Very high dose eurycoma (aka lang jax, tongkat ali)

[Neil5585]

Has anyone tried very high doses of eurycoma? I've heard up to 3g, but what about 4, 5, 6g+? I've read it seems to be dose-dependent, but is this tolerable?

[Neil5585]

Bumpity....anyone?

[terminator]

What benefit are you looking for? Is it for ED?

[Neil5585]

Only 8 days of use to boost natural test levels as high as possible. Rat studies seem to suggest it's dose dependent but I'm wondering what peoples' experience is with higher than 3g/day doses are. It would be every day for those 8 days.

[terminator]

I would be interested to know as well since I could only find studies on rat's libido with Eurycoma longifolia.

Do you exhibit any side effects at 3g (insomnia, irritability, increase in body temp)?

It would be difficult to tell what the theraputic level for this would be without human clinical trials.

[jminis]

I'd be interested in seeing some results from that.

[Neil5585]

Maybe I'll just have to be the guinea pig....

[John Smeton]

go for it..Interested in results as wekk as I just got done Blue up which has this

[E J]

I think it may elevate prolactin, but not sure. Maybe you can stack it with some l-dopa?

[blind12]

Has anyone tried very high doses of eurycoma? I've heard up to 3g, but what about 4, 5, 6g+? I've read it seems to be dose-dependent, but is this tolerable?

3 g of what ?
Native medicinal usage is 50 g of root chips or powdered root brewed into tea.
That's equivalent to 1 g of 50:1 extract.
With other extract potencies the amounts will be different.

[John Smeton]

Bump is anyone going though with testing this??

[chainsaw]

I kind of have a thing for LJ I tried just about every kind out there. The one that is being reffered to is Indonesian Tongkat Ali 50:1 I dosed up to 3600-4000mg a day for a month and loved it, I tried LJ100 and results were not as favorable as the 50:1, but it was more convienet and more cost effective. My biggest mistake was never to get bloodwork, it would have answered alot of question for me. At dose of 50:1 at 4000mg I noticed more aggresiveness in the gym a good strength gain, weight gain I really was too small amount 2-3lbs to just contribute to a product. I never got any signs of gyno but I did look visuably wet. I am using a 100:1 product right now from Genabolix with is called Eurychrome, it is supposed to be better than LJ100 because it protects the key compenents better. It feels good right now I finish week 2 today I am dosing 150mg 2 times a day. I have 50 grams of the stuff so maybe I will get a chance to get bloodwork done. I would love to try LongJax 20:1 for NutraPlanet this speculates it is the most superior form. Maybe someday I will get bloodwork done. For now LJ100 is a good way to go small doses cheap and convienent.

Search on this forum as well as other for LongJack/Tongkat Ali I have posted in all of them some with a lot of research.

[Neil5585]

I ordered SciFit's supposedly "pharmaceutical grade" Eurycoma that comes in 750mg tabs. I won't be using it for about a month, though. If this works perhaps I'll look into higher doses, but in the mean time it's not the cheapest supplement so I'm going with normal doses to see if higher doses would even be worth it.

I'll be taking 3g a day, and I plan to chew up the tabs with some oil since I read the active ingredient is lipophyllic. Not sure if that will help, but it can't hurt. I'm thinking along the lines of like the powdered vitamin E isn't absorbed well unless taken with fat since it's fat soluble.

[chainsaw]

Just something more to consider.

LJ100 vs. LongJax 20:1

LJ100 is a Eurycoma product that is a 100:1 water extract. They recently have standardized their product based on Europeptide. They had a patent application filed on that. I have read carefully the patent application (US 2004/0087493). I am not convinced that the peptide they identified, 36 amino acids, 4.3KD is responsible for the biological activity for the following reason:

A) The only biological test they did in the patent application was using a Fr3 fraction by size-exclusive column. This faction contains many things, among them the 36 amino acids, 4.3KD peptide. Based on my many year’s experience in drug-based screening, unless you purify the peptide or synthesis the peptide and use it for the biological testing, you can not conclude at all that the peptide is responsible for the effect. IN fact, 98% of the cases it is not responsible.

Based on my experience, peptide normally elute at 20-40 mins range. 9 mins elute is too early for peptide, which makes me skeptical.

C) If you look at the HPLC graph on Figure 3 of the patent application, there are many different components there. Unless they specifically tested the peptide (which did not show in the patent), they can not conclude that the peptide is responsible for the biological effect.

Unless they have direct data, Europeptide is misleading to me.

2) Lab Analysis

If they believe that it is the glycoprotein that is responsible, our product has high content of glycoprotein, even at a 20:1 ratio. Here is the result of our LongJax versus LJ 100 done at the same independent lab:

Based on the Glycoprotein level, our product provides 10 fold more value compared to LJ100 since their product is 5 times more concentrated. This is conceivable because optimal extraction concentration will likely retain more useful ingredients.

3) Human Studies:

The optimum test of the biological function is, of course, the effectiveness in human. We have also carried a small human test, and fortunately, used the same method as done by LJ100. Thus it can be used as a comparison.

1) LJ100 study (copied from Website)

Saliva Testosterone Test of 9 Individuals 26-52 years of Age

¢Dosage 2x2(50mg/capsules) morning & evening for 10 days

¢Normal range for athlete 800 = 150ng/dl of blood

Volunteer age pre treatment after treatment %

ng/dl blood ng/dl blood Increase

1 26 860 = 30 1,650 = 50 91.86%

2 28 580 = 30 985 = 35 69.83%

3 35 875 = 40 1, 576 = 60 80.11%

4 24 950 = 45 2,210 = 55 132.63%

5 29 755 = 30 1,345 = 35 78.15%

6 48 650 = 20 875 = 30 34.62%

7 52 450 = 25 765 = 35 70.00%

8 50 585 = 25 875 = 35 49.57%

9 42 350 = 30 480 = 35 37.14%

Data – preliminary data - more work to be carried out

Volunteers 1-5 are athletes - data are an average of 3 different studies at different times

Volunteers 6-9 do not exercise on a regular basis

2) Longjax study

Testosterone Saliva Test

(Dosage 800mg/day for 5 days)

Volunteer Age Pre-treatment After-treatment % increase

(ng/dl) (ng/dl)
______________________________ ____________________ _______

1 61 49.9 130.9 150%

2 40 147 274 86%

3 25 181 334 85%
______________________________ ____________________ _______

*Tests were done in the US by medical clinical labs.

*Samples were collected same time every morning.

*Preliminary data

* Volunteers do not exercise on a regular basis.

Notice that in normal individuals, LJ100 at 200mg/day (100:1 extract) increased T on an average 47.83% in four individuals. Longjax, on the other hand, increased T on an average 107% in three individuals at a dosage of 800mg/day (20:1 extract). Thus, LongJax is 2-fold effective in human tests even at a lower dosage as compared to LJ100.

4) Safety Issue:

Longjax has a LD50 of greater than 5g/kg (the highest people normally test). We spent more money to have the test done in Japan to insure quality.

5) Other Quality Advantages of Longjax

A. We set internal quality control standards. We take steps to make sure our quality is consistent. B. We do studies in the US to assure accuracy.
C. LongJaX is reprocessed in the US. As a result, it offers the following three advantages.
a) Free flowing and friendly for manufacturing.
The eurycoma extract tends to be clumpy when stored over a period of time. The capsule may not look the same as the new ones. LongJaX can store much longer without the same issue. Your capsules can maintain its original form over time.

c) The eurycoma extract can have high yeast and mould. The reprocessing process will help control yeast and mould.

d).Our material is made of roots. There are inferior materials on the market that are made of trunk. Such extract may have low potency and high toxic ingredients

[CanMan]

Just something more to consider.

LJ100 vs. LongJax 20:1

LJ100 is a Eurycoma product that is a 100:1 water extract. They recently have standardized their product based on Europeptide. They had a patent application filed on that. I have read carefully the patent application (US 2004/0087493). I am not convinced that the peptide they identified, 36 amino acids, 4.3KD is responsible for the biological activity for the following reason:

A) The only biological test they did in the patent application was using a Fr3 fraction by size-exclusive column. This faction contains many things, among them the 36 amino acids, 4.3KD peptide. Based on my many year’s experience in drug-based screening, unless you purify the peptide or synthesis the peptide and use it for the biological testing, you can not conclude at all that the peptide is responsible for the effect. IN fact, 98% of the cases it is not responsible.

Based on my experience, peptide normally elute at 20-40 mins range. 9 mins elute is too early for peptide, which makes me skeptical.

C) If you look at the HPLC graph on Figure 3 of the patent application, there are many different components there. Unless they specifically tested the peptide (which did not show in the patent), they can not conclude that the peptide is responsible for the biological effect.

Unless they have direct data, Europeptide is misleading to me.

2) Lab Analysis

If they believe that it is the glycoprotein that is responsible, our product has high content of glycoprotein, even at a 20:1 ratio. Here is the result of our LongJax versus LJ 100 done at the same independent lab:

Based on the Glycoprotein level, our product provides 10 fold more value compared to LJ100 since their product is 5 times more concentrated. This is conceivable because optimal extraction concentration will likely retain more useful ingredients.

3) Human Studies:

The optimum test of the biological function is, of course, the effectiveness in human. We have also carried a small human test, and fortunately, used the same method as done by LJ100. Thus it can be used as a comparison.

1) LJ100 study (copied from Website)

Saliva Testosterone Test of 9 Individuals 26-52 years of Age

¢Dosage 2x2(50mg/capsules) morning & evening for 10 days

¢Normal range for athlete 800 = 150ng/dl of blood

Volunteer age pre treatment after treatment %

ng/dl blood ng/dl blood Increase

1 26 860 = 30 1,650 = 50 91.86%

2 28 580 = 30 985 = 35 69.83%

3 35 875 = 40 1, 576 = 60 80.11%

4 24 950 = 45 2,210 = 55 132.63%

5 29 755 = 30 1,345 = 35 78.15%

6 48 650 = 20 875 = 30 34.62%

7 52 450 = 25 765 = 35 70.00%

8 50 585 = 25 875 = 35 49.57%

9 42 350 = 30 480 = 35 37.14%

Data – preliminary data - more work to be carried out

Volunteers 1-5 are athletes - data are an average of 3 different studies at different times

Volunteers 6-9 do not exercise on a regular basis

2) Longjax study

Testosterone Saliva Test

(Dosage 800mg/day for 5 days)

Volunteer Age Pre-treatment After-treatment % increase

(ng/dl) (ng/dl)
______________________________ ____________________ _______

1 61 49.9 130.9 150%

2 40 147 274 86%

3 25 181 334 85%
______________________________ ____________________ _______

*Tests were done in the US by medical clinical labs.

*Samples were collected same time every morning.

*Preliminary data

* Volunteers do not exercise on a regular basis.

Notice that in normal individuals, LJ100 at 200mg/day (100:1 extract) increased T on an average 47.83% in four individuals. Longjax, on the other hand, increased T on an average 107% in three individuals at a dosage of 800mg/day (20:1 extract). Thus, LongJax is 2-fold effective in human tests even at a lower dosage as compared to LJ100.

4) Safety Issue:

Longjax has a LD50 of greater than 5g/kg (the highest people normally test). We spent more money to have the test done in Japan to insure quality.

5) Other Quality Advantages of Longjax

A. We set internal quality control standards. We take steps to make sure our quality is consistent. B. We do studies in the US to assure accuracy.
C. LongJaX is reprocessed in the US. As a result, it offers the following three advantages.
a) Free flowing and friendly for manufacturing.
The eurycoma extract tends to be clumpy when stored over a period of time. The capsule may not look the same as the new ones. LongJaX can store much longer without the same issue. Your capsules can maintain its original form over time.

c) The eurycoma extract can have high yeast and mould. The reprocessing process will help control yeast and mould.

d).Our material is made of roots. There are inferior materials on the market that are made of trunk. Such extract may have low potency and high toxic ingredients

Chain, I get really huge on this stuff, but puffy huge, including my face ( not kewl with the ladies ) , almost like a panax ginseng puff.... not sure how to manage, so I go off.... this happen to you at all ??? I wouldn't say it's gyno / water retention, just not sure WTF it is..... makes my libidocrazy, tho ( LJ100 )

[bearmeat]

Chain, I get really huge on this stuff, but puffy huge, including my face ( not kewl with the ladies ) , almost like a panax ginseng puff.... not sure how to manage, so I go off.... this happen to you at all ??? I wouldn't say it's gyno / water retention, just not sure WTF it is..... makes my libidocrazy, tho ( LJ100 )

If the study is indeed accurate and not biased...then the puffiness may be a result of increased aromatization. Using an AI like androstenetrione/6-OXO would help.

[CanMan]

If the study is indeed accurate and not biased...then the puffiness may be a result of increased aromatization. Using an AI like androstenetrione/6-OXO would help.

tks.... I got some 6 OXO too.... apparently, they just made it illegal up here in Canada....

[bearmeat]

I just read another thread and apparently the side effects you are experiencing may be from increased prolactin. If this indeed is the case, you would want to use dopaminergics like cabergoline to mitigate the negative side effects.

[chainsaw]

tks.... I got some 6 OXO too.... apparently, they just made it illegal up here in Canada....

I thought I stated earlier that I did look wetter, like puffyness, also a little more acne and greasy forehead. Never noticed any gyno though. I would agree an AI would work well with these possibly transdermal formestane.

[heebs10]

this is a really noobie question and i feel dumb for asking because it still confuses me but can someone explain how the ratio extract thing to me so i know im right in my thinking. i mean how this stuff is to be interpreted: 20:1, 100:1, 50:1, and LJ100. i would think 100:1 is the best ratio but it seems like that thought is incorrect. anyone please help me understand?