EC or ECA?
- 06-24-2008, 02:55 AM
- 06-24-2008, 03:41 AM
Originally Posted by Urban Monk;
The main idea is to initiate and prolong thermogenesis. Ephedrine (a sympathetic nervous system stimulator) triggers the release of noradrenaline/norepinephrine, the body's primary endogenous thermogenic hormone. However, the release of norepinephrine is inhibited by prostaglandins (inflammatory hormone-like substances derived from arachidonic-acid/cyclooxygenase metabolism) and adenosine. Without adequate norepinephrine production, thermogenesis will be compromised. Now comes caffeine. A central nervous system stimulant, caffeine inhibits adenosine and phosphodiesterase (PDE), leading to enhanced and prolonged thermogenesis. And aspirin? Caffeine takes care of adenosine and PDE, but the prostaglandin channel is still open. So, aspirin contributes centrally to the ECA stack by inhibiting prostaglandin production, thus supporting enhanced and prolonged thermogenesis. As an aside, aspirin may also deplete hepatic (liver) glutathione levels. So aspirin users may consider taking liver-supporting supplements.
Net, the synergistic action of ECA ensures significant norepinephrine receptor-stimulation activity, and therefore, effective thermogenesis. So, prefer ECA to EC.
- 06-24-2008, 07:14 AM
great post sm...
I have read all of that before but wonder... at what cost do you get the additional fat loss?
As we have seen from the success of AA which is based on muscle inflamatory response (among other mechanisms), the muscles ability to inflame and repair after a workout is important. In a cut phase we need to focuss on muscle retention and I worry that this addition might make that even harder...
Obviously there is no specific study to quantify this (and it there is enjoy pub-med alone ha, not my thing). But just like everything its a balancing act. I've just played it safe and added other things to the mix (green tea, colleus, cayeene ect.) Haven't done old school ECA in some time... Maybe towards the end of this cut when the stuborn fat is a problem...
06-24-2008, 07:20 AM
06-24-2008, 07:24 AM
Generally agree. My post was not a recommendation for an ECA stack per se. It has its good and bad sides. I tried to answer the question regarding whether or not aspirin was necessary in such a stack.Originally Posted by justreading;
The arachidonic-acid (AA) pathway to muscle growth is, as you pointed out, based on inflammation. Strictly speaking, inflammation is an important part of growth. Muscles grow after they recover from the stress of inflammation (wear and tear) during exercise. The ECA stack aims at fat loss, while AA focuses on lean-mass growth. Personally, I prefer other fat-loss stacks to ECA.
06-24-2008, 09:51 AM
No aspirin for me. I've only taken it once or twice but it gives me gut rot.
06-24-2008, 11:01 AM
06-24-2008, 12:01 PM
Low-dose aspirin?Originally Posted by lector606;
06-24-2008, 02:58 PM
Can you give your optimal dosing of ECA in amounts and duration?
Also in what capacity is it best? Pre-Cardio or Pre-Workout, or some other time?
Finally, what other supps would you combine with it (i.e. liver supporting, etc or other thermos, etc).
06-25-2008, 03:22 AM
We should, however, not forget that the ECA stack is strongly thermogenic. This means it may cause heat stroke in some users during hot climatic conditions as may be the case in summer. It may also cause dizziness, jitters, heart arrhythmia, or insomnia in some users, especially those (hyper)sensitive to caffeine and ephedrine. So, users with heart problems, high-blood pressure, liver or bleeding disorders, should consult their doctors before starting the stack. Something else: The stack is not appropriate for recovering addicts, as it may reactivate the addiction.
1) N-Acetyl-Cysteine (NAC) boosts cellular production of glutathione and protects the liver from damaging compounds. Glutathione, on its own, is a potent antioxidant and liver protector. The problem, though, is that glutathione is best supplemented indirectly, as it has a low bioavailability when ingested directly. When you supplement with NAC (600mg/day is usually recommended), be sure to take at least twice as much Vitamin C simultaneously. This ensures that NAC does not oxidize. It is also useful to add Alpha Lipoic Acid (ALA) to this blend. ALA also helps boost glutathione levels and helps potentiate the effects of vitamins C and E.
Consider broad spectrum Vitamin E (alpha- and gamma-tocepherols and tocotrienols).
2) The compound S-adenosylmethionine (SAMe) is required in the synthesis of glutathione and is a potent liver protector.
3) Silymarin Extract (from milk thistle ). This compound also raises glutathione levels and is a potent liver protector. Note that the most active flavonoid in silymarin is silibinin, so this is the compound that counts. Depending on the silibinin content of your milk-thistle product, you might consider about 700mg of silymarin daily.
4) Choline provides support in reducing fat storage in the liver. Some recommend up to 2gr daily.
5) BCAAs promote hepatic protein synthesis.
To summarize, the key in liver support and protection is to raise cellular/hepatic glutathione levels. This may be best achieved by a combination of compounds.