead of doing pull-ups, then rows, I'll do rows, then deadlifts (after through warmups I'll do 3 sets of 5, 3, 1). You can kind of use your imagination. As far as direct arm work goes, I try to keep it to a minimum. I like doing heavy weighted dips at the end of my "push" days, going really heavy and using a lot of concentration. For biceps, I get a lot of work from rowing movements. On deadlifts day, you may even want to cut out biceps completely. Often times less is more. My biceps are looking better and better and I've been doing less and less... The trick for me has been underhand BB rows and then when I do get to biceps-specific work, I'm very strict. Stretch a lot after your workouts.

    So it goes Week 1, Week 2, then Week 1, and so on until I feel like I need a break. The major change is deadlifts; rather than doing deads every week I just do them every two weeks.

    When working out, think about which muscles you want to be working and use the exercises that will bring those muscles into play. I try to design my workouts so that I'm hitting every area in balance. Rather than focusing on how much weight you're lifting, focus on establishing feel. Sure, you want to push yourself, but don't get so carried away with lifting weights that you forget that weights are just a means to and end. For example, sure I could load up a bar with plates and heave it to be doing rows, which would get me nowhere (injury maybe) or I could use less weight, stricter form, and watch my back develop more and more.

    PM me if you want more specifics
    First, THANKS! Very informative repsonse, and the work out is def something im going to give a shot.

    Arms is the first thing that comes to mind though, my chest and shoulders respond very well, I can almost neglect them and they still grow, back and legs also respond decent but my arms are where I seem to have problems keeping them proportioned. To fix this Ive been incorporating methods of priority principle training and it seems to work well (im sure havoc also has a lot to do with it). I guess what im getting at (and not questioning just kinda want to hear your take) is do you think with my arms taking more to grow than usual 2 sets of direct bi's and tri dips will stimulate my arms enough? I am very aware of how bi come into play during pull up, rows, pulldowns etc and tri do a lot of work during chest and shoulers, but will this suffice?

    Also I used to run a 4 day split similiar to what you have set up but my schedule in Iraq kind of hinders ideal routines. I only have 4 consecutive days to train, then 2 where i go out and have no gym access so im basically working out on a 6 day schedule ( 4on 2off) for now....Hopefully this month my schedule will be gettin revamped and i can go with the 4 day split again.

    I completley agree with the compound exercises, not incorporating them at all is def shorting you capabilites, it just seems like a lot of people are resorting to just them. Sure thats great if you want to be a strongman or compete in powerlifting but I have no desire to go that route.

    As far as mixing up the order of exercises I have been doing that really since i began lifting. Form I believe isnot an area i lack at all. Grunting and jerking weights around has never really been an ambition, everyone laughs when i tell them and it sounds kind of dumb but i read years ago in Arnold book "think of the muscles contracting and moving the weight, not about the weight moving up and down" and now its stuck in my head on pretty much every lift since.

    Again though thanks man!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky5145 View Post
    i get you like power-lifting.



    every time i read your posts i visualise you sitting there hating bodybuilders always calling them genetic freaks who's routines dont work.

    ***
    lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky5145 View Post
    i get you like power-lifting. but not everybody wants a power-lifting routine man. i get that you think its better but that is your opinion. i dont appreciate at the puns at body-builders. of course there are steroids involved but who cares. this is anabolicminds.com my friend.

    this isnt an attack at you, just a suggestion that you should present your info in a more unbiased way if you want more people to listen. every time i read your posts i visualise you sitting there hating bodybuilders always calling them genetic freaks who's routines dont work. if those guys took steroids and didnt lift they wouldnt look they way they do, theres a lot more to training like that than you think. steroids dont make you look like that without hard work. dedication still is a factor, there is no magic here.

    *** there is also steroid use in power-lifting man. its not always clean either
    You are most certainly correct...I've seen some PL'ers run more juice than you can shake a stick at. There's definitely use and abuse in both realms, bodybuilding and powerlifting. They seem to have missed the class on receptor downgrading...lol!

    OP, as far as your training goes, just make sure you are benching, squatting, and deadlifting heavy, as in keep your reps five and under. Then add in a few isolation exercises of your choice for each bodypart, but be careful not to overtrain. The workout you have been doing would be hard for a juiced up silverback to keep up with, much less a guy with no AAS use.
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    The arms are relatively small muscles compared to the rest of your body and when you perform direct arm work, you're not using as much muscle as you would during a compound lift for a larger muscle group. Here's an example...

    Muscles used:
    Barbell Rows http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/Back...ntOverRow.html
    vs.
    Barbell Curls http://exrx.net/WeightExercises/Biceps/BBCurl.html

    ... So the bigger compound lifts involve more muscles, allow you to use heavier poundage and result in more overload. That's why if you're keeping your total workout volume low and your intensity high, you want the bulk of your lifts to be compound. Trust me, your arms get a lot of work when you do heavy compound lifts.

    During heavy compound lifts for the back, chest and shoulders, you're going to be involving your smaller arms muscles. You could never actually directly train your arm muscles and they would still hypertrophy if you were performing well in your bigger lifts and eating right. I do think that some direct arm work is important because it allows you to work those muscles through a full range of motion. Also, I think working muscles through a full range of motion brings out a better quality of shape. I work my arms at the end of my workouts because by then, they're already warmed up and then I can let them do some work through a full range of motion, which helps strengthen that muscle through it's full range of motion. I do one acclimation warm up set for my arms before I do my direct-arm sets (usually just a weight about 50% or so of my working set weight to get the muscle acclimated to working through a full range of motion; so if I wanted to do a couple of biceps exercises, I'd warm up with my first curling movement using 50% or so of the weight I want to use for my working sets).

    As far as how much volume you should give to direct arm work, that's for you to decide through trail and error. I can tell you that when it comes to direct arm work, too little is better for you than too much. If your arms are constantly fatigued, your other lifts will suffer and thus your arms development will suffer. I enjoy training my arms just as much as you do, but I know that too much can be counterproductive. It's nice to get your arms super pumped up, but remember that muscles grow later on when you're resting and not when they're pumped up in the gym.

    Just make sure that the few sets you allocate towards direct arm work are strong, deliberate sets. Make each rep count. This is where technique comes into play. For example, if you were doing curls, make sure your arc is wide, that you flex at the peak of the movement rather than letting the muscles go loose, lower the weight slowly under control to a full stretch. Also, something that helps me on any DB curling movement is when I start, I have my palms facing each other; as I curl the weight, I rotate my wrist outward so that at the peak of the movement, my pinky finger is trying to go higher than my thumb. When I do weighted dips, I try to really focus on the triceps (even though the pecs and shoulders are involved). I usually stop right before I lock out so that the triceps are having to contract a great deal to support me. Make sure you lower yourself to a full stretch. If you use better technique you'll see greater results.

    If you're used to doing high volume training for arms, try lower volume training for a while and see if it makes a difference for you. Every set should involve concentration. Really think about all of the muscles that should be working and use your effort and concentration to complete the lift. Remember, if bodybuilding is your game, the weight is just a means to and end rather than the actual goal (as it would be with weightlifters and powerlifters).

    As far as volume goes, the average person just doesn't require a lot of it to see results. Make sure your diet is where it should be and you'll see development with lower volumes. Keep in mind that your CNS can easily get fatigued, which can be detrimental to your goals. That's another reason why low volume/high intensity training is better than high volume; it doesn't cause CNS overload as easily. Keep your CNS happy and your muscles will be happy.

    Good luck, brotha. PM me if you wanna talk or anything. This is my home when I'm on the internet.. haha
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky5145 View Post
    i get you like power-lifting. but not everybody wants a power-lifting routine man. i get that you think its better but that is your opinion. i dont appreciate at the puns at body-builders. of course there are steroids involved but who cares. this is anabolicminds.com my friend.
    The fact is everyone should start with one. Everyone has the ability to make linear progress and the best way to add mass as a beginner is to focus on developing your bigger compound exercises.

    Once you develop those compounds through linear progress, full body routines, and food. Then you decide which route you will take - powerlifting vs. bodybuilding. IF you do decide bodybuilding then that is fine, but most people on here are not ready for that level of training yet.

    this isnt an attack at you, just a suggestion that you should present your info in a more unbiased way if you want more people to listen. every time i read your posts i visualise you sitting there hating bodybuilders always calling them genetic freaks who's routines dont work. if those guys took steroids and didnt lift they wouldnt look they way they do, theres a lot more to training like that than you think. steroids dont make you look like that without hard work. dedication still is a factor, there is no magic here.
    Anything will work for a genetic freak. Go to a gym and ask your average teenager with abs and rounded pecs his routine and principles and I guarantee you will laugh.

    *** there is also steroid use in power-lifting man. its not always clean either
    There are a lot more natural competing divisions. Furthermore, there are very few lightweight powerlifters that use steroids.
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS
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    There are a lot more natural competing divisions. Furthermore, there are very few lightweight powerlifters that use steroids.[/QUOTE]

    I agree with most of what you said with this exception; A lot of LW PL's use steroids for strength..not size. Not all, but a lot. Most that I competed with did. Not in divisions that were hardcore natural, but most had a personal medicine cabinet.
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    [QUOTEOnce you develop those compounds through linear progress, full body routines, and food. Then you decide which route you will take - powerlifting vs. bodybuilding. IF you do decide bodybuilding then that is fine, but most people on here are not ready for that level of training yet.

    Anything will work for a genetic freak. Go to a gym and ask your average teenager with abs and rounded pecs his routine and principles and I guarantee you will laugh.

    There are a lot more natural competing divisions. Furthermore, there are very few lightweight powerlifters that use steroids.[/QUOTE]

    see, that was a much better post, you sated good facts and your message is more clear without stricking at bodybuilders.

    however i do disagree about the steroid use topic. even the old US olympic weight lifting coach admitted ON FILM that all his lifters were juicing aswell as all the lifters from russia. there were all light weight powerlifter lifters.

    genetics play a big role in how someone will look but the truth is alot of the people who have good genetics for this dont know until they try. if you saw me 8 years ago youd never think in a million years that i could look the way i do now. some people look great without trainning but those guys rarely take there bodys any further than that. the people who take it to the extremes are the people who didnt know about it until they started trainning
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    I think bodybuilders and powerlifters can find alot of common ground, though I admit I don't always try.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky5145 View Post
    [QUOTEOnce you develop those compounds through linear progress, full body routines, and food. Then you decide which route you will take - powerlifting vs. bodybuilding. IF you do decide bodybuilding then that is fine, but most people on here are not ready for that level of training yet.

    Anything will work for a genetic freak. Go to a gym and ask your average teenager with abs and rounded pecs his routine and principles and I guarantee you will laugh.

    There are a lot more natural competing divisions. Furthermore, there are very few lightweight powerlifters that use steroids.

    see, that was a much better post, you sated good facts and your message is more clear without stricking at bodybuilders.

    however i do disagree about the steroid use topic. even the old US olympic weight lifting coach admitted ON FILM that all his lifters were juicing aswell as all the lifters from russia. there were all light weight powerlifter lifters.

    genetics play a big role in how someone will look but the truth is alot of the people who have good genetics for this dont know until they try. if you saw me 8 years ago youd never think in a million years that i could look the way i do now. some people look great without trainning but those guys rarely take there bodys any further than that. the people who take it to the extremes are the people who didnt know about it until they started trainning
    Yeah Olympic weightlifters have done so since the Russians invented it. I'm unsure of the whole story, but somehow Russian coaches admitted to a substance used to enhance lifting poundages and eventually the Americans began using it.

    When I recommend powerlifting routines to guys that want to get big it is usually the ones that are not ready to train like a bodybuilder yet. I'm both powerlifter and bodybuilder. I have the training of a powerlifting, but the diet and symmetry of a bodybuilder and think that anyone can do the same.

    There is nothing wrong with wanting to look big and honestly if you're not an Olympic lifter or a powerlifter that wants to stay in a specific weight class I'm willing to say 8 out of 10 people in the gym are there to look good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    Yeah Olympic weightlifters have done so since the Russians invented it. I'm unsure of the whole story, but somehow Russian coaches admitted to a substance used to enhance lifting poundages and eventually the Americans began using it.

    When I recommend powerlifting routines to guys that want to get big it is usually the ones that are not ready to train like a bodybuilder yet. I'm both powerlifter and bodybuilder. I have the training of a powerlifting, but the diet and symmetry of a bodybuilder and think that anyone can do the same.

    There is nothing wrong with wanting to look big and honestly if you're not an Olympic lifter or a powerlifter that wants to stay in a specific weight class I'm willing to say 8 out of 10 people in the gym are there to look good.
    oh for sure man. im willing to be 9 out 10 are there to look good
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    The fact is everyone should start with one. Everyone has the ability to make linear progress and the best way to add mass as a beginner is to focus on developing your bigger compound exercises.

    Once you develop those compounds through linear progress, full body routines, and food. Then you decide which route you will take - powerlifting vs. bodybuilding. IF you do decide bodybuilding then that is fine, but most people on here are not ready for that level of training yet.



    Anything will work for a genetic freak. Go to a gym and ask your average teenager with abs and rounded pecs his routine and principles and I guarantee you will laugh.





    There are a lot more natural competing divisions. Furthermore, there are very few lightweight powerlifters that use steroids.
    A natural division does not insure natural competitors. There have been many lifters that competed in the IPF (which is king of drug-free PL organizations) and set world records that were loaded. That's not a very solid argument.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Type O Hero View Post
    The arms are relatively small muscles compared to the rest of your body and when you perform direct arm work, you're not using as much muscle as you would during a compound lift for a larger muscle group. Here's an example...



    ... So the bigger compound lifts involve more muscles, allow you to use heavier poundage and result in more overload. That's why if you're keeping your total workout volume low and your intensity high, you want the bulk of your lifts to be compound. Trust me, your arms get a lot of work when you do heavy compound lifts.

    During heavy compound lifts for the back, chest and shoulders, you're going to be involving your smaller arms muscles. You could never actually directly train your arm muscles and they would still hypertrophy if you were performing well in your bigger lifts and eating right. I do think that some direct arm work is important because it allows you to work those muscles through a full range of motion. Also, I think working muscles through a full range of motion brings out a better quality of shape. I work my arms at the end of my workouts because by then, they're already warmed up and then I can let them do some work through a full range of motion, which helps strengthen that muscle through it's full range of motion. I do one acclimation warm up set for my arms before I do my direct-arm sets (usually just a weight about 50% or so of my working set weight to get the muscle acclimated to working through a full range of motion; so if I wanted to do a couple of biceps exercises, I'd warm up with my first curling movement using 50% or so of the weight I want to use for my working sets).

    As far as how much volume you should give to direct arm work, that's for you to decide through trail and error. I can tell you that when it comes to direct arm work, too little is better for you than too much. If your arms are constantly fatigued, your other lifts will suffer and thus your arms development will suffer. I enjoy training my arms just as much as you do, but I know that too much can be counterproductive. It's nice to get your arms super pumped up, but remember that muscles grow later on when you're resting and not when they're pumped up in the gym.

    Just make sure that the few sets you allocate towards direct arm work are strong, deliberate sets. Make each rep count. This is where technique comes into play. For example, if you were doing curls, make sure your arc is wide, that you flex at the peak of the movement rather than letting the muscles go loose, lower the weight slowly under control to a full stretch. Also, something that helps me on any DB curling movement is when I start, I have my palms facing each other; as I curl the weight, I rotate my wrist outward so that at the peak of the movement, my pinky finger is trying to go higher than my thumb. When I do weighted dips, I try to really focus on the triceps (even though the pecs and shoulders are involved). I usually stop right before I lock out so that the triceps are having to contract a great deal to support me. Make sure you lower yourself to a full stretch. If you use better technique you'll see greater results.

    If you're used to doing high volume training for arms, try lower volume training for a while and see if it makes a difference for you. Every set should involve concentration. Really think about all of the muscles that should be working and use your effort and concentration to complete the lift. Remember, if bodybuilding is your game, the weight is just a means to and end rather than the actual goal (as it would be with weightlifters and powerlifters).

    As far as volume goes, the average person just doesn't require a lot of it to see results. Make sure your diet is where it should be and you'll see development with lower volumes. Keep in mind that your CNS can easily get fatigued, which can be detrimental to your goals. That's another reason why low volume/high intensity training is better than high volume; it doesn't cause CNS overload as easily. Keep your CNS happy and your muscles will be happy.

    Good luck, brotha. PM me if you wanna talk or anything. This is my home when I'm on the internet.. haha
    Again thanks for the thorough reponse, what your saying def makes sense, i guess just cause i idolized Arnold so much i figured his style of listing was second to none. After i started gaining knowledge of how my body was reacting and figuring out what worked i started to realize that the high volume work outs are just too much for what im trying to accomplish at my level.
    Im gonna start the routine you posted after i finish this week and take a day off. I have always been reluctant to going so much lower with the volume and really have no idea how my body reacts to these workout but im excited to give them a shot. I will keep you posted on my progress man and again thanks a lot for your input.

    just to double tap....squats for instance you have 4x10, 8, 6, 4-6...7 sets total correct? sry if that sounds like a noob question just want to make sure i understood how you were typing it out
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ironhyde View Post

    OP, as far as your training goes, just make sure you are benching, squatting, and deadlifting heavy, as in keep your reps five and under. Then add in a few isolation exercises of your choice for each bodypart, but be careful not to overtrain. The workout you have been doing would be hard for a juiced up silverback to keep up with, much less a guy with no AAS use.
    haha thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCL86 View Post
    Again thanks for the thorough reponse, what your saying def makes sense, i guess just cause i idolized Arnold so much i figured his style of listing was second to none. After i started gaining knowledge of how my body was reacting and figuring out what worked i started to realize that the high volume work outs are just too much for what im trying to accomplish at my level.
    Im gonna start the routine you posted after i finish this week and take a day off. I have always been reluctant to going so much lower with the volume and really have no idea how my body reacts to these workout but im excited to give them a shot. I will keep you posted on my progress man and again thanks a lot for your input.

    just to double tap....squats for instance you have 4x10, 8, 6, 4-6...7 sets total correct? sry if that sounds like a noob question just want to make sure i understood how you were typing it out
    I've learned some pretty cool stuff by reading some of Arnold's books, but a lot of his advice is given almost as if he were talking to a clone of himself, so you kind of have to weed through it. Sure he did steroids, but had he never done them and worked out hard, he still would have had an amazing physique. At least the bodybuilders of yesteryear had some asthetic qualities to their physiques unlike today's "professional bodybuilders" who, in my opinion, look ridiculous. I'm not saying these guys haven't worked their asses off, but damn, they are the opposite of aesthetically pleasing. It's funny, I saw a somewhat recent picture of Kevin Levrone and he's lost a ton of mass, but looks better than he used to! Natural competitive bodybuilders deserve much more respect than the "pros."

    Anyway, sorry to go off on a rant...

    When I had it written out such as 4 x 10, 8, 6, 4-6, what I meant was 10 reps on the first set, then 8 reps, 6 reps, then on the last set, increase weight so that you'd reach positive failure somewhere between 4 and 6 reps. Often times I'll shoot for 10-12, 8-10, 6-8, 4-6, but most of the time it usually works out like 10, 8, 6, 4-6ish. You can switch the reps up to suit your own needs. This is what works well for me. Other people may benefit more from slightly higher rep ranges, or even lower ones. I'm really warmed up before I hit the weights hard, so I like to have a little of everything (i.e, the first couple sets are 8-10ish reps then the last two sets are heavier.

    If you make every set really intense, that will be more than enough volume. Coincidentally, today I did squats, then leg curls, then when I was warming up for barbell rows I realized how exhausted I was! When I was doing the squats I'd take a minutes rest after the first set, then a minutes rest after the second, then when I really increased the weight I would allow for 1.5-2 minute rest periods. Again, this is what works well for me.

    I was so tired after that short, intense leg workout that by the time I got to barbell rows, I wasn't able to lift as much as I wanted. I may swap barbell rows out for something like cable rows. Still keep it intense, but at least my ass will be glued to a seat. The whole time I "felt" like I should have been doing cable rows. I guess it makes sense to pay attention to instincts sometimes! Throughout the week I just make sure that I'm hitting every muscle group from a variety of angles and when it comes to back, I want to hit the pulldown and rowing motions. As long as I see myself improving in the mirror, I'm less interested in how much weight I'm lifting. Of course over time you gradually increase the amount of weight you use, but I'm just saying.. lol, I should shut up now
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    Its all been covered thoroughly already, but yeah, way too much volume, Arnold was a freak, not a dig, I wish I was a freak like him, and compound, the goal is heavy-ier, doesnt have to be powerlifting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Type O Hero View Post
    I've learned some pretty cool stuff by reading some of Arnold's books, but a lot of his advice is given almost as if he were talking to a clone of himself, so you kind of have to weed through it. Sure he did steroids, but had he never done them and worked out hard, he still would have had an amazing physique. At least the bodybuilders of yesteryear had some asthetic qualities to their physiques unlike today's "professional bodybuilders" who, in my opinion, look ridiculous. I'm not saying these guys haven't worked their asses off, but damn, they are the opposite of aesthetically pleasing. It's funny, I saw a somewhat recent picture of Kevin Levrone and he's lost a ton of mass, but looks better than he used to! Natural competitive bodybuilders deserve much more respect than the "pros."

    Anyway, sorry to go off on a rant...

    When I had it written out such as 4 x 10, 8, 6, 4-6, what I meant was 10 reps on the first set, then 8 reps, 6 reps, then on the last set, increase weight so that you'd reach positive failure somewhere between 4 and 6 reps. Often times I'll shoot for 10-12, 8-10, 6-8, 4-6, but most of the time it usually works out like 10, 8, 6, 4-6ish. You can switch the reps up to suit your own needs. This is what works well for me. Other people may benefit more from slightly higher rep ranges, or even lower ones. I'm really warmed up before I hit the weights hard, so I like to have a little of everything (i.e, the first couple sets are 8-10ish reps then the last two sets are heavier.

    If you make every set really intense, that will be more than enough volume. Coincidentally, today I did squats, then leg curls, then when I was warming up for barbell rows I realized how exhausted I was! When I was doing the squats I'd take a minutes rest after the first set, then a minutes rest after the second, then when I really increased the weight I would allow for 1.5-2 minute rest periods. Again, this is what works well for me.

    I was so tired after that short, intense leg workout that by the time I got to barbell rows, I wasn't able to lift as much as I wanted. I may swap barbell rows out for something like cable rows. Still keep it intense, but at least my ass will be glued to a seat. The whole time I "felt" like I should have been doing cable rows. I guess it makes sense to pay attention to instincts sometimes! Throughout the week I just make sure that I'm hitting every muscle group from a variety of angles and when it comes to back, I want to hit the pulldown and rowing motions. As long as I see myself improving in the mirror, I'm less interested in how much weight I'm lifting. Of course over time you gradually increase the amount of weight you use, but I'm just saying.. lol, I should shut up now
    haha no its cool, as far as technique and intensity go I didnt start lifting yesterday but how much is too much is something ive been trying to experiment with for awhile. My first year and a half of rly hittin the weight serious i used 12 10 8 6 as my sets, obviously going to failure on atleast 8 and 6 and so far have had the best luck with this format. Ive been doing a lot of reading as of lately and read in a couple books/magazines that 8-10 reps recruit the most muscle fibers in return forcing the most growth. Again, there are a million people who swear a million ways are the best way to "get big" and its really up to you and your body, figuring out what truly makes YOU grow the best. I have shoulders today and then a day off, Im gonna finish my last 2 weeks on havoc using your routine and through PCT, prob pretty bias as to how it works with me lol but i will let you know how i like it.

    You seem like you like to bs and your pretty knowledgeable lol so not to drag in other topics but have you ever tried the 5x5 workouts? I was thinkin of switchin my routine up in a couple months and building some strength for a month or two. The 5x5 seems like a killer strength workout. I was looking more into the modified 5x5 which i believe was something like 75% of your max one rep at a time for 5 reps at 5 sets...ever used this routine?
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    I've tried 5x5 before but I didn't enjoy it. If you think that or a modified version would work well for you, try it. Even with the routine I do, I have my rep schemes set up how I personally like them. When I recommend that routine to anyone else I tell them to switch up the set/rep ranges to suit their needs. Some people can handle higher volumes, some can't, some get a lot of response out of higher rep ranges, some benefit from lifting heavier with lower rep ranges. Some people have better genetics for building good physiques or great strength, some don't and many have to work their asses off to build their potential.

    I don't train for strength; I train purely for aesthetics. To me, strength gains are arbitrary. I use the weights to train my muscles and as my muscles develop my strength increases, but strength isn't my primary goal or desire. I'm pretty stout, but I could care less about how much I bench, squat, deadlift, ect.. Sometimes other guys come up to me in the gym and ask me what my max is on a certain lift and they're usually surprised when I tell them that I have no clue and really don't care! lol

    I do care about functional strength but since I don't play any competitive sports or anything of that nature I could care less about achieving maximum strength and power. I mean, if someone calls me and asks me to help them move heavy furniture, I can help them no problem, but my lifestyle doesn't call for me to have to bench or squat super heavy weights or wrestle gorillas. Coincidentally, I was at my physical strongest about 2 years ago when at 188lbs (about 10lbs more than I weigh now) I was benching, squatting and deadlifting a whole lot more than I can right now, but physique-wise, I look better now then I did then and that's what I want.

    What I'm getting at is, try to figure out what your goals are and what you want out of training, then fix up your regimen to meet those goals. You personally sound like you've got a good head on your shoulders so you'll be in good shape but a lot of fellas know what they want but have no clue how to get there.

    Quote Originally Posted by RCL86 View Post
    You seem like you like to bs and your pretty knowledgeable lol so not to drag in other topics...
    lol oops
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    I do chest, back and calves, legs, arms ,and shoulders and traps. To get the most out of your workouts almost every set should be taken to failure, you shouldnt say you gonna do ten reps and be done even if you could have done more. You have to do enough damage to the muscle fibers in order to push more growth. At least thats how how i have been doing it for a while now and it's working quite well. Also i feel that you shouldn't combine chest and back for the fact that i know on my back day when im done with my back workout and move to calves I am dead tired, so in turn if i was to do chest afterwards i wouldn't get much out of it due to lack of energy. If it works for you then more power to you. I also feel that compound are THE WAY TO GO especially like deadlifts, squats, bench, and military press all necessary to get bigger and stronger.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Type O Hero View Post
    I've tried 5x5 before but I didn't enjoy it. If you think that or a modified version would work well for you, try it. Even with the routine I do, I have my rep schemes set up how I personally like them. When I recommend that routine to anyone else I tell them to switch up the set/rep ranges to suit their needs. Some people can handle higher volumes, some can't, some get a lot of response out of higher rep ranges, some benefit from lifting heavier with lower rep ranges. Some people have better genetics for building good physiques or great strength, some don't and many have to work their asses off to build their potential.

    I don't train for strength; I train purely for aesthetics. To me, strength gains are arbitrary. I use the weights to train my muscles and as my muscles develop my strength increases, but strength isn't my primary goal or desire. I'm pretty stout, but I could care less about how much I bench, squat, deadlift, ect.. Sometimes other guys come up to me in the gym and ask me what my max is on a certain lift and they're usually surprised when I tell them that I have no clue and really don't care! lol

    I do care about functional strength but since I don't play any competitive sports or anything of that nature I could care less about achieving maximum strength and power. I mean, if someone calls me and asks me to help them move heavy furniture, I can help them no problem, but my lifestyle doesn't call for me to have to bench or squat super heavy weights or wrestle gorillas. Coincidentally, I was at my physical strongest about 2 years ago when at 188lbs (about 10lbs more than I weigh now) I was benching, squatting and deadlifting a whole lot more than I can right now, but physique-wise, I look better now then I did then and that's what I want.

    What I'm getting at is, try to figure out what your goals are and what you want out of training, then fix up your regimen to meet those goals. You personally sound like you've got a good head on your shoulders so you'll be in good shape but a lot of fellas know what they want but have no clue how to get there.



    lol oops
    haha no worries, thats what i was looking for...yeah i agree completely with not having sights set on strength, i too am much more interested in what i look like vs how cool i look throwing weight around in the gym. I just like to change up my reps every 2-3 months. I like to lift for balance mainly (12-4 drop sets) but i found if i go into some low rep stuff for a month or so it helps break a plateau and gives me a little more diversity. That famous question though always does make me laugh, "how much do you bench?" lol idk why how much you bench has become a means of how big your balls are.

    Day off today, looking forward to starting your 4day split tomorrow! thanks for everything brother
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadlift18 View Post
    I do chest, back and calves, legs, arms ,and shoulders and traps. To get the most out of your workouts almost every set should be taken to failure, you shouldnt say you gonna do ten reps and be done even if you could have done more. You have to do enough damage to the muscle fibers in order to push more growth. At least thats how how i have been doing it for a while now and it's working quite well. Also i feel that you shouldn't combine chest and back for the fact that i know on my back day when im done with my back workout and move to calves I am dead tired, so in turn if i was to do chest afterwards i wouldn't get much out of it due to lack of energy. If it works for you then more power to you. I also feel that compound are THE WAY TO GO especially like deadlifts, squats, bench, and military press all necessary to get bigger and stronger.
    I have to agree with you on the stopping at a set number of reps, I wasnt saying i just reach 10 and stop. Every rep uses only a small number of muscle fibers to complete the movement, then when those muscle fibers start to fail they recruit more to help out, this goes on until muscle failure (all muscle fibers have been recruited). All i was saying is on reps 10+ i usually only go until i cant complete another rep on my own, i save the forced rep stuff for under 10. Basically making sure my muscles are as warm as they're gonna get before i go into overload.

    As for chest and back i can see how people wouldnt like it. I also change this frequently. The reasoning was i wanted to limit helping muscle on the same day or being back to back days (ie chest/tris, back/bis, tris/shoulders) You know its like anything, you have to comprimise whats important to you, for instance, if you do chest then tris, your not gonna have the same power you would on tris if you were to do them first, but chest would be impossible. In the Arnold book he talks about how supersetting pullups and bench helps to stretch out you pecs while doing pullups....i didnt see it helping me much on the chest portion but pullups felt great ss with bench. Anyways, thanks for the input man!
  

  
 

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