Your Undertraining

[RenegadeRows]

This is part rant / part story.

Me and my lifting partner happened to break up with our girls at the same time. We spent alot of time together after that. We ate, and trained together. We took our negative energy and turned it into positive motivation for lifting.

We were training at 11am for an hour with heavy squats/deads/bench, then hitting bodyweight crossfit training at 6pm, all the while eating like madmen or laying on the beach inbetween. Sometimes we'd hit it 3 times in a day.

We were doing 100 reps of chinups, 100 reps of dips, and going back two days later in order to beat our timed record of the "magic 200".

Two a days, drop sets, supersets... we were pushing ourselves...working out almost everyday.

-
It was in this time I saw the best gains of my life.

This isn't a boost to my ego, or me trying to brag. It took a blow to my personal life and positive motivation from friends in order to see what I was really capable of.

My guess is there are a majority of people out there who are NOT training as hard as they could be. I see posts like "Don't work out two days in a row", "Bench twice a week?" Come on now. Do you think the pro's got that way from pussyfooting around DOMs and sore muscles?

Pain, sacrifice, sweat and tears.

As long as you sleep 8 hours a day, and get adequate nutrition, there is no reason why you can't do it.

Hell, do it for a month. Push yourself to the absolute maximum. At least then you'll know what your truly capable of before you start to break down.

Overtraining....HAH! Unless your working with extremely high weight or taxing your CNS with some sort of torturous HIT program, your nowhere near overtraining.

This is just a rant of mine, hopefully to light a fire under yours (and mine.) TRAIN HARDER. Do some two a days. Do some crazy bodyweight exercises, make games out of them.

It's not easy to put forth this sort of effort, hell I slack off all the time. But when I find the motivation to really kick my ass, training 5 days a week, eating like a madman... when I'm really "in the zone" is when I see the best gains. This tells me that the harder you work, the better your results will be.

/end rant

 

[pmiller383]

I agree 100%, just about everyone that always says they are overtraining are just under eating. Your body can take a lot, and chances are your mentally going to give out before your body does.

 

[RenegadeRows]

Just look at people in Boot camp. They go hard everyday, it's not the same as lifting weights, no: but take a person who sits on the couch all day and have him pushing dirt... it's the same thing for him. LIFTING - WEIGHT.

 

[fritzer]

hmmmm when i did this long workouts, 2 a days, supersets, dropsets i saw no gain and almost no strength after 3-4months (and yes 8 hours of sleep and more food than ronnie coleman could handle :684: )

when i started doing 1 or 2 sets per exercise, 50min workout, max intensity i saw massive massive gains

i dont disagree with you because everyone is different. but you are explaining lifting more as a lifestyle that keeps you motivated. for me it is more of a mental game, how can you achieve the most results the simplest way. i actually think you can
achieve better results training my way, but that's my opinion

whether it be your way on one extreme or mine on another i agree that it is all mental. if you feel hyped to go twice a day and push yourself then it will work. if i feel psyched pushing all my mental and physical energy into one set it will also work. the question then is time

 

[RenegadeRows]

THat's true Fritzer, everyone is different.

But even at 1-2 sets per exercise, your putting out max intensity. That's very hard for most people to do

 

[fritzer]

true i had to plug up both my nostrils with tissue so blood wouldnt spray out on the wall on squats one time, gross, haha

 

[RenegadeRows]

Now thats what I call training

 

[youngandfree]

Just look at people in Boot camp. They go hard everyday, it's not the same as lifting weights, no: but take a person who sits on the couch all day and have him pushing dirt... it's the same thing for him. LIFTING - WEIGHT.

Especially Hell Week for the SEALS. Nasty stuff, no sleep and no where near the nutrition you can get working a 9-5. The mind is so powerful, most people never put it to its full potential. The mind can push you through things when your body has long given up. We usually think it's the other way around and sell ourselves short.

 

[jdg487]

nice post RR!! so true!

 

[D3vildog]

I have advised people against Bench twice in one week (to at least try not doing it for a period of time to see if it helps them), but i still advise them to work the chest twice in one week. I just think the same lift on a muscle group that has a wide variety of workouts is pointless. Personally when i stopped benching twice in a week i saw better gains than when i did. Hey that's me, I agree with alot you say but i'm just throwing out my reason for why i said it.

 

[jumpshot903]

I Agree 110% RR!! i think people put to much stress into all the splits and what not i judge it by how my body reacts the next day or during the session i may not be going for bodybuilding here just training to be an athlete but if i dont have DOMS i throw away that 5 day split or whatever and i train, i do feel like my best gains are when im pissed at something and i just demolish the weights day in and day out. It certaintly doesnt work for everyone but some it does i honestly hate following a routine like one body part a day it gets boring and i dont feel like i get much out of it but hey everyones different.

 

[RenegadeRows]

I Agree 110% RR!! i think people put to much stress into all the splits and what not i judge it by how my body reacts the next day or during the session i may not be going for bodybuilding here just training to be an athlete but if i dont have DOMS i throw away that 5 day split or whatever and i train, i do feel like my best gains are when im pissed at something and i just demolish the weights day in and day out. It certaintly doesnt work for everyone but some it does i honestly hate following a routine like one body part a day it gets boring and i dont feel like i get much out of it but hey everyones different.

exactly!

 

[brownstown89]

yea dude ur right i tried to bring up this point in a different thread... as long as ur eating and sleeping and good splits u will be fine... now no matter how much u eat u cant go bench 5 x a week. but if ur split is good u can handle it.

 

[RenegadeRows]

It's an easy method if you think about it:

1. Break down a muscle via exercise
2. Rest and eat, so said muscle heals
3. Repeat with more weight, reps or intensity.

 

[jcp2]

These threads are extremely generalized. I am about a 450 drug free bencher and i cannot lift continuously at weights over 385 without beginning to overtrain after about 6-8 weeks. It could be one set or 3 it does not matter. Deadlifting, i am around a 650 deadlifter and i only do one working set of between 3-5 reps every week. That is all i can handle and even begins to be too much when i am squatting every week as well.

Now a 23 year old who weighs 185 can most likely handle higer percentages for longer periods of time, as it is just easier for them to recover from a bench workout that is only 200lbs. Same as a deadlift or squats. It would even be harder form someone who benches 600 lbs to recover from workouts. This is why you only reallly see kids doing forced reps, if anyone i train with did this it would be suicide for their progress.

I think most of the time when i see people say they others are overtraining, it is more that they are wasting their time doing 25 sets of chest etc. You cannot make progress if you are using so little intensity that you could even complete that.

One of my problems on this board is thier is a lot of parroting, and not alot of under the bar training experience. I don't know tons about traning, but i try and give advice from what has helped me in the past. I can give advice on what it took to bench 400, 450 etc. and pull in the 600's. I can also say that i have gotten bigger as i have gotten stronger over the years, and that bodybuilding splits for me have been garbage.

 

[SRS2000]

These threads are extremely generalized. I am about a 450 drug free bencher and i cannot lift continuously at weights over 385 without beginning to overtrain after about 6-8 weeks. It could be one set or 3 it does not matter. Deadlifting, i am around a 650 deadlifter and i only do one working set of between 3-5 reps every week. That is all i can handle and even begins to be too much when i am squatting every week as well.

Now a 23 year old who weighs 185 can most likely handle higer percentages for longer periods of time, as it is just easier for them to recover from a bench workout that is only 200lbs. Same as a deadlift or squats. It would even be harder form someone who benches 600 lbs to recover from workouts. This is why you only reallly see kids doing forced reps, if anyone i train with did this it would be suicide for their progress.

I think most of the time when i see people say they others are overtraining, it is more that they are wasting their time doing 25 sets of chest etc. You cannot make progress if you are using so little intensity that you could even complete that.

One of my problems on this board is thier is a lot of parroting, and not alot of under the bar training experience. I don't know tons about traning, but i try and give advice from what has helped me in the past. I can give advice on what it took to bench 400, 450 etc. and pull in the 600's. I can also say that i have gotten bigger as i have gotten stronger over the years, and that bodybuilding splits for me have been garbage.

Excellent post. I've observed the same things in my own training, but also by observing many very strong people in the world of powerlifting, strongman, and bodybuilding. The more time you spend under the bar, the better you can figure out when to push hard and when to back off. Very, very few people can go balls out every week when they are handling truly big weights. I've also had no luck with bodybuilding splits.

 

[DEADn]

training hard comes in 2 forms. You can train for over and hour and do many exercises with lots of reps or you can train for a short amount of time with heavy weights and short reps and probably still come out the same. You will puff up more with higher reps but it is more like air in a balloon. It eventually goes away if you don't keep at it. Or you can train heavier and shorter and eat good and your strength will cause you body to size up. You won't lose much if you take a break. I learned this in going from pyramiding to rest paused training. I don't have to stay in my gym for over an hour. Just do my stuff and get out of there and then eat. I have found that I don't lose so much muscle in rest paused training.

 

[fritzer]

for all the guys in the thread saying how they love two a days etc. i just wish you would try going from 5 sets to 3 sets to 2 sets and eventually strictly 1-2 sets per exercise. i know how you are saying just go train and eat and push yourself. but there is nothing in the world like going all out, every little thing you got on a set.

 

[RenegadeRows]

Yes when dealing with higher #'s overtraining is more likely, as I outlined in my post.

 

[fritzer]

yeah but i still wished you guys would try it

 

[RenegadeRows]

Right now I'm doing a full body workout, compound exercises, 1-2 sets per bodypart, almost 6 days a week, combined with cardio, boxing, and yoga.



Looking something like this:

4am : Yoga / Tai chi

12pm:
Hindu squats: 1 set warmup
Deadlifts: 2x5
Bench press: 2x5
BB Rows: 2x5
Hang Clean and press: 2x5
Chinups: 50 reps (usually 3 sets)
Dips: 50 reps (usually 2 sets)
1 set of various ab work
2pm: 2 hour nap
5pm: 15 minutes bag work, 15 bike

I keep the volume and intensity low, and workout almost everyday with 1 week break every 40 days. It's my "summer routine." In the winter time (bulk) I usually use some sort of push/pull/legs split with lots of volume.

 

[GoHardOrGoHme]

Just to add my two cents b/c this is a subject that i constantly encounter in the gym.

When i started lifting 4 years back i would lift for 30 minutes and feel like a got a hell of a work out.

After a year i was hitting the hour mark and had to cut my work out short b/c of fear of going over an hour would lead to muscle loss or overtraining.

As of the past 2 years i walk in the gym and train on average between 2-3 hours straight. I just kinda lose track and by the time i am either through the routine or too tired to keep lifting its been 3 hours. Even if I reduce the rest to a 1 to 2 minutes between all sets and still barely squeeze out a full routine in an hour and a half.

The past two years have also been by best years as far as gaining size and muscle. I started lifting 4yrs ago weighing in the high 150's at 9-10% BF and now i currently sit at 190 at 10-11% BF trying to drop down to 8 %.

So in my opinion...overtraining...is relative to the individual but in general a lame excuse for not hitting that extra set or adding on an extra 5 lbs.

But the only way to find out if your overtraining or if you just pushing yourself to the next level is to literally push yourself beyond what you think ur capable of. The fear of over training seems to hold so many ppl back from reaching their full potential. When you have reached your limit, your body will let you know. But this limit can be pushed and you can build up to a new limit with time, it just depends how much blood, sweat and guts your willing to spill to reach it.

Now for seasoned lifters like JCP2 that know their body, can design a work out plan that for most part may not wont work for someone else but will allow him to maximize his gains. But please correct me if im wrong, that knowledge came with many years of testing your body and learning what works and what doesnt.

 

[jdg487]

Right now I'm doing a full body workout, compound exercises, 1-2 sets per bodypart, almost 6 days a week, combined with cardio, boxing, and yoga.



Looking something like this:

4am : Yoga / Tai chi

12pm:
Hindu squats: 1 set warmup
Deadlifts: 2x5
Bench press: 2x5
BB Rows: 2x5
Hang Clean and press: 2x5
Chinups: 50 reps (usually 3 sets)
Dips: 50 reps (usually 2 sets)
1 set of various ab work
2pm: 2 hour nap
5pm: 15 minutes bag work, 15 bike

I keep the volume and intensity low, and workout almost everyday with 1 week break every 40 days. It's my "summer routine." In the winter time (bulk) I usually use some sort of push/pull/legs split with lots of volume.

that looks so bada$$, I wish I could try something soon - and you just eat a ton everyday? And how often do you switch up the exercises?

 

[Mulletsoldier]

For my two cents [for what it is worth] I think there are various ways to stimulate your body's growth process; these ways are also going to be different, depending on what you consider growth to be. We have to remember that, generally, an individual like jcp, and an individual like RR, are speaking about qualitatively different types of hypertrophy - and in that sense, they are both perfectly valid and correct in their assertions. In my view, a mixed-bag of training, so to speak, is most adequate as it will stimulate each kind of intricately related hypertrophy.

For example, this was my first leg workout back from a calf ripped off the bone [so excuse the paltry weights for now]:

High-Bar OLY Squats:

3 x warm-up
3 x 275 x 3

DEEP Front-Squats [ass literally touches the ground]:

3 x 135 x 15

Widowmaker Leg Press:

Start with 8 plates per side, and go to positive failure, only taking one plate off at a time. By one plate, I mean one plate on the right - go to failure, then; one plate off the left, and so on.

Leg Extension/Lying Ham Curl/GHR Superset

3 x 15/15/5, respectively.

With this workout, and every workout, I begin by activating the deep fibers, and focusing on heavy weights - towards the end, it becomes more of a shock-and-awe tactic: high reps with slow rep cadences [3:2:2] meant to produce a considerable amount of muscle confusion. Though, as jcp mentioned, this style becomes more difficult with increasing weights: prior to my injury, for example, I was squatting approximately 405, and therefore my squat-based workouts were less voluminous. At either end of the spectrum, though, and as dead mentioned, it is a function of intensity: lifting to the higher end of your proportionate 'n' rep max, for any given lift and number of reps!

I think the take home message should be this: intensity can be channeled through various rep and frequency schemata, but its presence in any regime is necessary - both as a training mentality, as well as an actual quantitative measure of lifting ['n' % of 'X rep max'].

 

[RenegadeRows]

that looks so bada$$, I wish I could try something soon - and you just eat a ton everyday? And how often do you switch up the exercises?

Yes I do eat alot and I'm actually maintaining weight. For the summer time, this is good. I don't change the exercises, I just add weight. But I cycle every 40 days to a different routine.

 

[RenegadeRows]

For my two cents [for what it is worth] I think there are various ways to stimulate your body's growth process; these ways are also going to be different, depending on what you consider growth to be. We have to remember that, generally, an individual like jcp, and an individual like RR, are speaking about qualitatively different types of hypertrophy - and in that sense, they are both perfectly valid and correct in their assertions. In my view, a mixed-bag of training, so to speak, is most adequate as it will stimulate each kind of intricately related hypertrophy.

For example, this was my first leg workout back from a calf ripped off the bone [so excuse the paltry weights for now]:

High-Bar OLY Squats:

3 x warm-up
3 x 275 x 3

DEEP Front-Squats [ass literally touches the ground]:

3 x 135 x 15

Widowmaker Leg Press:

Start with 8 plates per side, and go to positive failure, only taking one plate off at a time. By one plate, I mean one plate on the right - go to failure, then; one plate off the left, and so on.

Leg Extension/Lying Ham Curl/GHR Superset

3 x 15/15/5, respectively.

With this workout, and every workout, I begin by activating the deep fibers, and focusing on heavy weights - towards the end, it becomes more of a shock-and-awe tactic: high reps with slow rep cadences [3:2:2] meant to produce a considerable amount of muscle confusion. Though, as jcp mentioned, this style becomes more difficult with increasing weights: prior to my injury, for example, I was squatting approximately 405, and therefore my squat-based workouts were less voluminous. At either end of the spectrum, though, and as dead mentioned, it is a function of intensity: lifting to the higher end of your proportionate 'n' rep max, for any given lift and number of reps!

I think the take home message should be this: intensity can be channeled through various rep and frequency schemata, but its presence in any regime is necessary - both as a training mentality, as well as an actual quantitative measure of lifting ['n' % of 'X rep max'].

Knowledgable addition from a wise member

 

[loftus44]

what is a good number of exercises for each body part? For instance if I do 3 chest movements ill probly do four sets each, if I do 5 exercises Id do 2-3 sets each. I always change the amount of working sets vs. lighter weight extra focus on form and squeeze(sorry didnt know how to word that). Should I keep it the same style for a month or two or keep changing it up every 2 weeks or so? Also how much should you stick with the same exercise before changing it? Sometimes I catch myself changing it every week.

 

[TexasLifter89]

man I have tried all these formatted routines ,etc, BUT where I truly grow the most, become sore, and really get my strength shot up is to go up there randomly chose a few body parts and just go all out heavy and under 8 reps till I am failure at everything. I know this is not like everyone else, but I found myself getting into the antics too much of trying the months new supplement, using said format workout, and blah blah, but when i truly grow the most is with the basics. It is too too easy to get caught up in everything and totally lose track of what really works.

 

[loftus44]

amen brother, never hurts to go old school!