PH's vs "Natural" Supplements

[Boulderer]

I've seriously been considering doing a run of Epistane. However, some of the issues of post cycle therapy and potential problems vs. benefits have me wondering a few things.

Seeing as I have no access to a proper SERM, a straight through cycle is definitely not going to work. So it would have to be a pulse. What I'm wondering about, is would I be better served doing something like the AX UMC for 12 weeks vs a pulsing cycle of a PH compound?

It seems to me that all the side supps. you need for a PH cycle add up fast. Liver support, saw palmetto, hawthorne berry, milk thistle, etc. I know cycle support has all this, but cycle support never gets to Canada because of the red yeast rice. Then after a run of a PH you have post cycle therapy to deal with. If you don't have access to a SERM you need test boosters, AI, cortisol blocker, maybe something like post cycle support or dermacrine sustain, etc. Not to mention that maybe those things aren't strong enough to bring my boys back up and running. Not having done a PH cycle I don't know I specifically react to these compounds.

After all that's said and done, assuming I get minimal shutdown, I might end up with 8lbs of lean mass with a pulse. That just has me wondering if it's worth it? Perhaps I could run something "natural" (NHA, AX UMC, etc) for a longer period of time and get the same gains...yet not have to worry about shutdown, cholesterol, liver support, etc.

Before someone pipes in..I should mention all the requisite over 21, strict diet, proper sleep, proper training, etc, etc are all in order.

Thoughts? Assuming cost and/or patience in getting gains are not an issue, can you do just as well (or close) without the potential problems that a PH cycle can (sometimes) bring ?

[nosnmiveins]

i've never run a PH and dont feel like i need to at my age (20)...but u should definetly give thought to the Ax mass stack or a Rpm/Drive combo, both are great stacks

only difference is price, 3 bottles of EACH for the mass stack will get u 12 weeks and will cost a whooole lot (about $350), RPM/Drive will cost about $195 for 3 bottles of each

both stacsk are natural with no PCT needed

[EasyEJL]

or this is also viable, cheap as dirt right now too.

http://store.anabolicminds.com/produ...nha-stack.html

[EasyEJL]

Really phs probably should only be used once you can't manage to make gains anymore using the natural stacks. I want to do a ph cycle, but I managed to gain 1" on once bicep (3/4 on the other) in 8 weeks on a leviathan/incarnate stack with neovar + other creatines + BCAA. Its sort of a waste of the androgens to use them (and do what they do to your system) until you really need them.

[nosnmiveins]

Easy is correct, in 4 weeks ive managed to put on 13.5lbs with just bcaa's, protein,ba, Drive and lotttts of food...no need for ph's anytime soon for me....

[EasyEJL]

I'm 40, and have low testosterone, and i'm still gaining muscle anyhow

[Big BAMA]

I have used ph's and well I'll probably do it again. I am 39 and if I was in my twenties I wouldn't even consider it but being older I do.

[EasyEJL]

oh yeah, lets not leave x-factor out of the possible choices either, completely non-hormonal

[Irish Cannon]

I might get flamed for this, but many of the post-cycle products for some of these OTC hormonals are totally overrated and overhyped. After an Epistane cycle, you'll need:

Anabolic Innovation's Post Cycle Support, a good diet, and possibly a supplement like Pro-liver. I believe that Superdrol is really the only OTC hormonal that needs many of the other products. Keep ATD on hand in case of a gyno flare up. That's it.

I'm not condoning the use of designer orals or steroids or anything like that. I most likely won't use any of them ever again. I feel great being natural, and I think that's the route to take; however, I don't disagree with the use of these designer orals if you so choose. You don't need to go overboard with it. The best post cycle therapy I've ever had was after a Test prop/Fina/PP cycle that included only Toremifene/ATD and a liver supplement.

[Distilled Water]

My RPM+NeoVar stack was pretty sick. I added some nice strength and size. Comparable to my 4 week Havoc pulse last summer

[bigschmidt821]

post cycle support plus an AI of some sort like perhaps aPCT or one of ur choice would serve as a good OTC PCT for mild steroids like epi, halodrol and a few others

[heebs10]

if your unsure how u feel about running a ph, then dont. its not like u cat gain without them. like easy said, the NHA stack is amazing and is at a great price, i was actually reading thread the other day and and tripdog compared activate, in terms of gains, to a standalone cycle of halodrol 50. thats a dam strong and safe non-hormonal product if it compares to halo. so i would say shoot for the activate/entire NHA or for something like x-factor as mentioned before. or perhaps a stack of the 2, seems like that would give some amazing gains.

[EasyEJL]

Yeah, i'm considering buying an NHA stack just to have at that price, and save it for a future x-factor cycle. that way you are pretty well maximizing natural hormonal gains as well as non hormonal gains.

[jjohn]

You should definetly look into X Factor as well

[Boulderer]

Thanks for the input. Last bulking cycle I did a 50 day run of X-factor and was ahead 8lbs LBM at the end. So I was happy with the product. As for the NHA stack, I've got it sitting in the cupboard at home..ready to go for my next round of bulking. Now I'm thinking I may do a X-Factor/NHA Stack..that should work out well I'd think.

[jjohn]

Thanks for the input. Last bulking cycle I did a 50 day run of X-factor and was ahead 8lbs LBM at the end. So I was happy with the product. As for the NHA stack, I've got it sitting in the cupboard at home..ready to go for my next round of bulking. Now I'm thinking I may do a X-Factor/NHA Stack..that should work out well I'd think.

It's been done before, and it does produce very good results.

[UNCfan1]

or this is also viable, cheap as dirt right now too.

http://store.anabolicminds.com/produ...nha-stack.html

Hijack!

Good find E!