DHEA conversion

[Patrick Arnold]

Since people have been talkin DHEA alot i have been looking up studies. Specifically to see what metabolic pathways it follows in the body

In men, something rather odd is seen. DHEA and its sulfate increase alot and so does the downstream DHT metabolite 5alpha-androstane-3alpha-17beta-diol (5alpha-Adiol). Thats about it though

Now if you know your steroid pathways (almost no one here really does offhand i am sure) you might have noticed something odd about the above factoid. Thats cuz for DHEA to go to 5alpha-Adiol it has to go through stuff like androstenedione, testosterone, DHT etc. Yet these hormones are not elevated in the blood. Just the end metabolite is

This tells us that DHEA must be metabolized extensively in certain target tissues. In other words these tissues will take in DHEA and then spit out 5alpha-Adiol. In between they do with the intermediate horomones whatever it is that tissue does with the hormones (activate receptors, signal relevant physiological processess etc).

But what tissues are these? Well it has to be a tissue that at least is rich in 5alpha-reductase because the end product is 5alpha-reduced. That eliminates muscle because it has virtually no 5-AR. It would leave just about every other androgen dependent tissue however because they all pretty much have good amounts of 5-AR. Which tissues DHEA undergoes its paracrine conversion in I am not sure but i have heard skin mentioned as one of them.

ok i am kind of rambling and thinking as i go along but if skin is one of them then that may bode well for transdermal dhea products (unless you are a chick and/or apply to your scalp). That is because by this route you may end up with substantial conversion to 5alpha-Adiol by the time the hormone gets into the dermal blood supply. this may result in enough 5alpha-Adiol to make it physiologically significant as a DHT source, and of course that would mean modest anabolic and ergogenic effects (with the coinciding down sides of course)

comments?



Fertil Steril. 2004 Mar;81(3):595-604. Links
Pharmacokinetics of dehydroepiandrosterone and its metabolites after long-term daily oral administration to healthy young men.Acacio BD, Stanczyk FZ, Mullin P, Saadat P, Jafarian N, Sokol RZ.
Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Keck School of Medicine, University of Southern California, Los Angeles, California, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To determine the effects of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) supplementation on the pharmacokinetics of DHEA and its metabolites and the reproductive axis of healthy young men. DESIGN: A prospective, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled pharmacokinetic study. SETTING: General Clinical Research Center and laboratories at the Keck School of Medicine of the University of Southern California, Los Angeles, California. PATIENT(S): Fourteen healthy men, ages 18-42 years. INTERVENTION(S): Daily oral administration of placebo (n = 5), 50 mg DHEA (n = 4), or 200 mg DHEA (n = 5) for 6 months. Blood samples were collected at frequent intervals on day 1 and at months 3 and 6 of treatment. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Quantification of DHEA, DHEA sulfate (DHEAS), androstenedione, T, E(2), dihydrotestosterone (DHT), and 5alpha-androstane-3alpha-17beta-diol glucuronide (ADG). Physical examination, semen analysis, serum LH, FSH, prostate-specific antigen, and general chemistries were carried out. RESULT(S): Baseline DHEA, DHEAS, and ADG levels increased significantly from day 1 to months 3 and 6 in the DHEA treatment groups but not in the placebo group. No significant changes were observed in pharmacokinetic values. Clinical parameters were not affected. CONCLUSION(S): DHEA, DHEAS, and ADG increased significantly during 6 months of daily DHEA supplementation. Although the pharmacokinetics of DHEA and its metabolites are not altered, sustained baseline elevation of ADG, a distal DHT metabolite, raises concerns about the potential negative impact of DHEA supplementation on the prostate gland.

PMID: 15037408 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[quigs]

Since people have been talkin DHEA alot i have been looking up studies. Specifically to see what metabolic pathways it follows in the body

In men, something rather odd is seen. DHEA and its sulfate increase alot and so does the downstream DHT metabolite 5alpha-androstane-3alpha-17beta-diol (5alpha-Adiol). Thats about it though

Now if you know your steroid pathways (almost no one here really does offhand i am sure) you might have noticed something odd about the above factoid. Thats cuz for DHEA to go to 5alpha-Adiol it has to go through stuff like androstenedione, testosterone, DHT etc. Yet these hormones are not elevated in the blood. Just the end metabolite is

This tells us that DHEA must be metabolized extensively in certain target tissues. In other words these tissues will take in DHEA and then spit out 5alpha-Adiol. In between they do with the intermediate horomones whatever it is that tissue does with the hormones (activate receptors, signal relevant physiological processess etc).

But what tissues are these? Well it has to be a tissue that at least is rich in 5alpha-reductase because the end product is 5alpha-reduced. That eliminates muscle because it has virtually no 5-AR. It would leave just about every other androgen dependent tissue however because they all pretty much have good amounts of 5-AR. Which tissues DHEA undergoes its paracrine conversion in I am not sure but i have heard skin mentioned as one of them.

ok i am kind of rambling and thinking as i go along but if skin is one of them then that may bode well for transdermal dhea products (unless you are a chick and/or apply to your scalp). That is because by this route you may end up with substantial conversion to 5alpha-Adiol by the time the hormone gets into the dermal blood supply. this may result in enough 5alpha-Adiol to make it physiologically significant as a DHT source, and of course that would mean modest anabolic and ergogenic effects (with the coinciding down sides of course)

comments?

Interesting. The DHT conversion of the 5-alpha could also explain some of the neurological effects of DHEA supplementation. I see that they used oral DHEA in the study, do you think that transdermal application would provide that much better results?

Also, have you looked at the full text of this article? I'm curious as to how much 5-alpha conversion was considered "significant". How much androgenic activity does 5-alpha have on its own or does it need to be converted to DHT via 3HSD first?

 

[BigSmith]

Here we go.........

 

[whitedevil74]

Lets just try to keep it civil and discuss the science that is way over my head.

 

[quigs]

Here we go.........

This would actually bode well for DHEA supplementation IMO.

 

[B5150]

CONCLUSION(S): DHEA, DHEAS, and ADG increased significantly during 6 months of daily DHEA supplementation. Although the pharmacokinetics of DHEA and its metabolites are not altered, sustained baseline elevation of ADG, a distal DHT metabolite, raises concerns about the potential negative impact of DHEA supplementation on the prostate gland.

PMID: 15037408 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

There is a lot of research that may suggest that DHT is not a sole prostate cancer culprit but that elevated estrogen may be a critical contributing factor. This gets discussed at good length in our Anti-Aging Forum. Here are some references that I could find at a glance.

Dietary influences on endocrine-inflammatory inter...[Arch Biochem Biophys. 2004] - PubMed Result
Estrogen and prostate cancer: An eclipsed truth in...[J Cell Biochem. 2007] - PubMed Result

 

[drewh10987]

I love reading PA threads, because they are so knowledgeable and entertaining...even if I hardly understand them.

Thanks PA.

 

[ReaperX]

In before the lock......which will happen eventually.

 

[Dr Packenwood]

You know, looking back in retrospect, I wish to god I hadn't failed chemistry. I aced physics and such. But chemistry made me her b***h, and she had no problems shaming me.

:nutkick: :nutkick: :nutkick: :nutkick: :nutkick: :nutkick:

 

[Ddono25]

Is it just me or does anyone notice this is almost the exact same way PA went about outing AX's last big project, 3-AD??? He citied some interesting studies he'd just happened to looking around for. Lots of speculation about SDNG and how it converts directly to test and 5-AD...... I know it has been covered many times that AX claims SDNG is NOT DHEA in any form, but this kinda peaks my interest.

 

[jasonschaffin]

Hopefully some of the better chemist can get in here and throw around ideas without getting out of line. This post of PA's seems very civil, can we keep the thread this way?!
Bump for the guys who know their chem/biochem!

 

[FitnFirm]

Hey guess what ?


[size=+3]GET SUPERDROL NG at NUTRAPLANET NOW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/size]


This has been a public announcement

 

[b unit]

sub'd to learn more as until know i've never really considered DHEA good for anything but i'm honesty interested

:thumbsup:

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Interesting. The DHT conversion of the 5-alpha could also explain some of the neurological effects of DHEA supplementation. I see that they used oral DHEA in the study, do you think that transdermal application would provide that much better results?

Also, have you looked at the full text of this article? I'm curious as to how much 5-alpha conversion was considered "significant". How much androgenic activity does 5-alpha have on its own or does it need to be converted to DHT via 3HSD first?

the point was that transdermal would likely give more 5alpha conversion since the residence time in the skin before reaching the bloodstream is quite prolonged. And skin likely has the enzymes present to perform the conversion.

Not that we are looking at major conversion, just more than you get with oral

not sure about the activity of 5adiol on its own but much of what i have read has indicated not much, at least in muscle. so conversion is important

 

[FitnFirm]

About DHEA
Synonyms: dehydroepiandrosterone, 3beta-hydroxyandrost-5-en-17-one,
5-androstene-3beta-ol-17-one, prasterone
by Alvin Hashimoto
DHEA is a steroidal hormone produced by the adrenal glands in substantial amounts; it is a precursor from which the body makes testosterone, estradiol, and a number of other steroid hormones. DHEA is thought to have other functions, but little is known about them. As a precursor, however, DHEA has a significant impact on the body’s production of hormones and other substances, which in turn have profound physiological effects. The sulfate of DHEA, “DHEA-S”, seems to serve as a reservoir for DHEA in the blood.

DHEA was discovered in 1931. An inkling of its possible significance in aging was uncovered in the 1950s when it was found that blood DHEA levels decline dramatically as people age. The possibility that supplementing with DHEA might therefore counteract aging led to its marketing as a nutritional supplement in the early 1980s. In 1985, the U.S. FDA, acting in typical totalitarian fashion, banned products containing DHEA. Supplement companies then began selling wild yam extract, claiming that the extract is converted to DHEA in the body; however, very little such conversion actually takes place in humans. DHEA reemerged as a supplement in 1994, with passage of the federal Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act, and has been immensely popular ever since.

Typical claims made for DHEA

(1) Cancer: Reduces risk of cancers of the breast, prostate, lung, colon, liver, and skin
(2) Heart: Prevents heart disease and atherosclerosis, reduces cortisol (a promoter of heart disease)
(3) Muscle: Builds lean muscle mass, decreases breakdown of muscle tissue
(4) Fat: Reduces body fat; prevents lipodystrophy due to HIV protease inhibitors, reduces cortisol (a promoter of visceral fat)
(5) Insulin: Increases insulin-producing cells and insulin sensitivity; prevents diabetes and diabetes-induced damage
(6) Anti-aging: Increases life span by 50%
(7) Hair: Causes growth of pubic hair in people who lack it. (Not everyone would consider this a benefit, but some do.)
(8) Skin: Improves thickness, color, wrinkles, elasticity, collagen, puffiness under eyes
(9) Energy: Improves thermogenesis and energy production; treats chronic fatigue syndrome
(10) Immunity: Improves immunity and response to vaccination; treats infectious diseases
(11) Cognition: Improves memory; protects brain cells from neurotoxic neurotransmitters (e.g., NMDA)
(12) Mood: Decreases depression, anxiety, and stress; improves mood
(13) Bone: Decreases bone loss, increases in bone density
(14) Lupus: Relieves lupus erythematosus
(15) HRT: Is an effective hormone replacement therapy for men and women
(16) Sex: Increases libido, improves sexual function
(17) Fertility: Increases fertility in women; could inhibit menstruation in pre-menopausal women
(18) Other ailments: Relieves arthritis, Parkinson’s, multiple sclerosis, inflammatory bowel disease, thyroid problems, herpes infections, allergies, and hormone imbalances

Typical claims made against DHEA

(19) Cancer: Could stimulate the growth of previously dormant tumors
(20) Heart: Causes cardiac arrhythmia
(21) Hair: Causes growth of body or facial hair, scalp hair loss
(22) Skin: Causes acne and seborrhea
(23) Mood: Causes irritability and aggression; causes severe mania
(24) Prostate: Causes prostate enlargement, difficulty urinating
(25) HRT: Increases estrogen levels in men, but not testosterone levels
(26) Fertility: Increases fertility in women; could inhibit menstruation in pre-menopausal women
(27) General claims: “Hardly anything is known about DHEA”; “problems associated with hormone use might not appear until years later”; “it’s the snake oil of the ’90s”; “should be classified as an investigational drug and used only in clinical research”; “doses greater than 5 mg should require a prescription”

The known facts about DHEA

Although there have been many studies of DHEA in recent years, the great majority of them have merely looked for correlations between medical problems and DHEA levels in the body. Such studies are essentially useless for practical purposes — they do not tell us whether low DHEA levels cause the problems and they tell us nothing about DHEA supplements as treatments for them. Of the remaining studies, most are tissue-culture experiments that, again, tell us little about DHEA supplementation. A few supplementation experiments have been done in rodents, but DHEA levels in rodents are negligible compared to those in humans — suggesting that the effects of DHEA may be different in these animals. A small number of human clinical studies exist and do shed a wan light on the subject, but the results are often contradictory and there is disagreement about interpretation. From this pathetic performance by the medical research world, we will draw what conclusions we can.

But first it should be noted that DHEA’s oral bioavailability and persistence in the body are still uncertain (see “Bioavailability and half-life” below). Perhaps the muddle in which DHEA clinical research finds itself is due to inconsistent absorption and hidden complexities in the body’s hormonal regulation. Hence, when a study shows no benefit from DHEA supplementation, we cannot tell whether this is due to a failure of DHEA or merely poor bioavailability or misinterpreted measurements of hormone levels. On the other hand, it is much harder to argue with a reasonably well-performed study that does show a benefit. Therefore, when there is disagreement between different studies, it makes sense to give greater credence to the studies that show benefits than to those that don’t, and this policy will be followed in the summary below.

Cancer (claims 1 and 19): DHEA supplementation appears to protect most tissues (except liver) from cancer initiation, but it may increase the growth rate of steroid-sensitive tumors if they already exist. Animal experiments suggest that DHEA might increase the risk of acquiring liver cancer.


Heart disease (claims 2 and 20): DHEA supplementation improves cholesterol and other lipid patterns in women when used for 12 months, and decreases cortisol levels in healthy older men and women. (Cortisol levels are associated with risk of heart disease.) In rodents, DHEA reduces atherosclerotic plaques. Although proper clinical studies are lacking, it would be reasonable to suppose that DHEA supplementation is of use in preventing or reversing heart disease in humans. The claim that DHEA causes cardiac arrhythmia (claim 20), is based on a single case in which a man who was taking DHEA experienced arrhythmia; in view of the fact that lots of people who don’t take DHEA experience arrhythmia, it would appear that people who use DHEA are less likely to experience arrhythmia than those who don’t.


Muscle (claim 3): Does DHEA supplementation promote muscle growth? Studies in rats suggest that it does. Several small human studies directly contradict each other on this point. In one study, however, 50 mg/day of DHEA produced a 10-20% increase of IGF-1 in both sexes. (IGF-1 is a highly anabolic growth factor that stimulates the growth of muscle and other tissues.) It seems likely that at sufficient dosages DHEA would have anabolic effects on muscle tissue.


Fat (claim 4): The very few studies that have been done in humans (at up to 1600 mg/day) have given contradictory results. In rats, on the other hand, DHEA supplementation lowered fat consumption and prevented age-related increases in body fat. High doses of DHEA (>1000 mg) do cause an increase in metabolic rate in humans, and fat reduction would be the expected result. As for lipodystrophy, DHEA in combination with indomethacin reduces lipodystrophy caused by HIV drugs.


Insulin (claim 5): DHEA supplementation improves insulin-sensitivity in post-menopausal women; it reduces the severity of glucocorticoid-induced diabetes. In rodents DHEA prevents diabetes-induced nerve damage, improves insulin secretion, and controls hyperglycemia. It is therefore plausible, though not proven, that DHEA supplementation can prevent or ameliorate diabetes in general.


Anti-aging (claim 6): The claim that a 50% increase in lifespan can be achieved with DHEA supplementation appears to be a misinterpretation of experiments with tumor-prone mice. There are no clinical studies that directly show whether or not DHEA use increases longevity (these would take decades to carry out). However, if DHEA can ameliorate various ailments of aging (such as heart disease), then it must inevitably increase longevity.


Hair (claims 7 and 21): DHEA supplementation causes growth of pubic hair in women with atrichia pubis (lack of pubic hair); it is reasonable to suppose that it would do so in men, as well. DHEA can also promote facial hair growth in some women (11% in one study). Although a correlation between DHEA-S levels and male pattern baldness has been shown in young men, no clinical study has shown that DHEA supplementation causes hair loss. In any case, if any such tendency existed, it could be counteracted by drugs such as dutasteride or finasteride.


Skin (claims 8 and 22): Improvement in skin pigmentation has been shown in elderly women given DHEA supplements at 50 mg/day. DHEA also increases acne in some women, but not in men — presumably because women’s testosterone levels were elevated but men’s weren’t.

Energy (claim 9): DHEA supplementation at 200-500 mg/day significantly reduced fatigue in HIV patients.


Immunity (claim 10): In mice, a single injection of DHEA under the skin protected the animals from viral, bacterial and parasitic infections. Long-term oral ingestion also provided protection. (4-Androstenediol worked even better than DHEA.) This effect has not been studied in humans.


Cognition (claim 11): Memory enhancement has been shown in animal studies of DHEA supplementation; the few human studies that have been done have produced contradictory results. In rats DHEA supplementation causes an increase in newly formed cells in the hippocampus (a memory center in the brain). It is reasonable to conclude that DHEA supplements have the capacity to improve memory in humans.


Mood (claims 12 and 23): DHEA supplementation at 30-90 mg/day produces improvement of depression and anxiety in schizophrenic patients, and of depression and mood in non-schizophrenic patients. DHEA supplementation at 200-500 mg/day significantly improved mood in HIV patients. As for mania (claim 23): three cases have been reported of manic episodes in individuals who happened to be using DHEA supplements; in at least two of these cases the patients had a history of mania before they ever used DHEA. Statistically, it would seem that mania is much more likely to occur in people who don’t take DHEA than in those who do.


Bone (claim 13): Improvement of bone turnover occurred in elderly women treated at 50 mg/day of DHEA for 6 months. Improvement in men was seen in some studies and not in others. It is reasonable to conclude that given high enough doses, DHEA supplementation would improve bone strength in both sexes, particularly where levels of estrogens and testosterone are low — as they are in people more than 40 years old.


Lupus (claim 14): At 200 mg/day DHEA reduced the incidence of lupus flares.


HRT (claims 15 and 25): It has been shown that in older men DHEA supplementation at 100 mg/day increases estrogen levels but not testosterone levels. In older women this dosage produces large increases in both estrogen and testosterone. Contrary to popular notions, these hormonal increases are, by and large, beneficial rather than harmful for both sexes — they improve the condition of skin, bone, and other tissues, improve cognition, and contribute to libido.


Sex (claim 16): DHEA supplementation improves libido and other sexual measures in elderly women, women with sexual dysfunction, and younger men and women with hormone deficiencies. DHEA also decreases erectile dysfunction. Libido studies are lacking for normal young men and women; but libido enhancements are entirely possible, since DHEA supplements increase estrogen levels in males, and both estrogen and testosterone levels in females. (Both estrogens and testosterone contribute to libido.)


Fertility (claims 17 and 26): DHEA supplementation at 80 mg/day improves lackluster responses to ovarian stimulation. General effects on fertility have not been studied. The effects of DHEA on menstruation have not been studied except in anorexic women — DHEA restores menstruation where it has been suppressed by the ailment.


Prostate (claim 24): The idea that DHEA supplementation might cause prostate enlargement is based on theory, not observation. Higher DHEA levels in the blood correlate with higher levels of estrogens and of IGF-1 (a growth factor); higher IGF-1 levels correlate with prostate enlargement; so do estrogen levels in some studies, but in other studies they don’t. Theories as tenuous as this one are not worth the hot air they’re made of.


Other ailments (claim 18): Rheumatoid arthritis — a small human study showed no benefit from 200 mg/day of DHEA; but a mouse study did show benefit in delaying and decreasing collagen-induced arthritis. Multiple sclerosis — DHEA treatment resulted in significantly reduced incidence and severity of a mouse disease similar to MS. Parkinson’s — Rat experiments suggest that DHEA treatment can protect the neurons whose degeneration characterizes this disease. Allergies — Mice with atopic dermatitis or dust mite allergies showed signs of benefitting from DHEA therapy. Herpes — Mice treated with DHEA were significantly protected from herpes virus type 2 encephalitis infections. Inflammatory bowel disease — no clinical studies have been done. Hormonal imbalance — this is a nonsense term with no clear medical meaning.


General claims (claim 27): These claims are merely propaganda generated by people who want more control over other people’s lives. The medical profession in particular tends to favor eliminating public access to nutritional supplements like DHEA, because this would make people more dependent upon physicians for treatment of ailments. Every ailment that is successfully treated with DHEA represents money that bypasses the medical profession.

Usage

Doses of 20-50 mg/day will usually restore DHEA and DHEA-S levels in the blood to youthful levels in men over 40 years old. For women the range is typically 10-30 mg/day. However, there is no particular reason to think that youthful levels are optimum levels for people of any age. The levels of hormones and other substances produced by the body evolved in response to harsh conditions that no longer exist for most human beings. It would be naive to expect that these aspects of our physiology are optimum under all conditions, especially medical conditions such as disease and aging. DHEA dosages of up to 3000 mg/day have been used in various studies, sometimes with beneficial results that would not have been achieved with lower doses. It goes without saying that the long-term effects of any DHEA dosage have not been determined, but the fact that DHEA is made by the body in substantial amounts (at least in younger people) suggests that any toxicity it might have in the body must be extremely low.

Bioavailability and half-life

The oral bioavailability of DHEA is in dispute — some say it is as low as 3%, some say it is “excellent”, others say it is “variable”. The half-life of DHEA in the body is also debatable — measurements range from 15 minutes to 24 hours. The most reasonable interpretation of these figures is that both the bioavailability and half-life are highly variable, and that they depend upon the physical form of DHEA used, and upon conditions in the digestive tract and in the body. Variations in these parameters could explain the inconsistent results that have been obtained in clinical studies of DHEA. If so, then we should take the positive studies as the measure of DHEA’s potential benefits, and then attempt to achieve this potential by improving bioavailability and half-life. Bioavailability can be markedly improved by micronization. Both bioavailability and half-life can be altered by the presence of other substances that share the same enzyme systems for absorption or metabolism (see next section).

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Here we go.........

this does not have to be an inflammatory thread. but your dudes can easily take it that way so be careful

 

[Patrick Arnold]

About DHEA
Synonyms: dehydroepiandrosterone, 3beta-hydroxyandrost-5-en-17-one,
5-androstene-3beta-ol-17-one, prasterone
by Alvin Hashimoto
DHEA is a steroidal hormone produced by the adrenal glands in substantial amounts; it is a precursor from which the body makes testosterone, estradiol, and a number of other steroid hormones. DHEA is thought to have other functions, but little is known about them. As a precursor, however, DHEA has a significant impact on the body’s production of hormones and other substances, which in turn have profound physiological effects. The sulfate of DHEA, “DHEA-S”, seems to serve as a reservoir for DHEA in the blood.

DHEA was discovered in 1931. An inkling of its possible significance in aging was uncovered in the 1950s when it was found that blood DHEA levels decline dramatically as people age. The possibility that supplementing with DHEA might therefore counteract aging led to its marketing as a nutritional supplement in the early 1980s. In 1985, the U.S. FDA, acting in typical totalitarian fashion, banned products containing DHEA. Supplement companies then began selling wild yam extract, claiming that the extract is converted to DHEA in the body; however, very little such conversion actually takes place in humans. DHEA reemerged as a supplement in 1994, with passage of the federal Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act, and has been immensely popular ever since.

Typical claims made for DHEA

(1) Cancer: Reduces risk of cancers of the breast, prostate, lung, colon, liver, and skin
(2) Heart: Prevents heart disease and atherosclerosis, reduces cortisol (a promoter of heart disease)
(3) Muscle: Builds lean muscle mass, decreases breakdown of muscle tissue
(4) Fat: Reduces body fat; prevents lipodystrophy due to HIV protease inhibitors, reduces cortisol (a promoter of visceral fat)
(5) Insulin: Increases insulin-producing cells and insulin sensitivity; prevents diabetes and diabetes-induced damage
(6) Anti-aging: Increases life span by 50%
(7) Hair: Causes growth of pubic hair in people who lack it. (Not everyone would consider this a benefit, but some do.)
(8) Skin: Improves thickness, color, wrinkles, elasticity, collagen, puffiness under eyes
(9) Energy: Improves thermogenesis and energy production; treats chronic fatigue syndrome
(10) Immunity: Improves immunity and response to vaccination; treats infectious diseases
(11) Cognition: Improves memory; protects brain cells from neurotoxic neurotransmitters (e.g., NMDA)
(12) Mood: Decreases depression, anxiety, and stress; improves mood
(13) Bone: Decreases bone loss, increases in bone density
(14) Lupus: Relieves lupus erythematosus
(15) HRT: Is an effective hormone replacement therapy for men and women
(16) Sex: Increases libido, improves sexual function
(17) Fertility: Increases fertility in women; could inhibit menstruation in pre-menopausal women
(18) Other ailments: Relieves arthritis, Parkinson’s, multiple sclerosis, inflammatory bowel disease, thyroid problems, herpes infections, allergies, and hormone imbalances

Typical claims made against DHEA

(19) Cancer: Could stimulate the growth of previously dormant tumors
(20) Heart: Causes cardiac arrhythmia
(21) Hair: Causes growth of body or facial hair, scalp hair loss
(22) Skin: Causes acne and seborrhea
(23) Mood: Causes irritability and aggression; causes severe mania
(24) Prostate: Causes prostate enlargement, difficulty urinating
(25) HRT: Increases estrogen levels in men, but not testosterone levels
(26) Fertility: Increases fertility in women; could inhibit menstruation in pre-menopausal women
(27) General claims: “Hardly anything is known about DHEA”; “problems associated with hormone use might not appear until years later”; “it’s the snake oil of the ’90s”; “should be classified as an investigational drug and used only in clinical research”; “doses greater than 5 mg should require a prescription”

The known facts about DHEA

Although there have been many studies of DHEA in recent years, the great majority of them have merely looked for correlations between medical problems and DHEA levels in the body. Such studies are essentially useless for practical purposes — they do not tell us whether low DHEA levels cause the problems and they tell us nothing about DHEA supplements as treatments for them. Of the remaining studies, most are tissue-culture experiments that, again, tell us little about DHEA supplementation. A few supplementation experiments have been done in rodents, but DHEA levels in rodents are negligible compared to those in humans — suggesting that the effects of DHEA may be different in these animals. A small number of human clinical studies exist and do shed a wan light on the subject, but the results are often contradictory and there is disagreement about interpretation. From this pathetic performance by the medical research world, we will draw what conclusions we can.

But first it should be noted that DHEA’s oral bioavailability and persistence in the body are still uncertain (see “Bioavailability and half-life” below). Perhaps the muddle in which DHEA clinical research finds itself is due to inconsistent absorption and hidden complexities in the body’s hormonal regulation. Hence, when a study shows no benefit from DHEA supplementation, we cannot tell whether this is due to a failure of DHEA or merely poor bioavailability or misinterpreted measurements of hormone levels. On the other hand, it is much harder to argue with a reasonably well-performed study that does show a benefit. Therefore, when there is disagreement between different studies, it makes sense to give greater credence to the studies that show benefits than to those that don’t, and this policy will be followed in the summary below.

Cancer (claims 1 and 19): DHEA supplementation appears to protect most tissues (except liver) from cancer initiation, but it may increase the growth rate of steroid-sensitive tumors if they already exist. Animal experiments suggest that DHEA might increase the risk of acquiring liver cancer.


Heart disease (claims 2 and 20): DHEA supplementation improves cholesterol and other lipid patterns in women when used for 12 months, and decreases cortisol levels in healthy older men and women. (Cortisol levels are associated with risk of heart disease.) In rodents, DHEA reduces atherosclerotic plaques. Although proper clinical studies are lacking, it would be reasonable to suppose that DHEA supplementation is of use in preventing or reversing heart disease in humans. The claim that DHEA causes cardiac arrhythmia (claim 20), is based on a single case in which a man who was taking DHEA experienced arrhythmia; in view of the fact that lots of people who don’t take DHEA experience arrhythmia, it would appear that people who use DHEA are less likely to experience arrhythmia than those who don’t.


Muscle (claim 3): Does DHEA supplementation promote muscle growth? Studies in rats suggest that it does. Several small human studies directly contradict each other on this point. In one study, however, 50 mg/day of DHEA produced a 10-20% increase of IGF-1 in both sexes. (IGF-1 is a highly anabolic growth factor that stimulates the growth of muscle and other tissues.) It seems likely that at sufficient dosages DHEA would have anabolic effects on muscle tissue.


Fat (claim 4): The very few studies that have been done in humans (at up to 1600 mg/day) have given contradictory results. In rats, on the other hand, DHEA supplementation lowered fat consumption and prevented age-related increases in body fat. High doses of DHEA (>1000 mg) do cause an increase in metabolic rate in humans, and fat reduction would be the expected result. As for lipodystrophy, DHEA in combination with indomethacin reduces lipodystrophy caused by HIV drugs.


Insulin (claim 5): DHEA supplementation improves insulin-sensitivity in post-menopausal women; it reduces the severity of glucocorticoid-induced diabetes. In rodents DHEA prevents diabetes-induced nerve damage, improves insulin secretion, and controls hyperglycemia. It is therefore plausible, though not proven, that DHEA supplementation can prevent or ameliorate diabetes in general.


Anti-aging (claim 6): The claim that a 50% increase in lifespan can be achieved with DHEA supplementation appears to be a misinterpretation of experiments with tumor-prone mice. There are no clinical studies that directly show whether or not DHEA use increases longevity (these would take decades to carry out). However, if DHEA can ameliorate various ailments of aging (such as heart disease), then it must inevitably increase longevity.


Hair (claims 7 and 21): DHEA supplementation causes growth of pubic hair in women with atrichia pubis (lack of pubic hair); it is reasonable to suppose that it would do so in men, as well. DHEA can also promote facial hair growth in some women (11% in one study). Although a correlation between DHEA-S levels and male pattern baldness has been shown in young men, no clinical study has shown that DHEA supplementation causes hair loss. In any case, if any such tendency existed, it could be counteracted by drugs such as dutasteride or finasteride.


Skin (claims 8 and 22): Improvement in skin pigmentation has been shown in elderly women given DHEA supplements at 50 mg/day. DHEA also increases acne in some women, but not in men — presumably because women’s testosterone levels were elevated but men’s weren’t.

Energy (claim 9): DHEA supplementation at 200-500 mg/day significantly reduced fatigue in HIV patients.


Immunity (claim 10): In mice, a single injection of DHEA under the skin protected the animals from viral, bacterial and parasitic infections. Long-term oral ingestion also provided protection. (4-Androstenediol worked even better than DHEA.) This effect has not been studied in humans.


Cognition (claim 11): Memory enhancement has been shown in animal studies of DHEA supplementation; the few human studies that have been done have produced contradictory results. In rats DHEA supplementation causes an increase in newly formed cells in the hippocampus (a memory center in the brain). It is reasonable to conclude that DHEA supplements have the capacity to improve memory in humans.


Mood (claims 12 and 23): DHEA supplementation at 30-90 mg/day produces improvement of depression and anxiety in schizophrenic patients, and of depression and mood in non-schizophrenic patients. DHEA supplementation at 200-500 mg/day significantly improved mood in HIV patients. As for mania (claim 23): three cases have been reported of manic episodes in individuals who happened to be using DHEA supplements; in at least two of these cases the patients had a history of mania before they ever used DHEA. Statistically, it would seem that mania is much more likely to occur in people who don’t take DHEA than in those who do.


Bone (claim 13): Improvement of bone turnover occurred in elderly women treated at 50 mg/day of DHEA for 6 months. Improvement in men was seen in some studies and not in others. It is reasonable to conclude that given high enough doses, DHEA supplementation would improve bone strength in both sexes, particularly where levels of estrogens and testosterone are low — as they are in people more than 40 years old.


Lupus (claim 14): At 200 mg/day DHEA reduced the incidence of lupus flares.


HRT (claims 15 and 25): It has been shown that in older men DHEA supplementation at 100 mg/day increases estrogen levels but not testosterone levels. In older women this dosage produces large increases in both estrogen and testosterone. Contrary to popular notions, these hormonal increases are, by and large, beneficial rather than harmful for both sexes — they improve the condition of skin, bone, and other tissues, improve cognition, and contribute to libido.


Sex (claim 16): DHEA supplementation improves libido and other sexual measures in elderly women, women with sexual dysfunction, and younger men and women with hormone deficiencies. DHEA also decreases erectile dysfunction. Libido studies are lacking for normal young men and women; but libido enhancements are entirely possible, since DHEA supplements increase estrogen levels in males, and both estrogen and testosterone levels in females. (Both estrogens and testosterone contribute to libido.)


Fertility (claims 17 and 26): DHEA supplementation at 80 mg/day improves lackluster responses to ovarian stimulation. General effects on fertility have not been studied. The effects of DHEA on menstruation have not been studied except in anorexic women — DHEA restores menstruation where it has been suppressed by the ailment.


Prostate (claim 24): The idea that DHEA supplementation might cause prostate enlargement is based on theory, not observation. Higher DHEA levels in the blood correlate with higher levels of estrogens and of IGF-1 (a growth factor); higher IGF-1 levels correlate with prostate enlargement; so do estrogen levels in some studies, but in other studies they don’t. Theories as tenuous as this one are not worth the hot air they’re made of.


Other ailments (claim 18): Rheumatoid arthritis — a small human study showed no benefit from 200 mg/day of DHEA; but a mouse study did show benefit in delaying and decreasing collagen-induced arthritis. Multiple sclerosis — DHEA treatment resulted in significantly reduced incidence and severity of a mouse disease similar to MS. Parkinson’s — Rat experiments suggest that DHEA treatment can protect the neurons whose degeneration characterizes this disease. Allergies — Mice with atopic dermatitis or dust mite allergies showed signs of benefitting from DHEA therapy. Herpes — Mice treated with DHEA were significantly protected from herpes virus type 2 encephalitis infections. Inflammatory bowel disease — no clinical studies have been done. Hormonal imbalance — this is a nonsense term with no clear medical meaning.


General claims (claim 27): These claims are merely propaganda generated by people who want more control over other people’s lives. The medical profession in particular tends to favor eliminating public access to nutritional supplements like DHEA, because this would make people more dependent upon physicians for treatment of ailments. Every ailment that is successfully treated with DHEA represents money that bypasses the medical profession.

Usage

Doses of 20-50 mg/day will usually restore DHEA and DHEA-S levels in the blood to youthful levels in men over 40 years old. For women the range is typically 10-30 mg/day. However, there is no particular reason to think that youthful levels are optimum levels for people of any age. The levels of hormones and other substances produced by the body evolved in response to harsh conditions that no longer exist for most human beings. It would be naive to expect that these aspects of our physiology are optimum under all conditions, especially medical conditions such as disease and aging. DHEA dosages of up to 3000 mg/day have been used in various studies, sometimes with beneficial results that would not have been achieved with lower doses. It goes without saying that the long-term effects of any DHEA dosage have not been determined, but the fact that DHEA is made by the body in substantial amounts (at least in younger people) suggests that any toxicity it might have in the body must be extremely low.

Bioavailability and half-life

The oral bioavailability of DHEA is in dispute — some say it is as low as 3%, some say it is “excellent”, others say it is “variable”. The half-life of DHEA in the body is also debatable — measurements range from 15 minutes to 24 hours. The most reasonable interpretation of these figures is that both the bioavailability and half-life are highly variable, and that they depend upon the physical form of DHEA used, and upon conditions in the digestive tract and in the body. Variations in these parameters could explain the inconsistent results that have been obtained in clinical studies of DHEA. If so, then we should take the positive studies as the measure of DHEA’s potential benefits, and then attempt to achieve this potential by improving bioavailability and half-life. Bioavailability can be markedly improved by micronization. Both bioavailability and half-life can be altered by the presence of other substances that share the same enzyme systems for absorption or metabolism (see next section).

whats next cathy?

a copy and paste job informing us how kennedy was assasinated?

dunno what we would do without you

(yes i am a ****. i can't help it)

 

[FitnFirm]

Interaction with other substances

A list of some of the substances that may alter DHEA’s metabolism, bioavailability



Substances metabolized by the CYP3A4 enzyme
The following list of substances may interact with each other in the body because they are all metabolized by the enzyme CYP3A4 (aka “cytochrome p450 3A4”). Various kinds of interactions can occur, depending upon the substances involved. These can result in changes in bioavailability, half-life, and the levels of these and other substances in the body.

GENERIC NAME (BRAND NAME)

Alprazolam (Xanax)
Amiodarone (Cordarone)
Amitriptyline (Elavil)
Astemizole (Hismanal)
Budesonide (Rhinocort)
Bupropion (Wellbutrin)
Buspirone (BuSpar)
Caffeine
Carbamazepine (Tegretol)
Cerivastatin (Baycol)
Cisapride (Propulsid)
Clarithromycin (Biaxin)
Clomipramine (Anafranil)
Clonazepam (Klonopin)
Codeine
Cyclosporine (Sandimmune)
Dexamethasone
Dextromethorphan
DHEA
Diazepam (Valium)
Diltiazem (Cardizem)
Disopyramide (Norpace)
Donepezil (Aricept)
Doxycycline (Vibramycin)
Erythromycin
Estradiol (Estrace)
Ethinylestradiol (Estinyl)
Felodipine (Plendil)
Fluoxetine (Prozac)
Imipramine (Tofranil)
Indinavir
Itraconazole
Ketoconazole
Lansoprazole (Prevacid)
Lidocaine (Xylocaine)
Loratadine (Claritin)
Lovastatin (Mevacor)
Midazolam (Versed)
Nefazodone (Serzone)
Nelfinavir
Nicardipine (Cardene)
Nifedipine (Procardia)
Nisoldipine (Sular)
Norethindrone (Micronor)
Omeprazole (Prilosec)
Ondansetron (Zofran)
Orphenadrine (Norflex)
Paroxetine (Paxil)
Progesterone
Propafenone (Rhythmol)
Quetiapine (Seroquel)
Quinidine
Rifampin (Rifadin)
Ritonavir
Sertraline (Zoloft)
Sibutramine (Meridia)
Sildenafil (Viagra)
Simvastatin (Zocor)
Tacrolimus (Prograf)
Tamoxifen (Nolvadex)
Terfenadine (Seldane)
Testosterone
Theophylline
Trazodone (Desyrel)
Triazolam (Halcion)
Troleandmycin
Venlafaxine (Effexor)
Verapamil (Calan)
Vinblastine (Velban)
(R)-Warfarin
Zolpidem (Ambien)

 

[FitnFirm]

whats next cathy?

a copy and paste job informing us how kennedy was assasinated?

dunno what we would do without you

(yes i am a ****. i can't help it)

Gee Pat not everyone is a chemist or a scientist in this world, those of us who are not learn by reading. Ive never claimed to be a chemist, but I do know how to research.



-Kathy

 

[Patrick Arnold]

but what i don't understand is that it appears primordial professor is playing it safe with dhea in his transdermal yet the fact that he is selling a transdermal in the first place is probably gonna attract more FDA concern than if he put a more controversial hormone in there.

there is no discrepancy when it comes to transdermals, the FDA has set a big precedent on their illegality and many companies have been snagged. DSHEA is unambiguous when it comes oral being the only approved method of delivering a compound systemically

the way i see it, if you are gonna have the balls to do a transdermal you might as well put something really effective in there like adrenosterone or 1,4-ADD.

But everyone has their individual rationale for stuff

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Gee Pat not everyone is a chemist or a scientist in this world, those of us who are not learn by reading. Ive never claimed to be a chemist, but I do know how to research.



-Kathy

thanks to google everyone can be a researcher

god help us!! :-0

 

[BigSmith]

Off topic. Has anyone ever heard of company called "Ball, Inc" ?

 

[FitnFirm]

Well sometimes in life we dont understand "WHY" Its ok ! It happens and we move on .

 

[FitnFirm]

thanks to google everyone can be a researcher

god help us!! :-0

Whats the difference wether it comes from a medical journal, a published study or an internet search engine, its all information that originated from the same place you get it Patrick.

 

[FitnFirm]

Supplemental DHEA and some of the possibilities
by over 4000 scientific studies conducted throughout the world over the last 40 years.​

In a study at the University of California School of Medicine, La Jolla, DHEA was given to 13 men and 17 women aged 40 to 70 years. The subjects took either 50 mg. DHEA or a placebo every day for 6 months. Results showed that 84% of the women and 67% of the men taking DHEA showed "a remarkable increase in perceived physical and psychological well-being" as compared to the placebo group. The subjects taking DHEA reported an improved ability to deal with stressful situations, increased energy, deeper sleep, improved mood and more relaxed feelings.

Dr. William Regelson, MD, a worldwide leading expert on hormones in health and disease says DHEA is the "superstar of the super hormones" and that DHEA "actually makes you look, feel and think better."

Dr. Arthur Schwartz from Temple University believes that DHEA shows promise as an anti-cancer agent and has found that DHEA protects laboratory animals from cancers of the breast, lung, colon, liver, skin, and lymphatic tissue.

DHEA has been linked to a reduction in fear. It has been noted that it operates as an anti-glucocorticoid. The negative physiological process of fear is dependent on activity in the hippocampus, which is known to be dense in glucocorticoid receptors.

DHEA replacement therapy has been shown to reduce the rate of breast cancer by 73% in a study where rats where given a mammary cancer-inducing substance called DMBA. The breast cancer rate in control animals remained at 95% compared to 27% for those with DHEA supplementation.

DHEA has been shown to significantly enhance immune function. In a study by SS Yen, with 9 health men with an average age of 63 years old taking 50mg. per day of DHEA orally over a 20 week period, post DHEA immune function was significantly enhanced. Levels of 13 different immune agents were increased by 20 to 62%.

DHEA supplements have been shown to increase energy levels, enhance memory and cognitive functions, reduce the ill effects of stress, improve immunity to diseases (including cancer), decrease body fat, enhance sex drive and possibly even extend life, improve mood.

In several animal models, DHEA was shown to provide 100% protection against the potentially lethal effects of stress on the immune system. In recent human studies, DHEA has been shown to significantly activate immune function and DHEA has powerful immuno-enhancing properties.

DHEA has been called the "ultimate antioxidant" and it has been suggested that DHEA can block cancer during its early stages in animals.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Aging
The body's production of DHEA drops from about 30 mg at age 20 to less than 6 mg per day at age 80. According to Dr. William Regelson of the Medical College of Virginia, DHEA is "one of the best biological bio-markers for chronological age."

DHEA levels are directly related to mortality (the probability of dying) in humans. In a 12-year study of over 240 men aged 50 to 79 years, researchers found that DHEA levels were inversely correlated with mortality, both from heart disease and from all causes. This finding suggests that DHEA-S (DHEA sulfate) level measurements can become a standard diagnostic predictor of disease, mortality and life span. Furthermore, if animal results hold true, supplemental DHEA may prevent disease, reduce mortality, and extend life span in humans.

Brain Function
Dr. Eugene Roberts found that very low concentrations of DHEA were found to "increase the number of neurons, their ability to establish contacts, and their differentiation" in cell cultures. He also found that DHEA also enhanced long-term memory in mice undergoing avoidance training. It may play a similar role in human brain function.

Alzheimer's Disease
Evidence increasingly suggests that DHEA is essential in maintaining the function of brain cells. Neurologist speculate that DHEA supplementation in humans may be an important ingredient both in slowing the progression of Alzheimer's and in treating the sort of degenerative memory disorders that often arise in old age.

NEW YORK (Reuters Health) -November 21, 2002

Two hormones are roughly equal in terms of helping women with anorexia nervosa rebuild their bones, but one may help to restore their mental health as well, study findings show.
One of the hormones, DHEA, seemed to have a positive effect on psychological symptoms among anorexic women, including body image concerns and attitudes toward eating, researchers report in the November issue of the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism.

Nearly half of all people with anorexia experience early bone loss and bone fractures. Young women with anorexia have low levels of the hormone estrogen, which helps keep bones strong, so one approach to improving bone density has been to prescribe hormone replacement therapy (HRT). However, the evidence to support the use of HRT in women with anorexia has been mixed.

There are some signs that low levels of another type of hormone, DHEA, or dehydroepiandrosterone, also weaken bones in anorexia. Preliminary research has suggested that DHEA supplements may improve bone health in women with anorexia.

In the new study, Dr. Catherine M. Gordon of Children's Hospital in Boston, Massachusetts and colleagues compared HRT with DHEA in 61 young women who had anorexia nervosa. The women were randomly assigned to take one of the hormone treatments each day.

Over the course of a year, women in both groups experienced an increase in bone mineral density, but the increase was mainly due to the weight the women gained. Both treatments also seemed to reduce bone destruction, or resorption.

Gordon's team did detect signs that DHEA not only slows the destruction of bone but also promotes its growth. This difference suggests a "theoretical advantage of DHEA over standard estrogen/progestin," according to the report, although the researchers point out that bone density did not differ between the groups after one year of treatment.

The investigators found that women taking DHEA experienced a decrease in several psychological symptoms related to anorexia. In the DHEA group, concerns about body image declined 24%, unhealthy attitudes toward eating dropped 26% and anxiety decreased 12%.

Based on the findings, the authors conclude that DHEA "may help reverse some of the emotional disturbances associated with the disease."

SOURCE: Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism 2002;87:4935-4941.

Other potential benefits of supplemental DHEA noted by researchers:

Improved immune system
Great ability to cope with stressful events
Elevated mood
Feeling of well-being
Decreased fat
Lift in energy
Making bodies leaner
More relaxed feeling
Improvement in concentration
Promotes deeper and more restorative sleep
Increases muscle strength and physical mobility

Also, DHEA is being investigated for possible treatments of:

Osteoporosis
Epstein-barrviral infections
Chronic fatigue Syndrome
Depression
Menopause
Herpes
Aids
Cancer
Anti-obesity
Diabetes
Lupus


Dosage for DHEA

Daily dosages vary from 5 to 10 mg to as much as 2000 mg. Generally suggested dosage is 25 to 50 mg. DHEA supplement taken in the morning before breakfast for men and 25 mg for women. It is generally suggested that the proper dosage would be that amount to bring blood DHEA and DHEA-S measurements towards young-adult (around 20 yr. old) level. These blood tests can be done by your physician.

 

[FitnFirm]

Off topic. Has anyone ever heard of company called "Ball, Inc" ?

I've heard of Ball & Chain Inc. Ball, Inc. must be new

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Whats the difference wether it comes from a medical journal, a published study or an internet search engine, its all information that originated from the same place you get it Patrick.

i have a trained critical eye that is able to better differentiate solid facts from misinformation. I am not perfect but I can do a good job.

Many people that are not trained and experienced in sciences cannot see the difference. That is the danger of the internet.

yes the internet is wonderful and has the potential for making our lives much better. But it has its downside too

not that anything you posted was inaccurate. it was actually good info. but i think you just lucked out babe

 

[FitnFirm]

I think Dr. D mentioned this study, I havent found the whole study but here is a quick synopsis of the benefits it claims on fat & muscle:




WEIGHT CONTROL

One source states that "one of the most exciting benefits of DHEA is its ability to burn fat and help keep it off by converting fat to muscle." Instead of storing calories as fat, DHEA aids in burning calories for energy. Another source claims that this finding may be one of the "most significant finds in weight control of this century," because no matter what you eat, weight loss still occurs.

How does this happen? According to one doctor, DHEA appears to "create a stabilizing effect on all body systems." Instead of weight loss "due to the breakdown of lean muscle tissue or fluid loss," DHEA is claimed to directly help the body build lean muscle tissue. Apparently DHEA blocks G6PD (glucose-6-phosphate-dehyrogenase), the major enzyme responsible for the production of fat tissue as well as cancer cells. Therefore by blocking G6PD, DMEA blocks the production of these two detrimental conditions.

 

[FitnFirm]

i have a trained critical eye that is able to better differentiate solid facts from misinformation. I am not perfect but I can do a good job.

Many people that are not trained and experienced in sciences cannot see the difference. That is the danger of the internet.

yes the internet is wonderful and has the potential for making our lives much better. But it has its downside too

not that anything you posted was inaccurate. it was actually good info. but i think you just lucked out babe

I didnt luck out, I searched until I found good, solid information. I differentiated Kiss Kiss

 

[ReaperX]

whats next cathy?

a copy and paste job informing us how kennedy was assasinated?

dunno what we would do without you

(yes i am a ****. i can't help it)

The kennedy thing was probably a CIA job.

 

[Eric Potratz]

Since people have been talkin DHEA alot i have been looking up studies. Specifically to see what metabolic pathways it follows in the body

In men, something rather odd is seen. DHEA and its sulfate increase alot and so does the downstream DHT metabolite 5alpha-androstane-3alpha-17beta-diol (5alpha-Adiol). Thats about it though

Now if you know your steroid pathways (almost no one here really does offhand i am sure) you might have noticed something odd about the above factoid. Thats cuz for DHEA to go to 5alpha-Adiol it has to go through stuff like androstenedione, testosterone, DHT etc. Yet these hormones are not elevated in the blood. Just the end metabolite is

This tells us that DHEA must be metabolized extensively in certain target tissues. In other words these tissues will take in DHEA and then spit out 5alpha-Adiol. In between they do with the intermediate horomones whatever it is that tissue does with the hormones (activate receptors, signal relevant physiological processess etc).]

Yep, we’ve known about the benefit of dermal DHEA conversion for some time… but I’m glad you’re learning about it and eager to tell the members all about it…. ;-)

Fortunately I’m quite versed in the steroid pathways myself, so let me set a couple things strait …

There are actually 3 main 5-alpha reduced metabolites from DHEA – 5stane-Adiol, 5stane-dione, and Androsterone. (from topical DHEA administration)

Secondly, DHEA does not have to be metabolized to androstenedione, testosterone, DHT to reach 5a-Adiol. It can convert to 5stane-Adiol strait from 5-Adiol itself, via the 5a-reductase enzyme. Same thing for 5stane-Dione.

(Androsterone must be converted to either one of these metabolites first)

What this tells us is that DHEA is being rapidly converted to Adiol and Adione, which is where DHEA gets most of its strength and muscle building effects. This conversion is most pronounced in the topical delivery of DHEA because the skin is highly concentrated in 3HSD, 17HSD, and 5a-reductase. Therefore, any DHEA that passes the skin is rapidly converted to the downstream hormones.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/82/8/2403

So what’s all the DHEA concern about anyway? You thinking about tryin’ some Dermacrine?

but what i don't understand is that it appears primordial professor is playing it safe with dhea in his transdermal yet the fact that he is selling a transdermal in the first place is probably gonna attract more FDA concern than if he put a more controversial hormone in there.

there is no discrepancy when it comes to transdermals, the FDA has set a big precedent on their illegality and many companies have been snagged. DSHEA is unambiguous when it comes oral being the only approved method of delivering a compound systemically

the way i see it, if you are gonna have the balls to do a transdermal you might as well put something really effective in there like adrenosterone or 1,4-ADD.

But everyone has their individual rationale for stuff

FYI, the legal status of topical’s is outside of the DSHEA, and I suppose if I gave you anymore details about the legality and FDA loophole’s it would inspire you to conjure up a topical of your own eh?

-Pp

 

[FitnFirm]

Dermacrine sounds like a great product! Good luck with it !

 

[neoborn]

LOL....:thumbsup:

Much Love Biggie / AX

Neoborn

 

[Outside Backer]

i read somewhere i think on intensemuscle.com or maybe animal boards back in the day

that there was a way to convert dhea to straight test before putting it into the body is this true

 

[pistonpump]

but what i don't understand is that it appears primordial professor is playing it safe with dhea in his transdermal yet the fact that he is selling a transdermal in the first place is probably gonna attract more FDA concern than if he put a more controversial hormone in there.

there is no discrepancy when it comes to transdermals, the FDA has set a big precedent on their illegality and many companies have been snagged. DSHEA is unambiguous when it comes oral being the only approved method of delivering a compound systemically

the way i see it, if you are gonna have the balls to do a transdermal you might as well put something really effective in there like adrenosterone or 1,4-ADD.

But everyone has their individual rationale for stuff

why exactly do they not like transdermal delivery?

Off topic but i thought 1,4-add was better absorbed orally...well whatever you say.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

I didnt luck out, I searched until I found good, solid information. I differentiated Kiss Kiss

well the last thing you posted there was a little iffy

 

[Patrick Arnold]

YFortunately I’m quite versed in the steroid pathways myself, so let me set a couple things strait …

There are actually 3 main 5-alpha reduced metabolites from DHEA – 5stane-Adiol, 5stane-dione, and Androsterone. (from topical DHEA administration)

Secondly, DHEA does not have to be metabolized to androstenedione, testosterone, DHT to reach 5a-Adiol. It can convert to 5stane-Adiol strait from 5-Adiol itself, via the 5a-reductase enzyme. Same thing for 5stane-Dione.

(Androsterone must be converted to either one of these metabolites first)
So what’s all the DHEA concern about anyway? You thinking about tryin’ some Dermacrine?



FYI, the legal status of topical’s is outside of the DSHEA, and I suppose if I gave you anymore details about the legality and FDA loophole’s it would inspire you to conjure up a topical of your own eh?

-Pp

No i am not interested in dermacrine thanks. i have access to several legal steroids that are much more effective and less problematic

You are incorrect on one vital part of your steroid pathway theory too . 5alpha-reductase will not work on delta-5,6 steroids. only delta4,5-3-keto steroids. therefore DHEA must convert to testosterone or androstenedione to undergo 5alpha reduction

Transdermals are a drug delivery system. Lots of people have been busted for selling them. Good luck on taking on the FDA with your loophole

 

[macedaddy]

Is it just me or does anyone notice this is almost the exact same way PA went about outing AX's last big project, 3-AD??? He citied some interesting studies he'd just happened to looking around for. Lots of speculation about SDNG and how it converts directly to test and 5-AD...... I know it has been covered many times that AX claims SDNG is NOT DHEA in any form, but this kinda peaks my interest.

:clap2:

 

[macedaddy]

Lets just try to keep it civil and discuss the science that is way over my head.

I agree!:whip:

 

[macedaddy]

This would actually bode well for DHEA supplementation IMO.

sounded like that to me, too! :head:

 

[macedaddy]

whats next cathy?

a copy and paste job informing us how kennedy was assasinated?

dunno what we would do without you

(yes i am a ****. i can't help it)

can we keep this thread ON-TOPIC, please?

 

[macedaddy]

it was actually good info. but i think you just lucked out babe

:jaw: GO KATHY, ITS YOUR BIRTHDAY! GONNA PARTY LIKE ITS YOUR BIRTHDAY! :clap2:

 

[macedaddy]

Dermacrine sounds like a great product! Good luck with it !

:goodpost:

 

[Patrick Arnold]

:jaw: GO KATHY, ITS YOUR BIRTHDAY! GONNA PARTY LIKE ITS YOUR BIRTHDAY! :clap2:

MOD EDIT: Getting tired of the attacks.

 

[macedaddy]

this does not have to be an inflammatory thread. but your dudes can easily take it that way so be careful

would never Dream of it, PA! Hats off to you and all your knowledge. :clap2:

 

[dsade]

I wonder how well this would work in a localized carrier, like Abliderate.

 

[macedaddy]

I wonder how well this would work in a localized carrier, like Abliderate.

Sounds like someone has a PLAN!?!?!?! :jaw:

 

[Patrick Arnold]

I wonder how well this would work in a localized carrier, like Abliderate.

for fat loss it is pretty ass backwards to use DHEA when its active metabolite 7-keto DHEA is available

its also ass backwards to use DHEA as an elevator of DHT and/or its precursors when its 5alpha reduced derivative epiandrosterone is available (and legal)

 

[dsade]

its also ass backwards to use DHEA as an elevator of DHT and/or its precursors when its 5alpha reduced derivative epiandrosterone is available (and legal)

this...I was not aware that Epiandro was legal.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

this...I was not aware that Epiandro was legal.

damn why can't i remember to keep my mouth shut