Gaspari Thyrotabs

[thahotboy]

is it SAfe to Take Gaspari thyrotabs ? what CAn I add to maximize the fatburn !

 

[jasonschaffin]

run them with SAN Thyrocuts II

 

[thahotboy]

both ? hummm i dont think it's a good idea... lol

 

[jasonschaffin]

both ? hummm i dont think it's a good idea... lol

Got from the lean bulk forum, where a well known doc posts. If ran concurrently pill for pill it stopped suppression of they thyroid. I trust the doc and his blood test.

 

[T H E O R E M]

well considering he no longer recommends them does in fact bother me now too lol

 

[thahotboy]

well considering he no longer recommends them does in fact bother me now too lol

same for me ... heheeh

 

[Distilled Water]

well considering he no longer recommends them does in fact bother me now too lol

who no longer reccomends them, the doc over at Lean bulk? I was just there and found no evidence of that anywhere.

 

[slow-mun]

AFAIK, Dinoiii hasn't ever really recommended this product.

 

[ManInTheBox]

i've heard some bad reactions to these...i personally would not touch them.

 

[jasonschaffin]

AFAIK, Dinoiii hasn't ever really recommended this product.

Ok, seeing how we are going "public," I would like everyone to know that we have had relative success with running the two products concurrently without shutdown up to 3 caps in many instances (based on body mass) per day on both sides.


Allow me to let everyone in on the way our conversation went down in emails (with the appropriate small-talk omissions ):


Mace:
hey d,
what you think of thyrotabs? whats a good dosing protocol to use?
~JLM


dinoiii:
Hey Jamie,

In regards to your Thyrotabs question - we have found a couple of things lab-wise with this product. Some people have actually come back with poor thyroid function (hypothyroid labs) and others with good - so kind of a mixed review.

What we have been doing lately, however, is combining GASPARI Thyrotabs with SAN Thyrocuts II (at the same time), 1 tab of each up to three times a day dependent upon body mass and have actually had great results in this fashion, so if you can afford it and want to give it a go, I would encourage employment of both products together - which I don't tend to recommend more rather than less, so you can assume we have seen decent results this way (99% borderline hypERthyroid lab results; NON-suppressive). So - this is the only way - if you are going to use them I would say to do it.

So - hope this finds you well.

D_


Mace:
hey dana,
Thanks for the advice. no need to taper down at the end of the cycle?


~JLM


dinoiii:
Hey Jamie,

No real need to taper down...you may try some Kelp tabs or other iodine-containing supplement - I think ALRI makes one called Thyrogen-X but I am unsure I am getting the name correct.

D_

Thyrotabs, so all reading it are clear, have produced mixed results. Though the results have been almost universally positive (probably greater than the 99% level) in lab efforts when coupling it with one of the few T2 supplements that remain on the market. It may be as simple as employing concurrent use of Gaspari Thyrotabs + SAN Thyrocuts II.

D_

Hope he doesn't mind me quoting him.

 

[dinoiii]

AFAIK, Dinoiii hasn't ever really recommended this product.

This is actually correct.

I don't "recommend" many products without a lot of data. What was discussed at Lean Bulk centered on how to best employ products already purchased by a member.

The addition of T2 seems to compensate; though one cannot be sure it just doesn't correct the misfortune of running the Thyrotabs stand alone.

We have not compared T2 stand alone vs. T2 + Thyrotabs to date, so one might suggest that the T2 stand alone is a better bet (with minimal, if any suppression despite propaganda to the contrary) AND it is a LOT cheaper!!!



D_

 

[dinoiii]

Hope he doesn't mind me quoting him.

Nope, providing the context of the quote is not mislead. You seemed to get everything. The discussion is still going on over at that forum though about different scenarios and thyroid potentiation/suppression, et al...


D_

 

[jasonschaffin]

Nope, providing the context of the quote is not mislead. You seemed to get everything. The discussion is still going on over at that forum though about different scenarios and thyroid potentiation/suppression, et al...


D_

Thats why I made sure to mention it was at your forum so they could read. I just recommended if he was gonna run it use the thyrocuts with it.

 

[SamBoz19]

Yes they are safe and very effective!

is it SAfe to Take Gaspari thyrotabs ? what CAn I add to maximize the fatburn !

Yes it is safe to use them if you have no thyroidal problems. If you have a clean bill of health and have no medical history of problems your good to go. However, since you seem to be quite unsure of using them I would recommend asking a Doctor's expert advice before taking the plunge. Your body is your temple so you definitely want to make sure your safe rather than sorry.

Another thing of note....you must make sure to taper up the dose on these and then taper the dose down. One thing I will make you aware of though...be prepared for some extra added lethargy. However, you can counter this side effect by taking some extra tyrosine, but you have to find your sweet spot with the tyrosine as well...my suggestion is take no more than 400mg a day if you haven't used it before. Even with taking the tyrosine I would recommend making sure you do not take the TT's around your workout because they generally have you feeling uninspired if you take them around your workout.

Beyond that, go to the Gaspari website to get an idea of how to run it. If you do decide to run it....they do work quite well...I've used them 3 times and have not been disappointed with the results in the slightest.

 

[dinoiii]

As far as tapers go, the evolution of said protocols evolved with the general bodybuilding populace's embrace of things like Cytomel and Synthroid.

Thyrotabs is very mild comparatively, allowing the user much more latitude.

A taper-up is the same as any stimulant/fat-loss agent ... usually assigned to address the potential for tolerance to the agent rather than abrupt introduction. A taper-down has less merit with this compound verified through lab analysis. Whether or not this is secondary to suppressive adaptation times or half-lives, etc... remains unclear, but the recommendation to follow said taper-down methods seems to hold little weight in reality outside of what generalized Pharm agents might recommend.



D_

 

[daniel35]

If I was researching a lab rat with t3 would there be any benefit to add in t2 or thyrotabs?

 

[dmangiarelli]

I am planning an upcoming cut with Thyrotabs/Activate Xtreme/Lean Xtreme. Is there any benefit to adding in Blueprint or creating a Thyrotabs/Blueprint cutting cycle? The reason I ask is that I was following several Blueprint logs and the results looked very impressive. Just not too sure if there are any drawbacks to running it with Thyrotabs or the whole stack of TT/AX/LX + Blueprint.

Thanks!

 

[dinoiii]

If I was researching a lab rat with t3 would there be any benefit to add in t2 or thyrotabs?

A direct answer to your question is very tricky. The use of additional thyroidal modulators like T2 or Thyrotabs in someone who is employing the use of Cytomel should be approached with caution as metabolism can be OVERLY excited, leading to a HYPERcatabolic state. While this may lead to quicker acute fat loss, it will also lead to muscle-wasting, bone loss, and may prove fatal if you have a hidden underlying heart condition.

I am NOT necessarily a fan of baseline employment of synthetic T3 unless we are talking dose adjustments in cases of Euthyroid Sick Syndrome though these cases can be easily diverted to the non-sick equivalent through dietary manipulation in someone without overt hypO- or hypER- thyroidism.

Too - considering the fact that T3 ultimately has a propensity to convert to T2 in many metabolic instances kind of can cause uncoupling processes (essential to fat loss and beyond the scope of this post) to become less efficient over time. Mere employment of T2 already requires a cyclic nature of taking the product especially if you couple this with the upregulation of beta-andrenergic receptor concentration.



Currently, there are no established guidelines in this case, though I am hesitant to suggest it because of the potential that already exists to maintain a permanent hypERthyroid state with T3 "cessation."


For now, T3 monotherapeutic trials (if you are going to call it "prudent" so be it) would dictate with the most data, anecdotal or otherwise. [EDIT: This in long-winded translation means NO!]

T2 + Thyrotabs appears to minimally cross-out any potential of ill-effects when seen by the Thyrotabs alone.


D_

 

[dinoiii]

I am planning an upcoming cut with Thyrotabs/Activate Xtreme/Lean Xtreme. Is there any benefit to adding in Blueprint or creating a Thyrotabs/Blueprint cutting cycle? The reason I ask is that I was following several Blueprint logs and the results looked very impressive. Just not too sure if there are any drawbacks to running it with Thyrotabs or the whole stack of TT/AX/LX + Blueprint.

Thanks!

Blue Print appears to aid blood sugar concentrations an average of 10mg/dl above and beyond that of the 300mg of R-ALA alone - potentially allowing for attributing said effects to the work of the Agmatine sulfate.

Overall, with this being said - addition to the above supplement additions may prove fruitful dependent upon macronutrient tallies over the course of your "cut."

Because I do NOT have enough information about your individual case, I will offer another popular concept. If you are employing some sort of CKD, however, it is imperative to hold off on employment of this agent with carb-up periods.

In other words...if you are running a CKD, ideal your supplement split would possibly look something like this:

Mon-Fri: TT/Thyrocuts, AX, LX, BP.
Sat-Sun: AX, LX ONLY!!! (if this corresponds to a carb-up)




D_

 

[dmangiarelli]

Blue Print appears to aid blood sugar concentrations an average of 10mg/dl above and beyond that of the 300mg of R-ALA alone - potentially allowing for attributing said effects to the work of the Agmatine sulfate.

Overall, with this being said - addition to the above supplement additions may prove fruitful dependent upon macronutrient tallies over the course of your "cut."

Because I do NOT have enough information about your individual case, I will offer another popular concept. If you are employing some sort of CKD, however, it is imperative to hold off on employment of this agent with carb-up periods.

In other words...if you are running a CKD, ideal your supplement split would possibly look something like this:

Mon-Fri: TT/Thyrocuts, AX, LX, BP.
Sat-Sun: AX, LX ONLY!!! (if this corresponds to a carb-up)




D_

More than likely I will not be employing a ckd rather a lower calorie diet with macros in the range of 40/30/30 P/C/F and added cardio as in 4-5 times a week for 30-45 minutes.

I am 42 and in good health, BP is 110/73, resting pulse is 53. I currently lift on a 4 day split/3 days off, M,T, TH,F with Wed, Sat., Sun off.

 

[SamBoz19]

Interesting!

As far as tapers go, the evolution of said protocols evolved with the general bodybuilding populace's embrace of things like Cytomel and Synthroid.

Thyrotabs is very mild comparatively, allowing the user much more latitude.

A taper-up is the same as any stimulant/fat-loss agent ... usually assigned to address the potential for tolerance to the agent rather than abrupt introduction. A taper-down has less merit with this compound verified through lab analysis. Whether or not this is secondary to suppressive adaptation times or half-lives, etc... remains unclear, but the recommendation to follow said taper-down methods seems to hold little weight in reality outside of what generalized Pharm agents might recommend.



D_

Makes sense...I appreciate the heads up scientific feedback. I personally like the taper up and taper down method...it has worked for me better than just taking the 3 tablets a day for 30 days. The lethargy is not as pronounced by doing the taper up and taper down method in my personal experience.

 

[moveweight]

i see SAN makes Thyro-Cuts II and T3. which one is better?

 

[dinoiii]

More than likely I will not be employing a ckd rather a lower calorie diet with macros in the range of 40/30/30 P/C/F and added cardio as in 4-5 times a week for 30-45 minutes.

I am 42 and in good health, BP is 110/73, resting pulse is 53. I currently lift on a 4 day split/3 days off, M,T, TH,F with Wed, Sat., Sun off.

All products will likely be fine overall, though 30% CHO challenges the need for many thyroid-stimulating agents. In this case, it would more depend on what your overall caloric intake was at.

BP makes a valid blood sugar-regulator overall and there are many health benefits. At 42, your endogenous polyamines - agmatine included - are actually on a decline, so you may see even more benefit.

I am uncertain if you have seen this article, but I will post a link in case not. It is more of a common-sensical rationale for Agmatine in general, co-written by myself and Joey Rodrigues of MAN Sports:

MAN Sports | Metabolic Augmenting Nutrition

* I was responsible for more of the science aspects.

For those that enjoy the science style writing, I did a slide show also and you can catch that here:

MAN Sports MAN-UP Discussion Board :: View topic - MAN BLUE PRINT Research & Slide Show Part I


If the science is a bit much - I followed the slide show with a Cliff's Notes version of all the in-depth science.


D_

 

[dinoiii]

Makes sense...I appreciate the heads up scientific feedback. I personally like the taper up and taper down method...it has worked for me better than just taking the 3 tablets a day for 30 days. The lethargy is not as pronounced by doing the taper up and taper down method in my personal experience.

If you are experiencing significant "lethargy" - you could be inducing a hypERthyroid scenario with crossover feedback into the adrenal systems where you would benefit from a cortisol-blocker as corticosterone is up-regulated in the hyperthyroid condition.

Concurrent employment of cortisol blockers and thyroid-stimulating agents is ideal in this scenario and I think you would benefit precipitously if this side effect is seen in the future. Over on LB we are discussing the implications of this feature of crossover feedback in greater depth; but this is the general gist.


D_

 

[dinoiii]

i see SAN makes Thyro-Cuts II and T3. which one is better?

"Better" is a relative term. This is usually based in what you are trying to accomplish.

Nonetheless, the two products are completely different!

Guggulsterones (the ingredient in the T3 product) have mixed review overall. Due to an endogenous mechanism, you can actually get a very positive set of implications on your lipid (cholesterol) profile; likely not much different than something like an ecdysterone. Of course - BOTH products would need heavy dosing schedules if they were to really mimic studies that showed benefit (1200mg for ecdy and 1500mg for gugul) which logically challenges that the products are heavily underdosed overall.

Still, lipid panels aside, there is some acne and arthritis literature with considerably less quantity that is enticing.

In order to properly induce thyroid stimulation with gugul though - you need to combine it with phosphate salts, HCA, and tyrosine - which might make the modest benefits be outweighed by the cost of the combo.

And then there's the whole estrogen receptor concept which is relatively new and only found in vitro which makes the concept rather hard to justify especially when sponsored by a competing drug company.


Nonetheless, Thyrocuts II features the age-old 3,5-diiodothyronine (the "di" "iodo" is literally in reference to the "two" "iodine" structures present) which is a byproduct of T3 metabolism. There appears to be active thyroid stimulation in use of T2 without the level of suppressive activity at the level of either the pituitary and/or hypothalmus like something like T3 (Cytomel). If you are unaccustomed to it, start low and go slow as they say. 100mcg per tab left me sweating in a very cool air-conditioned theatre (and we know how chilly they can get overall). This is an intense product that when combined in the past with Tiratricol has posed FDA issues - so just keep in mind the safety aspects ... used as monotherapy, it should likely be ok provided you assess your tolerance.


So, dependent upon what you want to do the added fringe benefits of a gugul don't compare to the thyroid-stimulating properties of the Thyrocuts, especially in the small concentration that is present in the T3 product. I guess you would potentially call the T2 product "better" in that regard...but really this is apples to oranges overall.



D_

 

[methodice]

"though 30% CHO challenges the need for many thyroid-stimulating agents"

dinoiii Are you saying that people on 30% CHO wouldn't really benefit from those agents, but people on low carb diets would be the main ones to benefit from thyroid agents?

 

[macedaddy]

run them with SAN Thyrocuts II

YEP! Dr. Dana Houser (dinoiii) has done a bunch of trials with the 2 combined, they work in synergy and prevent detrimental effects when coming off. (oops! didn't read the whole thread! HAHA! nice to see ya dinoiii)

I am running 1 of each per day very soon!

 

[dmangiarelli]

dinoiii,

Thanks for the information. in my cut diet most of my carbs come from cruciferous veggies like broccoli and cauliflower as well as brown rice, and whole okinawan sweet potatoes (skin on). On workout days I'll throw in some fruit an hour or so before my workout with my preWO meal.

I am confident I will have to tweak my diet to get it dialed in as this will be my first attempt at a hardcore cut but from past dieting experience I think this method will bring good results. Anything you have to add to this theory is much appreciated ... I have already learned a great deal from what you have posted so far. I will most likely log my cut here.

 

[Alpha-male]

dinoiii

How does Thermolife Dicana compare to SAN thyrocuts II for the purpose of stacking with Thyrotabs?

 

[dinoiii]

"though 30% CHO challenges the need for many thyroid-stimulating agents"

dinoiii Are you saying that people on 30% CHO wouldn't really benefit from those agents, but people on low carb diets would be the main ones to benefit from thyroid agents?

The dependency on benefiting from the addition proportional to side effects seen is more likely a direct relation to the level of hypOcaloricism employed. In other words, if you are on a drastic caloric reduction, you can still see resultant thyroidal woes; it is just more a scenario of whether or not you are hitting a particular threshold low.

A way to avoid this is employing an even higher number of meals over the course of the day.

To those familiar with my writing, you are familiar with one of my favored expressions: ten meals is better than nine; nine meals is better than eight; eight meals is better than seven; seven meals is better than six and so on...

If any of you have read my most current article on metabolic efficiency states in the first AX Magazine, you are familiar with hypothalamic progress through upping your meal tally over the course of a 24-hour period. If you have not seen the article - go the AX subforum and demand a copy!


D_

 

[dinoiii]

dinoiii,

Thanks for the information. in my cut diet most of my carbs come from cruciferous veggies like broccoli and cauliflower as well as brown rice, and whole okinawan sweet potatoes (skin on). On workout days I'll throw in some fruit an hour or so before my workout with my preWO meal.

I am confident I will have to tweak my diet to get it dialed in as this will be my first attempt at a hardcore cut but from past dieting experience I think this method will bring good results. Anything you have to add to this theory is much appreciated ... I have already learned a great deal from what you have posted so far. I will most likely log my cut here.

As I become more familiar with the people on this board (like others I have posted on before it), I certainly become more invested in familiar face's (or screen monikers' results). Please post a link as I would be curious to follow your progress.


D_

 

[dinoiii]

How does Thermolife Dicana compare to SAN thyrocuts II for the purpose of stacking with Thyrotabs?

Unfortunately, I have done no direct trials with the DIAC product - but we'll digress and make at least minimal note and subsequent pontification if I may. One might speculate that the resultant concentration of T3 and T2 (as well as TRIAC) be too small if not cummulatively considered efficacious.


Let's digress for those reading along:

So, we are all clear on thyroid hormones/metabolite interactions. Keep in mind, the actives stem from the T3/rT3 reactions as I have summarized below.

TRH --> TSH --> T4 <--> T3 <--> T2 <--> T1

*Please note that for simplicity, I have not included short-term and long-term regulatory transcription figures like 3’,5’ vs. 3’, 3’ designations. This is a complex discussion well beyond the scope of this thread.

T3 <--> rT3

Reactions of T3, rT3 are dependent upon iodination/condensation rxns:

T3, rT3 --> tyrosine molecules (MIT, DIT, and hypothesized TIT; not kidding)

T3, rT3 --> thyroacetic acid molecules (DIAC, TRIAC, TETRAC)

All of these subsequent metabolites do have pathways back to the parent molecules – direct and indirect.

“DIAC” offered above happens to correspond to Dicana and its activity is through pure hypothesis, but appears promising, and fortunately the only one not covered by a patent at the time (though not inherently unobvious of its imminent creation). The only thing I could offer though is that it is a LOT less efficacious than the parent molecules because alternative (namely 3rd party) data does NOT exist outside of the patent. In fact, the patent goes on to suggest that it doesn’t want to “bound to any theory…” YAWN! From anecdotal report, we assess the realm of possibility to exist only at about double the dose offered by the product which tends to subtract from cost-efficiency.

Recall that I said the metabolites have pathways back to the parent molecules and direct pathways do seem to occur (at least in test tube data) for conversion to T3, TRIAC, and T2. How the pathways are shunted likely corresponds to why there is less offered efficacy and the doubling of the dose would hence potentially be verified. The patent references doses ranging from 1mcg to 6mg (though seems to be content to suggest most adequate would lie between 100mcg and 1mg which is still pretty wide)!!! Such wide variation and the rationale is we DO NOT have the conversion numbers to report, so the guess minimally would continue to verify a higher dose before immediate dismissal some have proposed of the product.

Too, hopefully not completely compounding the product’s downfalls is the fact that administration is suggested to be need run anywhere from 3-6 times per day to maintain adequate blood hormone concentrations (now, this will likely challenge compliance…its like following a poorly-outlined transdermal scheme; oh wait a minute…there is also reports that this concept will be developed soon as well).

Boy oh boy, if I lost you before…this one will be a whopper. Hopefully, the bottom line is minimally evident.


D_

 

[badfish51581]

So, beyond the mechanics that you explained above and based on reading the patent, this is my understanding...

Dicana - Proprietary Combination Of Diiodothyroacetic Acid Isomer (likely some blend of 3,3'-Diiodothyronine and 3,5-Diiodothyronine)

Thyro cuts II - 3,5-Diiodothyronine

I did read your note not wanting to discuss that aspect...

*Please note that for simplicity, I have not included short-term and long-term regulatory transcription figures like 3’,5’ vs. 3’, 3’ designations. This is a complex discussion well beyond the scope of this thread.

...but it seemed relevant in distinguishing the products.

Then again, I'm not a doctor.

Joe

 

[badfish51581]

Upon reading other fourms early I also ran across this...

3,3'-Diiodothyronine
Advantages
* Almost no suppression of TSH/hypothalamic-pituitary-thyroid axis
* Stimulates cytochrome c oxidase - aka decouples Electron Transport Chain (slightly more than 3,5-T2)
* Precursor to T3 & T4 (which have their own metabolic properties of course)

Disadvantages
* Interferes with plasma membrane transport of T3
* No significant increases in growth hormone seen at any dosing levels

3,5-Diiodothyronine
Advantages
* Increases serum levels of growth hormone (GH) comprable to T3
* Stimulates cytochrome c oxidase - aka decouples Electron Transport Chain (slightly less than 3,3'-T2)
* Does not interfere with plasma membrane transport of T3
* Increases activation of Glucose-6-Phosphate Dehydrogenase

Disadvantages
* Suppression of TSH/hypothalamic-pituitary-thyroid axis is only slightly less but comprable to that of T3


Summary
If one is looking for strictly an increase in energy expenditure with less TSH depression, 3,3'-T2 is your answer..... If one is looking for more muscle mass preservation properties aswell and doesn't mind some TSH depression, 3,5-T2 is your answer....

On a final note though, I think T3 supplementation would probably be better than 3,5-T2 supplementation as serum 3,5-T2 as well as 3,3'-T2 concentrations have been shown to rise significantly with a marked rise in serum T3 following T3 administration. Also, just because T3 acts on the protein synthesis mechanism involved in the regulation of the mitochondrial mass (so is more indirect pathway) while both T2 act directly at the mitochondrial level, this doesn't mean it is less effective at interupting the ETC, in fact, T3 has been shown to exhibit slightly more of an effect even though it acts indirectly on the mitochondria....

 

[Alpha-male]

Thanks both dioniii and badfish. I'll go with the thyrocuts.

 

[musclescientist]

So, beyond the mechanics that you explained above and based on reading the patent, this is my understanding...

Dicana - Proprietary Combination Of Diiodothyroacetic Acid Isomer (likely some blend of 3,3'-Diiodothyronine and 3,5-Diiodothyronine)

Thyro cuts II - 3,5-Diiodothyronine

I did read your note not wanting to discuss that aspect...



...but it seemed relevant in distinguishing the products.

Then again, I'm not a doctor.

Joe

Joe,

DIAC = Diiodothyroacetic acid {acetic acid metabolite} and not {T2} Diiodothyronine (neither 3',3' [Thyrotabs] or 3',5' [Thyrocuts 2]

DIAC is kind of similar to TRIAC (Triax) but much further down the metabolic pathway.

 

[badfish51581]

Joe,

DIAC = Diiodothyroacetic acid {acetic acid metabolite} and not {T2} Diiodothyronine (neither 3',3' [Thyrotabs] or 3',5' [Thyrocuts 2]

DIAC is kind of similar to TRIAC (Triax) but much further down the metabolic pathway.

Ahh, and the plot thickens just as I thought I was begining to get my head around the science.

Thanks for clarification.

Joe

 

[brassmonkey]

Dii- What do you think of combining something like Thyrotabs and t2 with an anabolic stack like the ALRI Evo stack or other ph stack? What would be an example dosing with the thyrotabs and t2? Thanks in advance.