[futurepilot]

Caffeine is a commonly used in conjunction with fitness programs. Many weight loss supplements come loaded with caffeine. Additionally, athletes often use caffeine during training for its stimulatory effects. Ironically, chronic caffeine use will also lessen the boost in strength you receive from creatine. One recent study has shown that extended caffeine use COMPLETEY ABOLISHES the physical benefits typically afforded by creatine use (ref. 1). By contrast, a single dose of caffeine immediately before exercise either has no effect (ref. 2), or even enhances the improvement in strength observed with creatine (ref. 3). Therefore, at least as far as creatine is concerned, chronic caffeine consumption appears to be much more counterproductive than an occasional cup of coffee.

This result initially came as a complete surprise to the scientists conducting the research. They had originally expected caffeine to ENHANCE creatine's benefits since caffeine should create a more permissive environment for creatine transport into muscle. In fact, creatine is transported into skeletal muscle equally well with, or without, caffeine. The most likely hypothesis, therefore, is that caffeine is exerting its inhibitory effect directly on the contractile machinery of muscle.

Certain wrong explanations, however, can be discounted from the start. First, the fact that caffeine is a diuretic has nothing to do with its counterproductive effect. Diuretics increase the amount of fluid that is excreted from the body in the urine. By apparent contrast, ingesting creatine monohydrate powder causes our muscles to retain more fluids thereby reducing urine production. These opposing effects of caffeine and creatine have inspired rumors that caffeine counteracts the benefits of creatine by preventing muscles from retaining fluids.

Making this mental link is erroneous and assumes that water retention by skeletal muscle, otherwise known as muscle volumizing, is the source of creatine's physical benefit. Although increasing the girth of our muscles, muscle volumizing has no proven effect on strength. In other words, size alone isn't the basis for strength, rather augmented energy stores (ATP and PCr) and increased contractile proteins (increased protein synthesis) are the true source of strength. Our muscles get bigger when we train because the amount of proteins they contain increases. Blood flow to our muscle also increases causing them to swell. With reference to training, therefore, size and strength do go hand in hand. On the other hand, inflating our muscles with water without the benefit of these other biochemical processes accomplishes very little, athletically speaking.

A more feasible explanation is that caffeine interferes with the contractile properties of muscle.

Would it surprise you that relaxation and power are one in the same? In truth, strength is the outcome of the coordinated interplay between muscle contraction and relaxation. For example, when performing a biceps curl the triceps must relax at the same time as the biceps contract for the bar to rise. If both muscle groups remain contracted (or relaxed) the bar goes absolutely nowhere! In other words, without the coordinated relaxation of antagonistic muscle groups there is no power. On a mechanistic level it is the presence of calcium that triggers contraction. Calcium must therefore be stingily hidden away into special storage compartments when muscle relaxation is required and only released from these intramuscular storage sites when contraction is desired.



It is thus relevant that one of PCr's primary roles in muscle is to provide the energy to return calcium into these reservoirs. In this manner creatine (PCr) assists in muscle relaxation and enhances our athletic performance. Interestingly, caffeine has the opposite effect of allowing calcium to escape from these intracellular calcium storage sites. Caffeine would thus hamper muscle relaxation. In agreement with these findings a recent study has shown that caffeine interferes with creatine's ability to facilitate muscle relaxation, especially during moments of fatigue (ref. 2). Caffeine might thusly confound the ability of PCr to store away calcium and in doing so nullify part of creatine's benefit.



Take Home

If you're serious about getting the most from creatine, avoid chronic use of caffeine. Scientific studies show that the equivalent of three cups of coffee per day for as little as three days is sufficient to completely negate the benefits typically afforded by creatine (ref. 1). On the other hand, an occasional cup of coffee doesn't seem to render much harm (refs. 2, 3).




Scientific References:

1. Vandenberghe K, Gillis N, Van Leemputte M, Van Hecke P, Vanstapel F, Hespel P. (1996) Caffeine counteracts the ergogenic action of muscle creatine loading. Journal of Applied Physiolgy Volume 80(2), pages 452-457

2. Hespel P, Op't Eijnde B, Van Leemputte M. (2002) Opposite actions of caffeine and creatine on muscle relaxation time in humans. Journal of Applied Physiology Volume 92, pages 513-518

3. Doherty M, Smith PM, Davison RC, Hughes MG. (2002) Caffeine is ergogenic after supplementation of oral creatine monohydrate. Med Sci Sports Exerc Volume 34, pages 1785-1792

[ongoingsaga]

These studies are from 1996 and 2002.

In the first paragraph... "One recent study has shown". One study? You can find countless articles and advertisements for countless products stating "a study has shown"... without noting that "4 bajillion studies have shown the opposite".

As far as caffeine being considered a diuretic, that's old news that's been shown to be incorrect. Studies at UConn and Univ of Illinois (as well as many others... do a google search on "caffeine diuretic") show that caffeine is not a diuretic and does not increase the chances of dehydration.

Caffeine increases blood flow in the kidneys and affects the reabsorption capacity of salt and water. This is known as diuresis (and why caffeine is referred to as a diuretic). Some research claims it also relaxes the bladder's detrusor muscles, thus enabling easier urine flow.
Recent research has claimed that caffeine is not as diuretic as previously thought, in fact not much more than water (which also has a slight diuretic effect).

Not trying to start a flame... just noting a few points for accuracy.

[futurepilot]

Originally Posted by ongoingsaga

"4 bajillion studies have shown the opposite".

Can you post a link to just a few, only peer reviewed scientific journals, i dont want some supplement companys write up.

I have been researching the efficacy of caffeine/creatine supplementation recently and would love to see any info you have on the subject.

[ongoingsaga]

Like I said, I'm not trying to start a flame or any arguments. Just trying to post some other info...

Info strictly on caffeine:

http://advance.uconn.edu/2002/020722/02072207.htm

http://www.mckinley.uiuc.edu/handouts/caffeine.html

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/AnS/psycho...ine_sports.htm

http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/caffeine.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/04/he...on/04real.html


Just from what I have read, you are correct in your first paragraph about moderate vs. chronic caffeine consumption and creatine. It seems that moderate use of caffeine generally has no effect or a positive effect while chronic use can have a negative effect.
But... the grey area is trying to define the line between moderate and chronic. That line is going to be different for everyone based on genetics, body composition, previous exposure to caffeine, etc.

The negative effects of caffeine (when considering caffeine and creatine together) concern muscle RT (relaxation time). It appears that caffeine and creatine have opposite effects which negate one another concerning RT.

If muscle RT was the only reason you were taking creatine and/or caffeine, I can see how that would be a problem. However, RT is not the only reason many people take creatine and caffeine. There are many other pros (and cons) concerning each of those.

I would be interested to see if there is any more information comparing other positive and negative aspects of caffeine and creatine to see if they really shouldn't be used together.

For example, in an ECA stack, one of the properties of caffeine is that it is a vaso-constrictor. But that's not the main property you are going for when using caffeine in that stack.
I also add Arginine whose main property is that of a vaso-dialator. Based on those two tidbits, it seems counter productive to use caffeine and arginine. But, the basic dialation properties of arginine are much stronger than the constriction properties of caffeine (yes, you can change that with lop-sided dosages).
So, while you may not get the maximum dialation benefit from the arginine while using caffeine, you are still getting some vaso-dialation while still getting the main effect from the caffeine in the ECA stack.

I'm trying to pretend to do some work while writing this, so I hope it didn't come across too convoluted.

[futurepilot]

Ya like you said those were just articles on caffeine.

Heres a few more articles on creatine/caffeine together like this thread is about.

FOOD:
The following food:
Caffeine or caffeine-containing foods
HARMFUL EFFECT:

Taking CREATINE and CAFFEINE together may cause CREATINE to not work very well or not work at all.
2. Vandenberghe K, Van Leemputte M et al: Caffeine counteracts the ergogenic action of muscle creatine loading. J Appl Physiol 1996; 80(2):452-457.

Many weight loss supplements come packed with caffeine, and a lot of atheletes use it during training to stimulate themselves. Although chronic caffeiene use will lessthen the boost in strength you receive from your creatine supplement.

Studies have shown that extended caffeine use completely destroys the physical benefits typically afforded by creatine use. By contrast, a single dose of caffeine immediately before exercise either has no effect or even enhances the improvement in strength observed with creatine. Therefore, at least as far as creatine is concerned, chronic caffeine consumption appears to be much more counterproductive than an occasional cup of coffee.

If you are serious about getting the most from your creatine supplement, try to avoid use of caffeine. Studies show that the equivalent of three cups of coffee per day(300mgs) for as little as three days is sufficient to completely negate the benefits of creatine in your system. Although an occasional cup of coffee doesn’t seem to do much harm.

Back in 1996, researchers from Katholieke Universiteit Leuven in Belgium showed that caffeine interferes with some of the performance-enhancing effects of creatine.

They supplemented a group of nine healthy male volunteers for six days with creatine, creatine and caffeine, or a placebo.

Creatine increased muscular performance by 10-23%. However, when creatine was combined with caffeine, the caffeine appeared to "block" the performance-enhancing effects of creatine.

Creatine and caffeine taken together both raised creatine levels in the muscle to the same extent as creatine alone. But it was only the latter treatment that improved performance.
[Christian Finn's Research Update | Issue 165, 1 Aug 2004]


Try to avoid taking high amounts of Caffeine with Creatine. Simultaneous supplementation of large amounts of Caffeine (5 mg per kg body weight per day) eliminates the ergogenic effects of Creatine by interfering with the resynthesis of Phosphocreatine. Lower amounts of Caffeine (e.g. 1-2 cups of Coffee) seem not to influence the efficacy of Creatine.
1) The American College of Sports Medicine Roundtable on physiological and health effects of oral creatine supplementation. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 2000, 32, 706-717; M.H. Williams, R.B. Kreider, J.D. Branch, Creatine – The Power Supplement Human Kinetics, Champaign, IL, 1999. ISBN 0-7360-0162-X

All im trying to do is provide some info. basically as i understand it if you stay under 300mgs a day you should be fine. The problem I was trying to point out is that theres like 300mgs per scoop of the average NO supp, that contains creatine, like NO Xplode.

[ongoingsaga]

OK cool. Now you're getting into actual numbers.
Now I'm curious if timing would have any affect.
That is if you had caffeine then an hour later had creatine how much difference would it make than if you took the two at the same time?
Your last study says "when creatine was combined with caffeine, the caffeine seemed to 'block'..." and also says "creatine and caffeine taken together..." and later says "try to avoid taking high amounts of caffeine with creatine. Simultaneous supplementation..."
But the article you quoted also says "as little as 3 cups a day for 3 days is sufficient to completely negate the benefits of the creatine in your system."
A couple of places in your post say don't take them together, but another part indicates prolonged use of caffeine negates the effects.... unless I am misreading something.
Are they trying to say that 3 cups of coffee contain enough caffeine to not only stay in your system all day, but to also negate the effects of all the creatine in your system? That seems a little hard to believe, doesn't it?
I would like to see if anyone has done any testing measuring the effects of creatine when caffeine is introduced an hour before the creatine, at the same time, and an hour later.
I know that some things like calcium can interfere with the absorption of certain drugs like synthroid (synthetic T3). That's why it is advised that if you are on synthroid, you either take it in the morning and your multivitamin at night, or you take the synthroid and wait an hour before taking your multivitamin.

With the caffeine/creatine combo, I'm wondering if the timing makes any difference in the efficacy of either product, specifically the creatine.

Please don't misunderstand. I'm not trying to argue just for the sake of it. I'm trying to learn something here. You presented a point that caught my attention. I had read some info that perhaps you had not seen or considered. I thought I would bring that to light. You responded with some very good info that made me wonder about something else.

I'm not married to either opinion, and I don't have stock in a creatine company or a coffee company, so I don't care whether caffeine is proven to negate the effects of creatine... or if it doesn't matter... or if someone else shows that they boost each others effects. I'm just interested to see how this unfolds.
I do know that I take my ephedra and aspirin with my morning cup of coffee... then after I wake up a bit, I drink part of my creatine/arginine drink... then I fill it back up and head off to the gym... I drink the drink throughout my workout... then I slam a new-whey 42 gram protein drink (actually it just a mouthful in a tube). During the workouts, I am mentally awake and pumped up and physically I get some pretty massive pumps and get that "damn, I'm feelin' swole" feeling as whatever body part I'm working starts to whisper to me, "yes, but I'm getting tired." (I try to ignore that whisper, by the way!).
I'm hoping that the timing of my supplementation is working the way I want it to... trying to maximize the benefits of each supplement with little interference from others.
I could be wrong though. I mean, I was wrong back in the 80's sometime... once.... but that was about a girl... er stalker...

[Dalamara]

Well my own personal experience with running 50-75mg of Ephedrine with 400-600mg of Caffeine a day for 5 weeks now... and I have seen nothing that would suggest that my creatine is any less effective.

[BigNutz]

Ive been taking creatine and caffienne chronically for a while now and notice a big improvement when I cycle on creatine again after coming off of it for 6 weeks or so.

[futurepilot]

Originally Posted by Dalamara

Well my own personal experience with running 50-75mg of Ephedrine with 400-600mg of Caffeine a day for 5 weeks now... and I have seen nothing that would suggest that my creatine is any less effective.

Ive been taking creatine and caffienne chronically for a while now.

Sounds like some kind of disease...

About the general usefullness of supplements that contain caffeine i myself have had success with certain supplements that have a caffeine/creatine combo.

With that said i have no idea what the benefit was. It could be; consistancy in the gym, more BCAA (as they were NO products with creatine in them), more intense workouts due to placebo, more blood in the muscle bellies do to all of the above..etc..etc.

Therefore we could be unknowingly fooling ourselves into believing that the creatine in our supps are getting to our muscles.

I dont know of any purely caffeine/creatine supps. If anyone can find one that would be cool because im sure there would be annecdotal evidence to support the product.

I merely posted this as a thinker. Something to keep in mind, or find more info about, if you have it.

As of right now i cant find any literature to support that caffeine helps creatine. So unless anyone can find some literature to support taking caffeine and creatine together, im going to go with the above research articles.

But the article you quoted also says "as little as 3 cups a day for 3 days is sufficient to completely negate the benefits of the creatine in your system."

I think they were refering to creatine loading. it was a snippet from a larger article. If that doesnt make sense i dont know that much on the theory of creatine loading, but as far as i understand its supposed to help saturated your muscles, or something to that extent.

As far as spacing caffeine and creatine doses apart? i dont know, all the research i have seen is on the two together.

[Nightwanderer]

Originally Posted by futurepilot

Can you post a link to just a few, only peer reviewed scientific journals, i dont want some supplement companys write up.

I have been researching the efficacy of caffeine/creatine supplementation recently and would love to see any info you have on the subject.

I would think common sense would show creatine & diretics like caffeine have opposite effects, I'd agree with you regardless of
any contradicting reports others may find. Much like marijuana, when it comes to bodybuilding supplements, there's so much contradiction in studies and reports that it makes little difference
what's on paper, when you can just try it for yourself with little risk
and get the truth as it relates to you. I tend not to put much stock in any report that was put out by organizations that would have any special interest in the results.

[Kevf]

This article has some interesting info regarding the info/research from the topicstarter:

Bodybuilding.com - John Berardi - Creatine Combinations: What Works?

I did quite some research a few months ago but couldn't find a uniform answer so I just quit drinking coffee alltogether while on creatine (kinda hard though)

Interesting point: in a lot of (positive!) creatine-studies coffee is used as bevarage to dissolve creatine in!

[ongoingsaga]

Originally Posted by Kevf

Interesting point: in a lot of (positive!) creatine-studies coffee is used as bevarage to dissolve creatine in!

All of the creatine I've ever used has had some type of flavor.... fruit punch (damn, I hate fruit punch)... orange... grape.

adding that to my coffee just sounds nasty !!!

(yes, I realize there's unflavored creatine... just thinking about what I've used!)

might as well add a bit of that metamucil in there too... nothing wrong with a little fiber, eh?

mmmm... coffee, fruit punch flavored creatine, orange flavored metamucil.... heaven.

[Kevf]

sounds gross!

I think it's a usa-thing to have flavoured creatine (looking at the supplementsites). Most of the creatine (monohydraat 90% of the time) is just plain flavourless powder.