DHEA Article

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animalkrack3r

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Maybe staying away from DHEA is a good thing?

(PA's post on bb.com)

It is well known that the dhea metabolite 5-ad is an active estrogen at physiological concentrations. apparently dhea ITSELF is as well, and according to this article even NORMAL levels can have just as much estrogen effect (on ERbeta) on the body as regular estrogens do at their circulating concentration. It also bound to the androgen receptor as an antagonist.

This bodes badly for DHEA supplementation, and inclusion of an aromatase inhibitor will have NO effect on the estrogenic fallout here since we are talking about direct receptor effects







Endocrinology. 2005 Nov;146(11):4568-76. Epub 2005 Jun 30. Links
Comment in:
Endocrinology. 2005 Nov;146(11):4565-7.
Direct agonist/antagonist functions of dehydroepiandrosterone.Chen F, Knecht K, Birzin E, Fisher J, Wilkinson H, Mojena M, Moreno CT, Schmidt A, Harada S, Freedman LP, Reszka AA.
Department of Molecular Endocrinology, Merck Research Laboratories, WP26A-1000, Sumneytown Pike, West Point, Pennsylvania 19486, USA. [email protected]

Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) exhibits peak adrenal secretion in the fetus at term and around age 30 yr in the adult. Levels then progressively decline, which is associated with decreased levels of testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, and estrogen in peripheral tissues. DHEA supplementation in postmenopausal women increases bone formation and density, an effect mainly attributed to peripheral conversion to sex hormones. In this study, we tested DHEA for direct effects on the androgen (AR) and estrogen (ER) receptors. DHEA bound to AR with a Ki of 1 microM, which was associated with AR transcriptional antagonism on both the mouse mammary tumor virus and prostate-specific antigen promoters, much like the effects of bicalutamide. Unlike bicalutamide, DHEA stimulated, rather than inhibited, LNCaP cell growth, suggesting possible interaction with other hormone receptors. Indeed DHEA bound to ERalpha and ERbeta, with Ki values of 1.1 and 0.5 microM, respectively. Despite the similar binding affinities, DHEA showed preferential agonism of ERbeta with an EC50 of approximately 200 nm and maximal activation at 1 microM. With ERalpha we found 30-70% agonism at 5 microM, depending on the assay. Physiological levels of DHEA are approximately 30 nM and up to 90 nM in the prostate. DHEA at 30 nM is actually sufficient to activate ERbeta transcription to the same degree as estrogen at its circulating concentration, and additive effects are seen when the two were combined. Taken together, DHEA has the potential for physiologically relevant direct activation of ERbeta. With peak levels at term and age 30 yr, there is also a potential for antagonist effects on AR and partial agonism of ERalpha.
 
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FrankJ

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From what I understand, its useful for older people who have lower than normal DHEA.
 
Eric Potratz

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DHEA - good stuff.

Shame on PA...

A study like this probably makes DHEA look pretty damaging. To interpret the real world results you really have to have a fair understanding of ER tissue distribution, ER subtypes/isoforms, genomic and non-genomic activation, and receptor ligand cross-talk.

But lets keep things simple… (its late in the evening for me ;-)

DHEA being a ERb ligand is in fact a good thing, especially for a male where a high concentration of ERb receptors reside in the prostate. Activation of the ERb is a part of the therapeutic and anti-proliferative activity in cancer prevention, which has opposing effects with ERa. On the other hand, EDC (endocrine disrupting chemical) activation of ERb transcription is something to be concerned about… (bad transcription)

So, if your worried about DHEA promoting cancer, you really shouldn’t be. Besides, many in-vivo studies have in fact shown that DHEA supplementation can help prevent cancer.

Antagonism of the AR wont happen until a concentration reaches about 5µm… being a super-physiological concentration of about 1000x more than what is normally found in the blood even during puberty. These test-tube results shouldn’t be taken too far regarding the “anti-androgen” effect of DHEA.

In real life, DHEA is metabolized (especially when passed through the skin) to other androgens such as androstenediol, androstenedione and the 7-oxo metabolites…. All these hormones have muscle building, strength increasing, and fat burning properties…. And this coincides with the use of Dermacrine (which has a hefty dose of DHEA) Guys get stronger and they burn more fat.

-Pp


2-Difluoromethylornithine and dehydroepiandrosterone inhibit mammary tumor progression but not mammary or prostate tumor initiation in C3(1)/SV40 T/t-antigen transgenic mice.
Green JE, et al. 2001
Cancer Res 61:7449–7455

Thomas CF, Moon RD 1998 Modulation of methylnitrosourea-induced breast cancer in Sprague Dawley rats by dehydroepiandrosterone: dose-dependent inhibition, effects of limited exposure, effects on peroxisomal enzymes, and lack of effects on levels of Ha-Ras mutations.
Lubet RA, et al
Cancer Res 58:921–926

Chemoprevention of spontaneous tumorigenesis in nullizygous p53-deficient mice by dehydroepiandrosterone and its analog 16 -fluoro-5-androsten-17-one.
Perkins SN, et al 1997
Carcinogenesis 18:989–994

Cancer prevention with dehydroepiandrosterone and non-androgenic structural analogs. J
Schwartz AG, Pashko LL 1995
Cell Biochem Suppl 22:210–217

Dehydroepiandrosterone inhibits the expression of carcinogen-activating enzymes in vivo.
Ciolino H, et al 2003
Int J Cancer 105:321–325

Dehydroepiandrosterone Increases Endothelial Cell Proliferation in Vitro and Improves Endothelial Function in Vivo by Mechanisms Independent of Androgen and Estrogen Receptors
Maro R. I. et al
Baker Medical Research Institute,
 

FitnFirm

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2 year old news, are you people just finding this now ? C'mon you are not that behind I hope !
 

FitnFirm

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Shame on PA...

A study like this probably makes DHEA look pretty damaging. To interpret the real world results you really have to have a fair understanding of ER tissue distribution, ER subtypes/isoforms, genomic and non-genomic activation, and receptor ligand cross-talk.

But lets keep things simple… (its late in the evening for me ;-)

DHEA being a ERb ligand is in fact a good thing, especially for a male where a high concentration of ERb receptors reside in the prostate. Activation of the ERb is apart of the therapeutic and anti-proliferative activity in cancer prevention, which has opposing effects with ERa. On the other hand, EDC (endocrine disrupting chemical) activation of ERb transcription is something to be concerned about… (bad transcription)

So, if your worried about DHEA promoting cancer, you really shouldn’t be. Besides, many in-vivo studies have in fact shown that DHEA supplementation can help prevent cancer.

Antagonism of the AR wont happen until a concentration reaches about 5µm… being a super-physiological concentration of about 1000x more than what is normally found in the blood even during puberty. These test-tube results shouldn’t be taken too far regarding the “anti-androgen” effect of DHEA.

In real life, DHEA is metabolized (especially when passed through the skin) to other androgens such as androstenediol, androstenedione and the 7-oxo metabolites…. All these hormones have muscle building, strength increasing, and fat burning properties…. And this coincides with the use of Dermacrine (which has a hefty dose of DHEA) Guys get stronger and they burn more fat.

-Pp


2-Difluoromethylornithine and dehydroepiandrosterone inhibit mammary tumor progression but not mammary or prostate tumor initiation in C3(1)/SV40 T/t-antigen transgenic mice.
Green JE, et al. 2001
Cancer Res 61:7449–7455

Thomas CF, Moon RD 1998 Modulation of methylnitrosourea-induced breast cancer in Sprague Dawley rats by dehydroepiandrosterone: dose-dependent inhibition, effects of limited exposure, effects on peroxisomal enzymes, and lack of effects on levels of Ha-Ras mutations.
Lubet RA, et al
Cancer Res 58:921–926

Chemoprevention of spontaneous tumorigenesis in nullizygous p53-deficient mice by dehydroepiandrosterone and its analog 16 -fluoro-5-androsten-17-one.
Perkins SN, et al 1997
Carcinogenesis 18:989–994

Cancer prevention with dehydroepiandrosterone and non-androgenic structural analogs. J
Schwartz AG, Pashko LL 1995
Cell Biochem Suppl 22:210–217

Dehydroepiandrosterone inhibits the expression of carcinogen-activating enzymes in vivo.
Ciolino H, et al 2003
Int J Cancer 105:321–325

Dehydroepiandrosterone Increases Endothelial Cell Proliferation in Vitro and Improves Endothelial Function in Vivo by Mechanisms Independent of Androgen and Estrogen Receptors
Maro R. I. et al
Baker Medical Research Institute,



Who the hell are you ? Well anyway I think I like you already :D

Welcome :D
 
strategicmove

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From what I understand, its useful for older people who have lower than normal DHEA.
From what I recall, 7-Keto-DHEA is better. It appears to have all of DHEA's positives and none of its sides.

7-Keto is ia brand name for the chemical compound 3-acetyl-7-oxo-dehydroepiandros-terone, a naturally occurring DHEA metabolite mainly produced in the adrenal glands and skin, although some production occurs in the brain as well.

DHEA’s wide-ranging benefits have been documented in many clinical studies. DHEA is an anti-aging compound, unleashing a series of effects via its conversion to some 150 metabolites, each with unique actions within the body.

7-Keto DHEA (otherwise known as 7-Keto), is one of the most important DHEA metabolites. 7-Keto is a hormone metabolite that can safely enhance immune function and help cut body fat. Unlike DHEA, however, 7-Keto does not convert to estrogen and testosterone.

Studies have shown that 7-Keto does not accumulate in the body over time and has no unhealthy side effects.
 
bioman

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How does the B-triol version stack up to regular DHEA in terms of androgen synthesis and ER activation?

Using a trans version of it right now and it makes me feel groovey..man. lol
 
Eric Potratz

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Yes, 7-keto DHEA is great for fat loss, which is why we included it in our DermaTherm.

However it lacks androgenic and anabolic activity so its not too great for increasing strength or muscle gains. Remember with DHEA you do get conversion to 7-keto, as well as other androgens such as androstenediol and androstenedione… which also have beneficial effects. So I wouldn’t say 7-keto provides all the same benefits.

Bioman,

Im not sure what b-triol is…

-Pp
 
strategicmove

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Yes, 7-keto DHEA is great for fat loss, which is why we included it in our DermaTherm.

However it lacks androgenic and anabolic activity so its not too great for increasing strength or muscle gains. Remember with DHEA you do get conversion to 7-keto, as well as other androgens such as androstenediol and androstenedione… which also have beneficial effects. So I wouldn’t say 7-keto provides all the same benefits.

Bioman,

Im not sure what b-triol is…

-Pp
I do not want to kick-off a debate here, but it has been established that 7-Keto has the properties of DHEA without its nasty sides. Orally ingested at a daily dose of 200mg for six weeks, 7-Keto has been demonstrated in clinical studies to possess significant fat-incinerating properties.
 
Eric Potratz

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I do not want to kick-off a debate here, but it has been established that 7-Keto has the properties of DHEA without its nasty sides. Orally ingested at a daily dose of 200mg for six weeks, 7-Keto has been demonstrated in clinical studies to possess significant fat-incinerating properties.
Yes, 7-keto is a better fat burner than DHEA.

To be fair, DHEA doesn’t really have any nasty side effects. We sell both DHEA and 7-keto and they both have there uses and limitations.

-Pp
 
Eric Potratz

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Ah yes, the healthy rejuvenating triol… good stuff.

-Pp
 
bigschmidt821

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a pills of DHEA with 10 grams of glutamine at night along with 6grams of arginine a day does wonders for natural growth factor
 
strategicmove

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DR.D

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DHEA sux! I hope nobody ever takes that stuff! Yuck.

Oh wait, I've been taking it over 10 years and even advising others how to use it in PCT... ok it's cool. :p

Guys, don't be gullible! It sure is interesting, the timing, how these "concerns" appear now don't you think? :)
 
strategicmove

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I am personally not a DHEA fan. I would prefer 7-Keto-DHEA to DHEA anyday. Supplementing with DHEA usually requires ingesting other compounds such as Vitamin E, Selenium, Soy Isoflavones, Gamma E Tocopherol, Sesame Lignans, Lycopene Extract, Saw Palmetto Extract, Pygeum Extract, Nettle Extract, Boron, Beta-Sitosterols, Pregnelonone, and Melatonin, to optimize hormone levels and ensure DHEA's sides do not dominate.
 
bigschmidt821

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Amount per pill? 10mg, 50mg, 100mg?
100 mg works wonders

and i agree with Dr. D. He is a personal close friend of mine and he has helped me with countless questions and personal issues and has helped me very recently design a very deep intricate and crazy stack. his knowledge is great and everyone of his products he has created has never done me or any of my customers wrong.
 
DMac

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I do not want to kick-off a debate here, but it has been established that 7-Keto has the properties of DHEA without its nasty sides. Orally ingested at a daily dose of 200mg for six weeks, 7-Keto has been demonstrated in clinical studies to possess significant fat-incinerating properties.

Curious what nasty sides you mean?

DHEA is a precursor hormone, it turns into all sorts of stuff in the skin and in the body.

If you guys want to see this in more depth, and get an endocrinology education in an hour here's where you go;

Hormone Tree for hormone conversion pathways and functions.

Learned just about everything I know there (not sayin much), PP is a genius.

anyway,

7-Keto is one of the things DHEA will convert to, with 7-keto you can be 100% sure of what it will do in your body since the body doesn't convert it to anything else (except 7Beta DHEA, which is an even more powerful thermogenic).

DHEA itself can be great if you include some AI's with it to keep it from converting to estrogen.




This smiley is great:

:donut: eat me cutting cycle guys, eat me!
 
rpen22

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Hey Animal, not to derail the thread, but which of Ergo's products are your favorite? This isn't an attack, it's a real question.
 

animalkrack3r

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Hm, I really enjoy AMP and GF-Pro, The Flavors in GF-Pro taste pretty good.
 
strategicmove

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Curious what nasty sides you mean?

DHEA is a precursor hormone, it turns into all sorts of stuff in the skin and in the body.

If you guys want to see this in more depth, and get an endocrinology education in an hour here's where you go;

Hormone Tree for hormone conversion pathways and functions.

Learned just about everything I know there (not sayin much), PP is a genius.

anyway,

7-Keto is one of the things DHEA will convert to, with 7-keto you can be 100% sure of what it will do in your body since the body doesn't convert it to anything else (except 7Beta DHEA, which is an even more powerful thermogenic).

DHEA itself can be great if you include some AI's with it to keep it from converting to estrogen.




This smiley is great:

:donut: eat me cutting cycle guys, eat me!
If you read my contributions in this thread, you will realize we are saying the same thing.
 
DMac

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If you read my contributions in this thread, you will realize we are saying the same thing.
Ya I guess so, maybe I didn't read your posts as thoroughly the first time through. Well Cheers to DHEA and 7 Keto Bro.
 
EasyEJL

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DHEA sux! I hope nobody ever takes that stuff! Yuck.

Oh wait, I've been taking it over 10 years and even advising others how to use it in post cycle therapy... ok it's cool. :p

Guys, don't be gullible! It sure is interesting, the timing, how these "concerns" appear now don't you think? :)
I think that DHEA is valuable, at appropriate dosing, and that PA is way off on this one. But to me tho, this sounds like one of the "I've been smoking all my life and i'm fine, that cancer stuff is just a bunch of BS" lines.

I'm guessing that DHEA is in SDNG from the responses here :)
 
DR.D

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I think that DHEA is valuable, at appropriate dosing, and that PA is way off on this one. But to me tho, this sounds like one of the "I've been smoking all my life and i'm fine, that cancer stuff is just a bunch of BS" lines.

I'm guessing that DHEA is in SDNG from the responses here :)
This is very true! I may fall asleep tonight and never wake up, dead from the ravages of DHEA after all these years. The most abundant steroid in the human body, deadly toxic. But I doubt it E. ;) The speculations are laughable, and yes, it appears to be SDNG inspired, that was my whole point.
 
strategicmove

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What is "SDNG"?
 
EasyEJL

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This is very true! I may fall asleep tonight and never wake up, dead from the ravages of DHEA after all these years. The most abundant steroid in the human body, deadly toxic. But I doubt it E. ;) The speculations are laughable, and yes, it appears to be SDNG inspired, that was my whole point.
Saliva swallowing during sleep is apparently a major cause of death in humans, I show 100% correlation that everyone who swallows their own saliva eventually dies :)

SDNG is Superdrol Next Generation, a designer that is fully DSHEA (did I get the acronym right) compliant for retail sale. that designation means it is fairly directly food chain based - like x-factor is a relatively direct extract of a fatty acid from red meat, but original superdrol is not animal/plant sourceable.
 
Patrick Arnold

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Im just a sponsor peddling his products... and spreading knowledge when need be. ;-)

-Pp
high dose dhea gives me gyno and quite reliably. when i took its metabolite 5-AD it was even worse.

this is enough real world evidence for me
 
Patrick Arnold

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How does the B-triol version stack up to regular DHEA in terms of androgen synthesis and ER activation?

Using a trans version of it right now and it makes me feel groovey..man. lol
thats a metabolite of 7-keto. both are excellent for giving the fat burning and immune enhancing effects of dhea while avoiding the estrogenic sides
 
Patrick Arnold

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a pills of DHEA with 10 grams of glutamine at night along with 6grams of arginine a day does wonders for natural growth factor
what the hell is natural growth factor
 
Patrick Arnold

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DHEA sux! I hope nobody ever takes that stuff! Yuck.

Oh wait, I've been taking it over 10 years and even advising others how to use it in post cycle therapy... ok it's cool. :p

Guys, don't be gullible! It sure is interesting, the timing, how these "concerns" appear now don't you think? :)
are you saying that the people that did this study (and the numerous other studies on dhea and 5-ad being estrogenic) are out to get you or AX?

interesting allegation.

i am simply the messenger dude. i did not author these papers



Adly L, Hill Maggiolini M, Bonofiglio D, Pezzi V, Carpino A, Marsico S, Rago V, Vivacqua A, Picard D, Ando S.
Links
Aromatase overexpression enhances the stimulatory effects of adrenal androgens on MCF7 breast cancer cells.
Mol Cell Endocrinol. 2002 Jul 31;193(1-2):13-8.
PMID: 12160997 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
3:
Maggiolini M, Donze O, Jeannin E, Ando S, Picard D.
Links
Adrenal androgens stimulate the proliferation of breast cancer cells as direct activators of estrogen receptor alpha.
Cancer Res. 1999 Oct 1;59(19):4864-9.
PMID: 10519397 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
4:
Adams JB, Seymour-Munn K.
Links
Estrogen receptor and C19-5-ene-steroid concentrations in the nuclear fraction from human breast carcinoma tissue.
J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 1992 Nov;43(6):499-505.
PMID: 1419884 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
5:
Boccuzzi G, Brignardello E, di Monaco M, Forte C, Leonardi L, Pizzini A.
Links
Influence of dehydroepiandrosterone and 5-en-androstene-3 beta, 17 beta-diol on the growth of MCF-7 human breast cancer cells induced by 17 beta-estradiol.
Anticancer Res. 1992 May-Jun;12(3):799-803.
PMID: 1535770 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
6:
MacIndoe JH, Hinkhouse M, Woods G.
Links
Dehydroepiandrosterone and estrone 17-ketosteroid reductases in MCF-7 human breast cancer cells.
Breast Cancer Res Treat. 1990 Oct;16(3):261-72.
PMID: 1964814 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
7:
Najid A, Habrioux G.
Links
Biological effects of adrenal androgens on MCF-7 and BT-20 human breast cancer cells.
Oncology. 1990;47(3):269-74.
PMID: 2140441 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
8:
Poulin R, Poirier D, Merand Y, Theriault C, Belanger A, Labrie F.
Links
Extensive esterification of adrenal C19-delta 5-sex steroids to long-chain fatty acids in the ZR-75-1 human breast cancer cell line.
J Biol Chem. 1989 Jun 5;264(16):9335-43.
PMID: 2524485 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
9:
Simard J, Labrie F.
Links
Adrenal C19-5-ene steroids induce full estrogenic responses in rat pituitary gonadotrophs.
J Steroid Biochem. 1987 May;26(5):539-46.
PMID: 2953941 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
10:
Poulin R, Labrie F.
Links
Stimulation of cell proliferation and estrogenic response by adrenal C19-delta 5-steroids in the ZR-75-1 human breast cancer cell line.
Cancer Res. 1986 Oct;46(10):4933-7.
PMID: 2944574 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
11:
Adams JB.
Links
Control of secretion and the function of C19-delta 5-steroids of the human adrenal gland.
Mol Cell Endocrinol. 1985 Jun;41(1):1-17. Review. No abstract available.
PMID: 2989036 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
12:
Adams J, Garcia M, Rochefort H.
Links
Estrogenic effects of physiological concentrations of 5-androstene-3 beta, 17 beta-diol and its metabolism in MCF7 human breast cancer cells.
Cancer Res. 1981 Nov;41(11 Pt 1):4720-6.
PMID: 6458355 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
13:
Adams JB, Archibald L, Seymour-Munn K.
Links
Dehydroepiandrosterone and androst-5-ene-3 beta,17 beta-diol in human mammary cancer cytosolic and nuclear compartments and their relationship to estrogen receptor.
Cancer Res. 1980 Oct;40(10):3815-20.
PMID: 6449285 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
14:
Adams JB, Archibald L, Clarke C.
Links
Adrenal dehydroepiandrosterone and human mammary cancer.
Cancer Res. 1978 Nov;38(11 Pt 2):4036-40. No abstract available.
PMID: 151584 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
Patrick Arnold

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Curious what nasty sides you mean?

DHEA is a precursor hormone, it turns into all sorts of stuff in the skin and in the body.

If you guys want to see this in more depth, and get an endocrinology education in an hour here's where you go;

Hormone Tree for hormone conversion pathways and functions.

Learned just about everything I know there (not sayin much), PP is a genius.

anyway,

7-Keto is one of the things DHEA will convert to, with 7-keto you can be 100% sure of what it will do in your body since the body doesn't convert it to anything else (except 7Beta DHEA, which is an even more powerful thermogenic).

DHEA itself can be great if you include some AI's with it to keep it from converting to estrogen.
you are missing the point. dhea and 5-ad are both intrinsically estrogenic. aromatase inhibitors are useless. the only thing you could do to stop their estrogenic activation is use a SERM
 

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you are missing the point. dhea and 5-ad are both intrinsically estrogenic. aromatase inhibitors are useless. the only thing you could do to stop their estrogenic activation is use a SERM
so again, why add 6-oxo to HD Liquigels? are you calling BK stupid? :think:
 
Patrick Arnold

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its funny how this thread got moved over here after it was up over a week at bb.com. Its funny cuz PA can dominate most people with his science jargon talk (no offense) over at the bb.com forums because its a bunch of noob users and get awed by him and his words (not saying hes not smart and knows his sh!t but...) but here he gets shutdown pretty quick and i love to hear when other knowledgeable or more knowledgeable people will clear the air.

thanks for the info.:type:
i was not aware i was shut down.

and even if some of you guys do not like me, i would at least wish you would look at what i have to write and examine the science. its for your own good.
 

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i was not aware i was shut down.

and even if some of you guys do not like me, i would at least wish you would look at what i have to write and examine the science. its for your own good.
you didn't write ANYTHING! you listed a bunch of studies about un-related BREAST CANCER patients! :fool2:
 
strategicmove

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thats a metabolite of 7-keto. both are excellent for giving the fat burning and immune enhancing effects of dhea while avoiding the estrogenic sides
I outlined the same argument earlier in my justification of the preference of 7-Keto-DHEA over DHEA.
 
EasyEJL

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high dose dhea gives me gyno and quite reliably. when i took its metabolite 5-AD it was even worse.

this is enough real world evidence for me
When you say high dose, 500mg daily? more? just wondering. Some 6 month studies I found done at 100mg seemed ok
 
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When you say high dose, 500mg daily? more? just wondering. Some 6 month studies I found done at 100mg seemed ok
Some individuals develop problems even at 50mg DHEA over a period of several weeks.
 
Patrick Arnold

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I think that DHEA is valuable, at appropriate dosing, and that PA is way off on this one. But to me tho, this sounds like one of the "I've been smoking all my life and i'm fine, that cancer stuff is just a bunch of BS" lines.

I'm guessing that DHEA is in SDNG from the responses here :)
i am not way off on this one, in no way shape or form. i strongly urge you to go on pubmed and read up on dhea, adrenal androgens, 5-androstenediol and estrogenicity. you will be reading for a while

ever heard of the hormone hermaphrodiol? that is a name given 5-AD which is the main metabolite of DHEA. it was given that name because of its dual androgenic and estrogenic activity.

i am not saying you should never do DHEA. i am saying that it would be very wise to keep your levels low so that you do not exceed physiological replacement doses. if you want to get the fat burning immune enhancing benefits of dhea then use 7-keto. i don't sell 7-keto so this is not financially motivated advice
 
EasyEJL

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you didn't write ANYTHING! you listed a bunch of studies about un-related BREAST CANCER patients! :fool2:
Well, where did all the SERMs come from? Its not like Toremifene or Raloxifene were developed to help restart HTPA after use of AAS, they came from treating breast cancer in post-menopausal women.... So these studies may or may not be related really, as obviously the SERMs have real effect in men too.

I question whether there would be significant negative effect at reasonable doses (<100mg), or even at high doses for short term periods either way though. Hard to say.
 
strategicmove

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I recall having read that the side effects of DHEA supplementation could be cumulative and may not necessarily recede or stop upon cessation of the supplementation. DHEA should be consumed with care.
 
Patrick Arnold

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these studies all deal with breast cancer or related..........WHO THE HELL on here has BREAST CANCER?

You are trying to make a broad claim on a product when the studies are about breast cancer patients?

GRAB A CLUE, Pat!:clap2:


these have to do with estrogen receptors and breast cancer.

men have breasts with estrogen receptors too. did you not know that? what do you think happens when you stimulate these receptors mace?

the reason why the studies regarding these compounds and estrogen revolve around their relation to breast cancer is because that is a very popular and urgent medical concern.

People throw money at breast cancer research so you see articles on that. They do not throw money on gyno research in bodybuilders so that is why I am not able to post any such research.

we are often forced as ergogenic scientists/endrocrinologists to apply research involving indirect but related issues to bodybuilding. that is what we are doing here.

why do i bother. why do i freaking bother. i could be debating a dog here. go ahead, eat your dhea. your problem not mine
 
EasyEJL

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i am not way off on this one, in no way shape or form. i strongly urge you to go on pubmed and read up on dhea, adrenal androgens, 5-androstenediol and estrogenicity. you will be reading for a while

ever heard of the hormone hermaphrodiol? that is a name given 5-AD which is the main metabolite of DHEA. it was given that name because of its dual androgenic and estrogenic activity.

i am not saying you should never do DHEA. i am saying that it would be very wise to keep your levels low so that you do not exceed physiological replacement doses. if you want to get the fat burning immune enhancing benefits of dhea then use 7-keto. i don't sell 7-keto so this is not financially motivated advice

Hmm yeah, I was thinking in the context of a 40 year old me with low cholesterol + low overall hormone levels taking between 50-100mg daily, not a 21 year old dosing higher than that.
 
Patrick Arnold

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When you say high dose, 500mg daily? more? just wondering. Some 6 month studies I found done at 100mg seemed ok
100mg is fine

yes i am saying 500mg or more. one gram to be more specific

you will not get any anabolic effect whatsoever from 100mg however. to me it seems a waste to take that. perhaps there may be some brain effects from it due to non-genomic effects on neurons but thats it
 
bioman

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Despite all the poo throwing, this is a good discussion. I'd like to see more debate from both sides sans the poo.

People say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
 
Patrick Arnold

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Despite all the poo throwing, this is a good discussion. I'd like to see more debate from both sides sans the poo.

People say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.
we sell dhea under giant at 200mg per cap but we are either going to discontinue manufacturing it or greatly reduce the dosage. once the current stock is sold. i don't want to look like a hypocrite
 
Patrick Arnold

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Rev Fr Endocrinol Clin. 1966 Sep-Oct;7(5):383-7.Links
[Gynecomastia caused by excess of dehydroepiandrosterone][Article in French]


Marchandise B, Lederer J.
PMID: 4226387 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



-------------


Endocr J. 2001 Jun;48(3):345-54.Links
Serum concentration of androstenediol and androstenediol sulfate in patients with hyperthyroidism and hypothyroidism.Tagawa N, Takano T, Fukata S, Kuma K, Tada H, Izumi Y, Kobayashi Y, Amino N.
Clinical Chemistry Laboratory, Kobe Pharmaceutical University, Japan.

Androstenediol (5-androsten-3beta, 17beta-diol, ADIOL) and androstenediol 3-sulfate (ADIOLS) are active metabolites of dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) and DHEA sulfate (DHEAS), respectively, and have estrogenic activity and immunoregulatory function. We examined serum concentrations of ADIOL, ADIOLS, DHEA, DHEAS and pregnenolone sulfate (5-pregnen-3beta-ol-20-one sulfate, PREGS) in patients with Graves' thyrotoxicosis (male/female 9/14), hypothyroidism (11/20) and in normal controls (14/29). In hypothyroidism serum levels of all these steroids were significantly decreased in both genders. In hyperthyroidism, in contrast, serum levels of ADIOLS (male 1.49 +/- 0.69, female 0.64 +/- 0.31 micromol/l), DHEAS (male 7.43 +/- 3.91, female 5.13 +/- 2.03 micromol/l), and PREGS (male 1.13 +/- 0.58, female 1.07 +/- 0.85 micromol/l) were markedly increased, but serum concentrations of ADIOL and DEHA were not significantly different from controls (ADIOLS male 0.36 +/- 0.33, female 0.14 +/- 0.09 micromol/l; DHEAS male 2.88 +/- 1.70, female 1.86 +/- l1.03pmol/l; PREGS male 0.18 +/- 0.12, female 0.11 +/- 0.08 micromol/l; ADIOL male 3.76 +/- 1.35, female 1.91 +/- 1.17 nmol/l; DHEA male 9.23 +/- 3.49, female 13.5 +/- 10.8nmol/l). Serum concentrations of all these steroids correlated with the serum concentration of the thyroid hormones in these patients. Serum albumin and sex hormone-binding globulin concentrations were not related to these changes in the concentrations of steroids. These findings indicate that serum concentrations of ADIOLS, ADIOL, DHEAS, DHEA and PREGS were decreased in hypothyroidism, whereas serum ADIOLS, DHEAS and PREGS concentrations were increased but ADIOL and DHEA were normal in hyperthyroidism. Thyroid hormone may stimulate the synthesis of these steroids and sulfotransferase is speculated to be increased in hyperthyroidism. Increased ADIOLS might contribute to menstrual disturbances and gynecomastia in hyperthyroidism.

PMID: 11523906 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 

FitnFirm

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Is it time to play :D I have some interesting info I will fetch after I eat :cool:
 
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