can i replace squats with another exercise

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    Exclamation can i replace squats with another exercise


    im getting alot of lower back pain recently from squats can substitute them with any other exercises for a month or 2 any suggestions

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    leg press (plate loaded). also called the SLED.

    http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/...=0001860715689
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    thanks suncloud i appriciate the help only prob i only have a bench and workout from home anything i can do there i tried the zercher ? squat and was still sore
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    i get back pain when my form breaks down. i'd suggest troubleshooting your form before giving up on THE MAIN massbuilding movement. post a vid here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by urbanski View Post
    i get back pain when my form breaks down. i'd suggest troubleshooting your form before giving up on THE MAIN massbuilding movement. post a vid here.
    will try thanks maybe it is my form i thought it might be my hight but deadlifts are fine
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    i agree with urbanski. its more likely than not form. if you could post a vid that would help. without that, and working out of your home, there's very little i could suggest besides walking lunges (with barbells).
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    99% of squat issues are due to poor form.
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    Quote Originally Posted by suncloud View Post
    i agree with urbanski. its more likely than not form. if you could post a vid that would help. without that, and working out of your home, there's very little i could suggest besides walking lunges (with barbells).
    thanks i will try and correct my form and post a vid
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    yes, Dumbell lunges, and leg press, hack squats, leg ext. these are in my rotation
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    Change it up to front squats. Reduces the ability to cheat with your back so much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopyCat View Post
    Change it up to front squats. Reduces the ability to cheat with your back so much.
    how do front squats work is that not like the zercher squat? thanks for the help ill try anything always up to try new exercises
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr mass View Post
    how do front squats work is that not like the zercher squat? thanks for the help ill try anything always up to try new exercises
    Not the same as zercher. Here is a vid, you can find many more just by typing in front squat to youtube. For arm placement some people hold them like in this video, others cross their arms almost like they are doing the universal sign for choking except their hands are not actually on their throat, but past it more towards the shoulders. You'll see it in the vids if you look them up.

    YouTube- Front Squats are used for CrossFit as an exercise to improve posture and power during training
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    Front squats kick ass. I prefer them over back squats currently.

    And your height has nothing to do with squats making your back hurt - bad form and a weak core does though.
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    There are no replacements for squats. I would go to a Doctor and have my lower back checked out and then perhaps take some time off. It seems like it'd be more of a form problem.

    Leg presses are hard on the spine. While you're recuperating you could include lunges for the quads and glute/ham raises for the hamstrings and glutes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopyCat View Post
    Change it up to front squats. Reduces the ability to cheat with your back so much.
    And it also takes out a lot of the core involvement and posterior chain utilization.
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    Along with the front squat, look into one leg squat variations such as the bulgarian split squat(otherwise known as a rear foot elevated split squat). It is easier on the back, and you can still get some decent loading.

    Edit: I have to add that it is almost certainly poor form that is causing the pain, and that it is best to figure that out and correct it. Back squats are basically the best movement you can do(concerning size and overall strength), with the exception of maybe deadlifts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rckvl7 View Post
    with the exception of maybe deadlifts.
    Ya know. I've always wanted to compare the two in a study to see which one would produce the most mass. The obvious solution of course is do both, but deadlifts work more muscles and allow you to lift heavier weight and squats have a longer ROM and keep the entire kinetic chain under isometric tension from the minute the bar is unracked until it is then racked again.

    Does anyone have any studies or supportive articles comparing the two?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    And it also takes out a lot of the core involvement and posterior chain utilization.
    Not at all. Just take a wider stance and make sure your ROM is good, and you'll hit your hammies and glutes no prob.

    As for core, Front have always proved far more difficult on that area than back squats for me. Most guys can front squat way less than than their back squat largely because the core activation is so much greater. Also because the form is so much more demanding.
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    wow thanks for all the help great to get some advice from people who know what there doing i will go to the doc and hopefully sort my lower back out so i can get squating again
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resolve View Post
    Not at all. Just take a wider stance and make sure your ROM is good, and you'll hit your hammies and glutes no prob.

    As for core, Front have always proved far more difficult on that area than back squats for me. Most guys can front squat way less than than their back squat largely because the core activation is so much greater. Also because the form is so much more demanding.
    Sorry, but there is no way a front squat is harder on a core than the back squat. During the back squat the resistance is placed over the back, which causes the torso to move forward and keep parallel alignment with the feet and bar. This causes isometric contraction to the core that the body in front and back are under tension. And front squats do not hit the posterior chain nowhere near as hard as back squats.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    Sorry, but there is no way a front squat is harder on a core than the back squat. During the back squat the resistance is placed over the back, which causes the torso to move forward and keep parallel alignment with the feet and bar. This causes isometric contraction to the core that the body in front and back are under tension. And front squats do not hit the posterior chain nowhere near as hard as back squats.
    It most definitely IS harder on the core. The front bar loading will PULL you forward. Your core will work hard to keep your torso upright. It does not sound like you have any OL style training under your belt at all. If Mark Rippetoe said the same thing, would you believe him? Because he did too.
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    I had always heard that Front squats were harder on the core, but to be honest I don't really know. I do know that Front squats don't hit the posterior chain as well as a back squat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastRonin View Post
    It most definitely IS harder on the core. The front bar loading will PULL you forward. Your core will work hard to keep your torso upright. It does not sound like you have any OL style training under your belt at all. If Mark Rippetoe said the same thing, would you believe him? Because he did too.
    You have more weight over your body doing back squats, which causes the core to work harder. And yes, please provide me a link with Rippetoe saying front squats are harder on the core.

    And there's no way front squats work the posterior chain to any reasonable degree. Your posterior chain is worked because you are breaking parallel and using hip extension. You cannot use hip extension during a front squat and you cannot drive weight up using your hips.

    Front squats are quad dominant.

    Rippetoe goes into some detail on the subject on pages 223-230 of the 2nd Edition of starting strength.

    Key points:

    -Hamstrings are already shortened & the positioning of the bar makes it impossible to use hip drive as a cue.
    -The body is kept as vertical as possible, in comparison to the back squat where some amount of forward lean is desired
    -More core stabilization is needed because of the bar positioning
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    Sorry, but there is no way a front squat is harder on a core than the back squat. During the back squat the resistance is placed over the back, which causes the torso to move forward and keep parallel alignment with the feet and bar. This causes isometric contraction to the core that the body in front and back are under tension. And front squats do not hit the posterior chain nowhere near as hard as back squats.
    Yup, the torso moves forward, which can countered by spinal erector activation. With front squats, load is placed directly over your abs - lower back has to remain arched and those abs have to flex like hell to keep from caving.

    Shoot man, you can literally do front squat partials as an ab exercise - rack the bar across your shoulders, extend your arms up and away from you and do about a 1/2 squat. Hold for time.

    I grant that back squats do activate the posterior chain better, and for that very reason I incorporate them as an accessory movement; but I have seen better quad, calf and ab development in the few months I've focused on the front squat than in the years I've spent focused on the back squat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    You have more weight over your body doing back squats, which causes the core to work harder. And yes, please provide me a link with Rippetoe saying front squats are harder on the core.

    And there's no way front squats work the posterior chain to any reasonable degree. Your posterior chain is worked because you are breaking parallel and using hip extension. You cannot use hip extension during a front squat and you cannot drive weight up using your hips.

    Front squats are quad dominant.
    No, you can move more weight because it takes less effort per pound of load.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resolve View Post
    No, you can move more weight because it takes less effort per pound of load.
    No. You move more weight because the posterior chain is utilized much more and your hips are stronger than your knees.

    Front squats place emphasis on the quads and quads don't squat big weights - the posterior chain does.

    Read Dave Tate's 900 lb squat article. I can't link it to you.

    And if you read my post above in starting strength Mark Rippetoe goes into major detail on how the core works harder during back squats. All you're talking is taking much of the core and posterior chain (both are important) out of the situation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    No. You move more weight because the posterior chain is utilized much more and your hips are stronger than your knees.

    Front squats place emphasis on the quads and quads don't squat big weights - the posterior chain does.

    Read Dave Tate's 900 lb squat article. I can't link it to you.

    And if you read my post above in starting strength Mark Rippetoe goes into major detail on how the core works harder during back squats. All you're talking is taking much of the core and posterior chain (both are important) out of the situation.
    Exactly - more posterior chain activation (which I've already told you you were right about) occurs, spreading the load over a larger number of motor units.

    That is exactly why you can back squat more, but that doesn't mean the core individually is working harder.

    Will your core gain strength from back squatting? Absolutely. But take a guy with a 400+ back squat who's never front squatted and have him front squat 135 (or less if need be) for 5x5. His abs will feel it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resolve View Post
    Exactly - more posterior chain activation (which I've already told you you were right about) occurs, spreading the load over a larger number of motor units.

    That is exactly why you can back squat more, but that doesn't mean the core individually is working harder.

    Will your core gain strength from back squatting? Absolutely. But take a guy with a 400+ back squat who's never front squatted and have him front squat 135 (or less if need be) for 5x5. His abs will feel it.
    Likewise. Take a guy that is used to front squatting 135 and put 405 lbs on his back and see if he can withstand the same time under tension with that resistance as the guy back squatting.

    The core muscles are not just the abs; they are also the lower back muscles which contract significantly harder with back squats than front squats.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    Likewise. Take a guy that is used to front squatting 135 and put 405 lbs on his back and see if he can withstand the same time under tension with that resistance as the guy back squatting.

    The core muscles are not just the abs; they are also the lower back muscles which contract significantly harder with back squats than front squats.
    LOL?! Are you serious?! If a guy can only front squat 135, how in the hell do you expect him to lift 405 for anything?! That's ridiculous!

    You don't think a guy who can back squat 400 but only front squat 135 has a muscle imbalance that needs to be redressed? I do! And that imbalance would be where? In the core! Because you have to stabilize that whole front half of your core (as you state, the core is both up front and in back), which you are unaccustomed to using so much, in order to keep your torso as upright as possible.

    And yes, the "back" of the core is worked harder on "back" squats, but the "front" of the core is worked harder on "front squats." And both are equally important.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resolve View Post
    LOL?! Are you serious?! If a guy can only front squat 135, how in the hell do you expect him to lift 405 for anything?! That's ridiculous!

    You don't think a guy who can back squat 400 but only front squat 135 has a muscle imbalance that needs to be redressed? I do! And that imbalance would be where? In the core! Because you have to stabilize that whole front half of your core (as you state, the core is both up front and in back), which you are unaccustomed to using so much, in order to keep your torso as upright as possible.

    And yes, the "back" of the core is worked harder on "back" squats, but the "front" of the core is worked harder on "front squats." And both are equally important.
    You misread my post.

    I said see how long he can keep under the bar; how long his core could support it. A guy that back squats 405 can easily stay under the bar of a front squat (isometrically) longer than a guy that front squats 135 can stay under the bar with a 405 lb back squat. And as far as core imbalance goes, I used an example contrary to yours.

    You are looking at pound for pound measurements of strength. Of course a 405 lb front squat will require more stabilize maturity than a 405 lb back squat, but if the weights used is in proper alignment the back squat will demand more stabilize use (from the core) because your body works harder to stabilize heavier loads.

    And the torso is upright during high bar squats, as they are with front squats which would contract the the front of the core much harder. According to the all or none principle all fibers from the front of the core must contract with a back squat. Your body will work harder to support heavier weight over your center of gravity - with back squats.

    Anyway, front squats are not a suitable replacement for back squats for a few reasons. Namely, the overactive hip flexors and understimulated hip extensors can cause lordosis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    You misread my post.

    I said see how long he can keep under the bar; how long his core could support it. A guy that back squats 405 can easily stay under the bar of a front squat (isometrically) longer than a guy that front squats 135 can stay under the bar with a 405 lb back squat. And as far as core imbalance goes, I used an example contrary to yours.

    You are looking at pound for pound measurements of strength. Of course a 405 lb front squat will require more stabilize maturity than a 405 lb back squat, but if the weights used is in proper alignment the back squat will demand more stabilize use (from the core) because your body works harder to stabilize heavier loads.

    And the torso is upright during high bar squats, as they are with front squats which would contract the the front of the core much harder. According to the all or none principle all fibers from the front of the core must contract with a back squat. Your body will work harder to support heavier weight over your center of gravity - with back squats.

    Anyway, front squats are not a suitable replacement for back squats for a few reasons. Namely, the overactive hip flexors and understimulated hip extensors can cause lordosis.
    What I have bolded was entirely my point. Pound for pound, front squats are harder on the core than back squats. That's all I was trying to say. Thanks!
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    @ Kingkong:

    I think we are missing the purpose of my statement. He has back pain from doing squats. We all pretty much agree universally that it is most likely from poor form. My suggestion for him to switch to front squats has a couple points to it. It will force him to follow a more proper form. There is a good chance that he is using his back to leverage the weight up, as in leaning too far forward and using his back while coming up rather than keep his spine inline and using his hams/glutes and driving his hips forward to lift the weight. With the front squat you have less room for error like that. If you do, you'll lose the bar off the front. It will also allow him to keep squatting and give his back some rest, hopefully allowing it to recovery healthily. The front squat is a great tool to teach form with. However, we all probably agree that to only do front squats is not what is being said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    You have more weight over your body doing back squats, which causes the core to work harder. And yes, please provide me a link with Rippetoe saying front squats are harder on the core.

    And there's no way front squats work the posterior chain to any reasonable degree. Your posterior chain is worked because you are breaking parallel and using hip extension. You cannot use hip extension during a front squat and you cannot drive weight up using your hips.

    Front squats are quad dominant.

    Rippetoe goes into some detail on the subject on pages 223-230 of the 2nd Edition of starting strength.

    Key points:

    -Hamstrings are already shortened & the positioning of the bar makes it impossible to use hip drive as a cue.
    -The body is kept as vertical as possible, in comparison to the back squat where some amount of forward lean is desired
    -More core stabilization is needed because of the bar positioning
    Mark does not have his books and articles in quotations on the internet.Only fragments, like what you found. You will actually have to read them yourself, by buying his books and subscribing to crossfit or joining his forum and posting a new thread. Which I will just to post his response. lol and way to plagerise a post on T-nation word for word.
    I know what he will say though from what he has mentioned in threads before.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastRonin View Post
    Mark does not have his books and articles in quotations on the internet.Only fragments, like what you found. You will actually have to read them yourself, by buying his books and subscribing to crossfit or joining his forum and posting a new thread. Which I will just to post his response. lol and way to plagerise a post on T-nation word for word.
    I know what he will say though from what he has mentioned in threads before.
    I have bought and read Mark's book. I am aware of what is written in his book. And no it's not "plagiarism" to post something when you can't provide a link.
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopyCat View Post
    @ Kingkong:

    I think we are missing the purpose of my statement. He has back pain from doing squats. We all pretty much agree universally that it is most likely from poor form. My suggestion for him to switch to front squats has a couple points to it. It will force him to follow a more proper form. There is a good chance that he is using his back to leverage the weight up, as in leaning too far forward and using his back while coming up rather than keep his spine inline and using his hams/glutes and driving his hips forward to lift the weight. With the front squat you have less room for error like that. If you do, you'll lose the bar off the front. It will also allow him to keep squatting and give his back some rest, hopefully allowing it to recovery healthily. The front squat is a great tool to teach form with. However, we all probably agree that to only do front squats is not what is being said.
    I disagree that front squats will teach better form for your back squats. Front squats have different mechanical advantages and disadvantages. Back squats are an exercise that focuses on hip extension (low back squats anyway).

    If someone develops a strong front squat they will have the quads, but not the stabilizer maturity to develop significant carryover into the back squat anyway.

    His best bet is doing bodyweight squats, focusing on shoving his knees out and reading a few tips from starting strength and watching Rippetoe demonstration videos.

    The way you described the squat is how a proper low bar squat is performed.

    We're in agreement that the problem is form. And I am not against incorporating front squats, just not replacing back squats for front squats.
    Former Marine, UT-BSN, NSCA-CPT, NASM-CPT, CSCS
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    I have bought and read Mark's book. I am aware of what is written in his book. And no it's not "plagiarism" to post something when you can't provide a link.
    It is when you do not use quotation marks showing that it came from someone else. I actually talk to Mark...so are the words that are going to come out of his mouth not good enough for you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastRonin View Post
    It is when you do not use quotation marks showing that it came from someone else. I actually talk to Mark...so are the words that are going to come out of his mouth not good enough for you?
    What "words" are you talking about? You're going to tell him someone doesn't think front squats are a substitution for back squats and you actually think he's going to agree with that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post

    What "words" are you talking about?


    Front squats are quad dominant.

    Rippetoe goes into some detail on the subject on pages 223-230 of the 2nd Edition of starting strength.

    Key points:

    -Hamstrings are already shortened & the positioning of the bar makes it impossible to use hip drive as a cue.
    -The body is kept as vertical as possible, in comparison to the back squat where some amount of forward lean is desired
    -More core stabilization is needed because of the bar positioning
    These words. I am a member of T-nation as well and just reread that thread yesterday and again today because of this lol.

    You're going to tell him someone doesn't think front squats are a substitution for back squats and you actually think he's going to agree with that?
    No where did I disagree with this statement anywhere. That would be stupid to pose a question even a novice could answer. The question posed is "a front squat is harder on a core than the back squat."

    This question is multifaceted.As to the definition of 'harder" in perspective to the exercises themselves. FS IMO are harder in the fact of the weight pulling you forward and the body naturally working against it the whole exercise. While in the BS it is mainly supporting the heavy weight in general that strengthens the core that is from my own experience of doing heavy front and back squats and learning the geometry of the lifts themselves...but we will see what he has to say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastRonin View Post
    These words. I am a member of T-nation as well and just reread that thread yesterday and again today because of this lol.



    No where did I disagree with this statement anywhere. That would be stupid to pose a question even a novice could answer. The question posed is "a front squat is harder on a core than the back squat."

    This question is multifaceted.As to the definition of 'harder" in perspective to the exercises themselves. FS IMO are harder in the fact of the weight pulling you forward and the body naturally working against it the whole exercise. While in the BS it is mainly supporting the heavy weight in general that strengthens the core that is from my own experience of doing heavy front and back squats and learning the geometry of the lifts themselves...but we will see what he has to say.
    What poundage are you comparing between the back squat and front squat? If you are comparing pound for pound a front squat vs. back squat, as in a front squat of 225 vs. a back squat of 225 then the front squat would of course recruit more core, but if you're comparing a 315 back squat with a 135 front squat (or whatever would be balanced between the two) then the back squat would seem to be harder on the core.

    Lets not forget the core itself also consists of the lower back muscles, which contract harder with a back squat because the resistance being placed on the back.

    My suggestion was simply that front squats are not a substitution for back squats and if you're not disagreeing with that then we are arguing over nothing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingk0ng View Post
    What poundage are you comparing between the back squat and front squat? If you are comparing pound for pound a front squat vs. back squat, as in a front squat of 225 vs. a back squat of 225 then the front squat would of course recruit more core, but if you're comparing a 315 back squat with a 135 front squat (or whatever would be balanced between the two) then the back squat would seem to be harder on the core.

    Lets not forget the core itself also consists of the lower back muscles, which contract harder with a back squat because the resistance being placed on the back.

    My suggestion was simply that front squats are not a substitution for back squats and if you're not disagreeing with that then we are arguing over nothing.
    No, I am not disagreeing with that last statement at all haha, and yes I meant using the same weight, using only the exercise as the medium. I also agree with the lower back part and the difference on weight on a trained individual. I think only focusing on one or the other would severely compromise someone.If I had to only do one I would probably do high bar squats as they seem the best of both worlds in functionality. As it stands I do low bar BS and FS. Maybe we all like training legs too much ja?:
  

  
 

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