11 beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase inhibitors

[comacho]

read many articles on 11beta HSD 1 and 2

and i am confused how some of the supplements work through inhibiting these two enzymes

this is what i have gathered so far:

11beta HSD1 makes cortisol(active) from cortisone (inactive), but can work back wards too,

11beta HSD2 makes cortisone from cortisol, there is very little amoutn of this enzyme but has high affinity for cortisol

GH, through igf1 inhibits 11betaHSD1 but increases 11bHSD2

licorice inhibits both

magnolol inhibits 11betaHSD in kidney and thymus but not liver so your blood cortisol level is not changed, the study did not indicate which type it inhibits, but said that it was different than licorice.

7-oxo-dhea inhibits 11betaHSD1

but now, both 11betaHSD1 and 2 are needed for testes to regulate testosterone output, inhibition of either of those two enzymes showed reduced T level through rise in cortisol.

i am all about keeping T level high, so these supplements that contain one or more of those compounds are they really ok for T? I would love to see some blood work done by people using targex/napalm and relora/retain2 and such products.

ive used 7oxo DHEA and i know it works well for reducing visceral fat, seen it myself but not sure if its okay in reality?

 

[MattMiller]

interesting, never heard anything about this. would love to hear some input on this since im about to use retain 2 in my pct

 

[comacho]

hey Matt,

do you have insurance? would you like to volunteer for a blood work ? LOL

there will be no way of knowing it without some sort of blood work.

maybe inhibition only looks bad in vitro but in not vivo, humans may not be affected by it much in terms of T suppression?

 

[Guest]

read many articles on 11beta HSD 1 and 2

and i am confused how some of the supplements work through inhibiting these two enzymes

this is what i have gathered so far:

11beta HSD1 makes cortisol(active) from cortisone (inactive), but can work back wards too,

11beta HSD2 makes cortisone from cortisol, there is very little amoutn of this enzyme but has high affinity for cortisol

GH, through igf1 inhibits 11betaHSD1 but increases 11bHSD2

licorice inhibits both

magnolol inhibits 11betaHSD in kidney and thymus but not liver so your blood cortisol level is not changed, the study did not indicate which type it inhibits, but said that it was different than licorice.

7-oxo-dhea inhibits 11betaHSD1

but now, both 11betaHSD1 and 2 are needed for testes to regulate testosterone output, inhibition of either of those two enzymes showed reduced T level through rise in cortisol.

i am all about keeping T level high, so these supplements that contain one or more of those compounds are they really ok for T? I would love to see some blood work done by people using targex/napalm and relora/retain2 and such products.

ive used 7oxo DHEA and i know it works well for reducing visceral fat, seen it myself but not sure if its okay in reality?

All I know is that this product has a potent and specific inhibitor(non hormonal).

 

[MattMiller]

hey Matt,

do you have insurance? would you like to volunteer for a blood work ? LOL

there will be no way of knowing it without some sort of blood work.

maybe inhibition only looks bad in vitro but in not vivo, humans may not be affected by it much in terms of T suppression?

yes i have insurance and i will be getting blood work pre cycle (results should be coming in the next few days) and post cycle. however im not sure how much the blood work will benefit you since i will have so much crap running through my body it will be hard to tell if it is the retain causing the test suppression.

 

[comacho]

LOL true Matt,

how about this though,

if you run precycle and post cycle results and your numbers come back great, then i will follow your post cycle regimen from now on,

either way it will be beneficial for all to see the blood work of someone who is on PCT. Not many people do this.

hope to see you post here or see your own thread when the time comes, happy growing with your cycle.

 

[Ziquor]

I wonder about this too. I'll be using Retain2 for cortisol control but I've been highly interested in the 11-Oxo / 11b-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type I reductase formulations. Any experiences with these "11-" cort controllers, and how do they compare to the 17b-triol 's?

 

[MattMiller]

no experience with 11 oxo but i to have heard good things about it. i'm sure someone on here has used it though and they will post something up. as far as blood work goes ill be posting pre cycle levels when they come in, i got the blood work done about 2 weeks ago but the doctor has been pretty busy lately and probablly hasnt had much time to send them to me. i had a pool test run so test levels should be a bit more accurate...not so much fun though.

comacho... right now my PCT is as follows unless i decide to change it up or take some things out...i think it may be a bit of overkill right now.

toremifene- 120-3/90-4/60/30/30 (i think this is what i decided on, ill check my numbers when i get home)
6 oxo
drive
retain 2
perfect cycle
hawthorne berry
fish oil
multi vitamin
maybe some aspire 36 if i get libido loss pretty bad

 

[Ziquor]

yes i have insurance and i will be getting blood work pre cycle (results should be coming in the next few days) and post cycle. however im not sure how much the blood work will benefit you since i will have so much crap running through my body it will be hard to tell if it is the retain causing the test suppression.

From Retain? DHEA is supposed to raise test levels, very strange. As for the cort control I may use both Retain plus an 11-O for PCT on my cycle I'm starting this weekend. Study results concerning cort blockers/reducers hasn't been overly abundant. I'd love to see a comparison of the dhea/17b based (retain) vs. 11-oxo based vs. Cissus

 

[MattMiller]

From Retain? DHEA is supposed to raise test levels, very strange. As for the cort control I may use both Retain plus an 11-O for post cycle therapy on my cycle I'm starting this weekend. Study results concerning cort blockers/reducers hasn't been overly abundant. I'd love to see a comparison of the dhea/17b based (retain) vs. 11-oxo based vs. Cissus

this made me think a little bit to, i havent had any time to do some research on this, im just going by information at the beginning of the thread. and i to would like to see a comparison on those...if you find anything please post in here or pm me

 

[MattMiller]

but like comacho said 11betaHSD enzymes 1 and 2 are needed for regulation so if either are inhibited it could cause a drop in test if the study he got this from is correct. this is probablly why retain contains dhea. since most people run a test booster in PCT anyways i really dont see it being cause for much concern. now if you were running retain 2 standalone and you are one that believes dhea does next to nothing then you might worry abit...still assuming the study is correct. i still need to do some research...or maybe one of the more knowledgeable people on this board will pitch in their 2 cents

 

[Ziquor]

but like comacho said 11betaHSD enzymes 1 and 2 are needed for regulation so if either are inhibited it could cause a drop in test if the study he got this from is correct. this is probablly why retain contains dhea. since most people run a test booster in post cycle therapy anyways i really dont see it being cause for much concern. now if you were running retain 2 standalone and you are one that believes dhea does next to nothing then you might worry abit...still assuming the study is correct. i still need to do some research...or maybe one of the more knowledgeable people on this board will pitch in their 2 cents

Interesting point about why maybe Retain contains Dhea. Cort supps really baffle me. I have a really good grasp on a majority of supps & hormones too, but cort supplements never really seem to have had much research & studies on them. I wonder if you could decrease cortisol too much? Sorta like decreasing estrogen too much is bad.

 

[MattMiller]

Interesting point about why maybe Retain contains Dhea. Cort supps really baffle me. I have a really good grasp on a majority of supps & hormones too, but cort supplements never really seem to have had much research & studies on them. I wonder if you could decrease cortisol too much? Sorta like decreasing estrogen too much is bad.

yea thats venturing into the unknown for me. like you said i have never really seen too many studies on anti corts. too little of most things your body has is a bad thing and normally has detrimental effects so i would imagine if your cort levels get extremely low it could have some negative effects. right now this is all speculation until we see some solid evidence. honeslty i wouldnt worry about it unless your planning on running a high dose for an extended period of time. and if you get worried about your cort being to low...take on some extra assignments at work, intense work out for 6 hours a day, dont sleep for a week, spend more time around your wife, and do all of this while laying next to a jack hammer in a construction site haha

 

[EasyEJL]

i'm pondering low dose adrenosterone (11-oxo) transdermally, maybe 250mg/day

 

[comacho]

i had used retain2 but for only briefly during PCT, I had stopped from paranoia.

from reading other's posts, some say anti-cort during PCT made no difference, some say otherwise, but none say it ruined their libido, then again its PCT so its probaly ruined or unnoticeable.

Retain2 has 7-oxo-DHEA in it, not the regular hormonal DHEA, unless they reformulated it.

7-oxo-dhea doesnt have aromatizing hormonal effects but it will inhibit 11bHSD1.

I have used 7-oxo DHEA with good results however that was during my test cycle so i did not notice any difference in T difference (no blood work, just from the feel)

some people stay away from any steroid based product during PCT, from fear of them acting as an exogneous androgen which may hinder the recovery. tahts a total speculation. I am one of those people though.

so more blood works with these supplements we see better idea we will have.

one day there will be a perfect PCT LOL

i hope this doesnt get moved to a pct section...oops.

 

[MattMiller]

i'm pondering low dose adrenosterone (11-oxo) transdermally, maybe 250mg/day

sounds interesting...divided doses or all at once? does someone make a transdermal adrenosterone? or is this more of something you are hoping to get the chance to try?

 

[EasyEJL]

you can buy raw powder, and it will go "in" to Penetrate or DMSO. I'd probably just dose it as 1x a day, in the mornings post workout.

Just not sure even at that dose how suppressive it will be, and i'm only at 1 week into PCT. so I may wait, but not sure if I should wait full normal waiting time.

 

[MattMiller]

i had used retain2 but for only briefly during post cycle therapy, I had stopped from paranoia.

from reading other's posts, some say anti-cort during PCT made no difference, some say otherwise, but none say it ruined their libido, then again its PCT so its probaly ruined or unnoticeable.

Retain2 has 7-oxo-DHEA in it, not the regular hormonal DHEA, unless they reformulated it.

7-oxo-dhea doesnt have aromatizing hormonal effects but it will inhibit 11bHSD1.

I have used 7-oxo DHEA with good results however that was during my test cycle so i did not notice any difference in T difference (no blood work, just from the feel)

some people stay away from any steroid based product during PCT, from fear of them acting as an exogneous androgen which may hinder the recovery. tahts a total speculation. I am one of those people though.

so more blood works with these supplements we see better idea we will have.

one day there will be a perfect PCT LOL

i hope this doesnt get moved to a post cycle therapy section...oops.

good to know...so no aromatizing hormonal effects, inhibits 11betaHSD 1?...so possible drop in test levels? also what are the chances that this could be permanent? and people saying it made no difference could just be from them not knowing what it would have been like without the anti cort.

haha and one day there will be a perfect PCT like you said but it will all come in one pill...thats my new get rich quick scheme

 

[MattMiller]

you can buy raw powder, and it will go "in" to Penetrate or DMSO. I'd probably just dose it as 1x a day, in the mornings post workout.

Just not sure even at that dose how suppressive it will be, and i'm only at 1 week into post cycle therapy. so I may wait, but not sure if I should wait full normal waiting time.

maybe something worth looking at...and it could be suppressive since your looking at 100% absorbtion transdermally

 

[Ziquor]

Wow very interesting info popping up here. I seen many people say to use a DHEA product during PCT so since the Retain isn't 'hormonal' DHEA should I add yet another regular DHEA to my post cycle goodness?

 

[MattMiller]

Wow very interesting info popping up here. I seen many people say to use a DHEA product during post cycle therapy so since the Retain isn't 'hormonal' DHEA should I add yet another regular DHEA to my post cycle goodness?

you could add in some dhea but there are probablly some more effective test boosters out there. i still keep a bottle of dhea sitting around though...it cant hurt

 

[Brian5225]

subbed

 

[Ziquor]

you could add in some dhea but there are probablly some more effective test boosters out there. i still keep a bottle of dhea sitting around though...it cant hurt

I have a natural test booster already lined up in my PCT along with tamoxifen. But I wonder if I should add regular dhea too, if it'd have any benefits. I was under the impression dhea was used in PCT because after a cycle your dhea levels go down?

 

[EasyEJL]

well, dhea is the almost master prohormone (pregnenelone really is). so your body can make most other hormones from dhea as needed. so it gives your body a little extra fuel to use

 

[Eric Potratz]

You don’t want to take DHEA for PCT. We figured this out with the original Dermacrine, which ended up causing major increases in Adione, Adiol, and subsequent decreases in LH and FSH. Exogenous DHEA really is no different than exogenous testosterone.

This is the same case with 7-oxo DHEA (7-keto). Just because it has no androgenic or estrogenic effects doesn’t mean its “non hormonal”. You have to be careful with 7-oxo because it can reduce LH/FHS too, and is something to save for after PCT, or perhaps during a cycle.

-Pp

 

[comacho]

You don’t want to take DHEA for post cycle therapy. We figured this out with the original Dermacrine, which ended up causing major increases in Adione, Adiol, and subsequent decreases in LH and FSH. Exogenous DHEA really is no different than exogenous testosterone.

This is the same case with 7-oxo DHEA (7-keto). Just because it has no androgenic or estrogenic effects doesn’t mean its “non hormonal”. You have to be careful with 7-oxo because it can reduce LH/FHS too, and is something to save for after PCT, or perhaps during a cycle.

-Pp

Pp,

i agree 7-oxo be used during cycle just in case...

but 7-oxo increases LH and decreases steroidogenesis, theres a study from Czech which i posted and WE talked about in PCT section.

old post from bodybuilding.com with P. Arnold said that he thinks since LH is increased and T and E are reduced that means 7-oxo is blocking something in the testes.

in this case 11b HSD1 (from my searching around Pubmed), which is needed and carefully balanced with cortisol and T synthesis.

so we got that figured out, im trying to figure out how badly does it reduce your T and can it be used successfully in PCT. Again many people have used Retain2 or something similar in PCT with no ill effects, sometimes no positive either no difference.

 

[Eric Potratz]

Pp,

i agree 7-oxo be used during cycle just in case...

but 7-oxo increases LH and decreases steroidogenesis, theres a study from Czech which i posted and WE talked about in post cycle therapy section.

old post from bodybuilding.com with P. Arnold said that he thinks since LH is increased and T and E are reduced that means 7-oxo is blocking something in the testes.

in this case 11b HSD1 (from my searching around Pubmed), which is needed and carefully balanced with cortisol and T synthesis.

so we got that figured out, im trying to figure out how badly does it reduce your T and can it be used successfully in PCT. Again many people have used Retain2 or something similar in PCT with no ill effects, sometimes no positive either no difference.

7-oxo lowered LH in the short-term studies performed with topical 7-oxo. (but LH appeared rise up by the end of the treatment.)

11b HSD doesn’t really play a role in T production, so I don’t really see a connection here. But there could be some other enzymes that are being inhibited – ie 3b HSD, 17b HSD, ect

It’s really all speculation though…

-Pp

 

[comacho]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17950991?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8612506?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlusDrugs1

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16188378?ordinalpos=8&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16079965?ordinalpos=11&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

alot more on pubmed, pretty easy to search, im just too lazy to show reference studies next to what i said in my first post, all true.



show me some studies that say 11 beta HSD is NOT involved in steroidogenesis in testes please.

it sounds funny saying taht... testes please testes please

 

[Eric Potratz]

Corticosterone has direct inhibitory effect on the...[Mol Cell Endocrinol. 2007] - PubMed Result

Suppression of endogenous corticosterone levels in...[Endocrinology. 1996] - PubMed Result

Stimulation of testosterone production in rat Leyd...[Mol Cell Endocrinol. 2005] - PubMed Result

Stress hormone and male reproductive function. [Cell Tissue Res. 2005] - PubMed Result

alot more on pubmed, pretty easy to search, im just too lazy to show reference studies next to what i said in my first post, all true.



show me some studies that say 11 beta HSD is NOT involved in steroidogenesis in testes please.

it sounds funny saying taht... testes please testes please

Ok, I assumed we were talking about 7-oxo DHEAs inhibitory mechanism on T production, but if we are talking about cortisols inhibition of T production that’s another story…

We already know that corticosteroids decrease testicular production of testosterone. (thanks for the reffs) While 11b HSD may have an indirect impact on T synthesis, it does not participate in any of the major enzyme reactions for Testosterone synthesis from cholesterol –



The action of 11b HSD on T production is indirect (low amount = low deactivation of cortisol in the testes) –

Comparative aspects of 11 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase. Testicular 11 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase: development of a model for the mediation of Leydig cell function by corticosteroids.
C Monder, MP Hardy, RJ Blanchard, and DC Blanchard
Steroids, February 1, 1994; 59(2): 69-73.

It has been shown that stress or disease-induced increases in plasma corticosterone result in diminished testosterone secretion from the testes. This article reviews investigations from our laboratories that explore the role of 11 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (11 beta-OHSD) in this process. It is proposed that the level of 11 beta-OHSD in Leydig cells dictates the level of intracellular glucocorticoid available to the glucocorticoid receptor and thus the potency of corticosteroid as an inhibitor of testosterone secretion. Stressed and unstressed rats were housed under simulated natural conditions in a Visible Burrow System. Stressed animals showed elevated plasma corticosteroid, lowered plasma testosterone, and diminished testicular 11 beta-OHSD, Immunocytochemical analysis showed that only Leydig cells of the rat testis contain 11 beta-OHSD and glucocorticoid receptors. Half-maximal inhibition of testosterone by Leydig cells required 1.5 nM dexamethasone or 0.4 microM corticosterone. Glycyrrhetinic acid, an inhibitor of 11 beta-OHSD, increased the potency of corticosterone, but did not affect dexamethasone based inhibition. The glucocorticoid receptor blocker, RU 486, prevented inhibition by both corticosterone and dexamethasone. Other classes of steroid were not inhibitors of testosterone biosynthesis. Thus, 11 beta-OHSD oxidizes corticosterone to the inactive metabolite 11-dehydrocorticosterone, relieving steroid-dependent inhibition of Leydig cell function. Lowered enzyme activity increases glucocorticoid dependent inhibition of testosterone production. We conclude that the evidence supports a role of 11 beta-OHSD in testosterone secretion by the testes.

The actual mechanism for how cortisol reduces testosterone secretion is probably by direct destruction of the leydig cell -

Glucocorticoid Induces Apoptosis in Rat Leydig Cells
Hui-Bao Gao, Ming-Han Tong, Yan-Qiang Hu, Qing-Su Guo, Renshan Ge, and Matthew P. Hardy
Endocrinology, Jan 2002; 143: 130.

The aim of the present study was to investigate whether glucocorticoid induces apoptosis in rat Leydig cells. To determine whether there are developmental differences in glucocorticoid sensitivity, Leydig cells were isolated at distinct stages of their differentiation [mesenchymal-like progenitors (PLC), immature Leydig cells (ILC), and adult Leydig cells (ALC)] from 21-, 35-, and 90-d-old Sprague Dawley rats, respectively. Glucocorticoid induction of apoptosis was evaluated after both in vitro and in vivo exposures. In the first set of experiments, PLC, ILC, and ALC were treated with 100 nM corticosterone (CORT) for either 4 or 24 h in vitro and then assessed for labeling with the apoptotic marker annexin V. PLC exposed to CORT had levels of annexin V-fluorescein isothiocyanate labeling that were unchanged relative to control values at both time points (P > 0.05). In contrast, CORT-treated ILC and ALC had increased frequencies of apoptosis: in ALC, a 22.1 ± 1.7% incidence after 4 h and 30.5 ± 2.3% after 24 h compared with 7.4 ± 0.8% in untreated controls (P < 0.05). Similar trends were observed for ILC. Ultrastructural analysis confirmed that the increase in annexin V labeling was associated with characteristic signs of apoptosis, including nuclear fragmentation and formation of apoptotic bodies. A second line of experiments examined whether apoptosis was evident in purified Leydig cells after administration of CORT in vivo. Male rats were subjected to bilateral adrenalectomy and were treated with CORT by ip injection twice daily at doses ranging from 2.5–7.5 mg/100 g BW starting 3 d after surgery. The frequency of Leydig cell apoptosis was measured at 12, 24, 48, and 72 h after the first injection. Administration of the 2.5-mg dose raised circulating CORT 5–10 times above normal basal concentrations, and LH levels sampled at these times were not altered in the treated animals. Increased Leydig cell apoptosis was measurable after 24 h of treatment, with an incidence of 21.1 ± 1.8% in ALC compared with 5.7 ± 0.8% in untreated controls (P < 0.05). Sharp reductions in immunocytochemical staining intensity were observed in the treated animals for a Leydig cell marker, 11ß-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, which occurred concurrently with decreased serum T levels. This was consistent with the hypothesis that CORT-mediated induction of apoptosis leads to declines in Leydig cell numbers, thereby affecting T production. These results suggest that excessive exposure to CORT initiates apoptosis in rat Leydig cells, potentially contributing to suppression of circulating T levels during stress and other conditions in which glucocorticoid concentrations are elevated.

Are we on the same page now?

-Pp

 

[Ziquor]

Ahhhhhhhh!!! So should I use my Retain2 during post cycle therapy or no? I assumed it was mainly just used to lower/control cortisol which shoots up after a hormone cycle. I also plan on taking mega dosed Vitamin-C as it can decrease cortisol somewhat well too, but I don't wanna use just that alone. I even pondered using clenbuterol from what I understand it's the most powerful cortisol reducer there is.

 

[comacho]

Pp,

okay i agree with you what you said here "it does not participate in any of the major enzyme reactions for Testosterone synthesis from cholesterol"

all i was saying was from the study here "We conclude that the evidence supports a role of 11 beta-OHSD in testosterone secretion by the testes."

tricky wordings i guess...

Ziquor, i felt like that during my PCT, i just dropped them and relied on T boosters and my Toremifene. I just didnt want to take any chance. its up to you like i said some people said it worked well and some say it didnt matter during PCT. I havent heard anyone say it ruined their PCT though. I am very interested in Matt's blood work later on.

Pp said try phosphatidylserine for reduced cortisol, i forgot what the dosasge he recommended, what was it again?

I haven't looked up any PS articles as i know i wouldnt spend that much money on it lol

also dont sweat it so much about cortisol control, for years people relied on SERM only to recover, if you lose your gains, it is what it is. I would worry more about getting your nuts back fast and HPTA recovery than losing size,,, well i guess they are inter related.

 

[Eric Potratz]

Pp,

okay i agree with you what you said here "it does not participate in any of the major enzyme reactions for Testosterone synthesis from cholesterol"

all i was saying was from the study here "We conclude that the evidence supports a role of 11 beta-OHSD in testosterone secretion by the testes."

tricky wordings i guess...

Ziquor, i felt like that during my post cycle therapy, i just dropped them and relied on T boosters and my Toremifene. I just didnt want to take any chance. its up to you like i said some people said it worked well and some say it didnt matter during PCT. I havent heard anyone say it ruined their PCT though. I am very interested in Matt's blood work later on.

Pp said try phosphatidylserine for reduced cortisol, i forgot what the dosasge he recommended, what was it again?

I haven't looked up any PS articles as i know i wouldnt spend that much money on it lol

also dont sweat it so much about cortisol control, for years people relied on SERM only to recover, if you lose your gains, it is what it is. I would worry more about getting your nuts back fast and HPTA recovery than losing size,,, well i guess they are inter related.

The dosage for the PS would be 800mg/day. We are releasing "EndoAmp" soon which will be an affordable powdered PS supplement.

-Pp

 

[EasyEJL]

The dosage for the PS would be 800mg/day. We are releasing "EndoAmp" soon which will be an affordable powdered PS supplement.

-Pp

when when when when? the more i've read about it now, the more I wish I could find a way to afford taking a reasonable dose of it To reach 800mg a day of active at the prices for 20% bulk i've seen would be in the $4/day range.

 

[Eric Potratz]

when when when when? the more i've read about it now, the more I wish I could find a way to afford taking a reasonable dose of it To reach 800mg a day of active at the prices for 20% bulk i've seen would be in the $4/day range.

Next week... and a months supply should be less than $50. (800mg/day of actual PS)

-Pp

 

[EasyEJL]

oh, i'll be ordering that for sure!

 

[Ziquor]

I just read a very lengthy article in a medical/medicine magazine in regards to coming off of hormones (pct). A doctor recommends NOT using any type of DHEA or any 7-DHEA, or not use any cortisol blockers at all until the 15th day (beginning of 3rd week) of your PCT due to the supressing effects they can have on natural test levels and HPTA. It explains all the specifics much better & in much more detail than my little summary here but it was convincing enough for me to give it a shot in my upcoming cycle.

 

[comacho]

thanks ziquor for the info

pp, affordable PS sounds great

 

[MattMiller]

I just read a very lengthy article in a medical/medicine magazine in regards to coming off of hormones (post cycle therapy). A doctor recommends NOT using any type of DHEA or any 7-DHEA, or not use any cortisol blockers at all until the 15th day (beginning of 3rd week) of your PCT due to the supressing effects they can have on natural test levels and HPTA. It explains all the specifics much better & in much more detail than my little summary here but it was convincing enough for me to give it a shot in my upcoming cycle.

any chance you can find that article on the internet for us? i would like to read that as well. i would like to start it at the beginning so you guys can see the blood work but then again i dont want to screw something up for researh purposes you know?

 

[comacho]

Mattmiller,

how is your PCT going?

 

[MattMiller]

Mattmiller,

how is your PCT going?

well i didnt start, i decided to hold off on my cycle for a little bit till i actually have money to eat and stuff while im on. as of right now being poor is kicking my a** i will be starting it within the next few months though. i go in for blood work in about a week or so, it should be about 2 weeks till i get it posted up

 

[comacho]

cool, thanks for the update,

goodluck