powerfull vs Bulk 1-carboxy-2-amino-3-pyrobenzo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    muscles "absorb" L-dopa

    are you for real?

    you idiot, its called peripheral decarboxylation
    Muscle cells...whatever. I'm not the scientist (A BA in chemistry dose not make you a scientist) nor ever claimed to be.

    Can this idiot post the test on your Cissus? Answer the QUESTION PA. If anyone would be open to testing it should be you so not sure why you skip over the question or pretend it's not asked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by USPLabs View Post
    Muscle cells...whatever. I'm not the scientist (A BA in chemistry dose not make you a scientist) nor ever claimed to be.

    Can this idiot post the test on your Cissus? Answer the QUESTION PA. If anyone would be open to testing it should be you so not sure why you skip over the question or pretend it's not asked.
    he has answered it twice now.....he said YOU WILL NOT release anything or you will get a lawsuit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by judge-mental View Post
    Funny thing that all USP has done is evade questions, change his answers daily and attack PA. his statements on L-Dopa were moronic at best.

    PS I use bulk powerfull and love it, although it does make me get up at nights several times.
    Why is my statement moroninc at best? Please explain.

    I clearly answered the question. Here it is again since you can not grasp onto it. 1-carboxy is L-Dopa with natural decarboxylase inhibitors native to the herb and this is the reason you get an effect from our product(Unlike your idiol PA who claims it's useless) compared to previous or current L-dopa products on the market.

    Now I want my question answered from PA.

    Can I post the Cissus test? Before posting, I will test in 3 more times to validate the initial findings.

    PA stop avoiding the question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump View Post
    he has answered it twice now.....he said YOU WILL NOT release anything or you will get a lawsuit.
    Lame....

    The man who tests everthing is becoming hypocritical...weak.
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    Quote Originally Posted by USPLabs View Post
    Lame....

    The man who tests everthing is becoming hypocritical...weak.
    sounds like guilt to me.....honestly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pistonpump View Post
    sounds like guilt to me.....honestly.
    I'll just keep asking and hit a soft spot in PA's weathered personality.

    He is the smartest "chemist" in the industry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lanbane View Post
    While degrees and formal education are important........ we must always bear in mind that many (perhaps the majority?) of MD's and PhD's say supplements do not work. And proceed to tell you the best way to lose weight is to park further away and walk...... on your way into a restaurant, where you are to order steamed vegetables.

    Sarcastically, is my point made? So what if PA has a BA.... he knows his chemicals.
    That is actually incredibly sound advice from a a doctor. Also, very few supplements have been proven to do jack all in placebo controlled, double blind studies. A few supplements do work, but no where near to the claims put forward by the supplement companies. Also, a person does not need a PHD in an area of study to be knowledgeable in that subject, anyone who knows how to read can educate themselves on a topic.

    Here is my take on what PAT is doing. Pat has felt the heat of the feds come down on him firsthand and knows what they can do if they so choose. The supplement industry is one piece of legislation away form extinction and the supplement companies with their unethical business practices and insane and irresponsible claims are practically drafting the legislation themselves by their reckless and self-serving actions. Yes it is a business and yes it is cut throat, but more and more companies are entering this area every day and are desperate to make as much money as they can, by whatever methods they can, and then cash out. PA i believe really loves this industry and Ergopharm is his passion in life and he sees this industry about to be destroyed. Now PA has a bit of blame in this as 1-ad was what captured the feds attention, but there were so many other companies that made so much more dangerous compounds that he feels somewhat martyred by his experiences. There is a a bit of self pity going on with PA, but I also believe that he does not want to see this industry regulated out of existence.
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    I'd like to see these tests posted, because I'm confused on what you're challenging in regards to his Cissus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by USPLabs View Post
    Lame....

    The man who tests everthing is becoming hypocritical...weak.
    He has asked for the opportunity to review them first. He gave ALRI the same courtesy with JW and his GC test after that controversy. If you would like to make them open record, is there a problem with sending him a copy first?

    Its such a pity egos and personalities get so tied up with the science. I guess its always the case when you really love what you do and are passionate about it. Hate + Love are flip sides of the same coin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    He has asked for the opportunity to review them first. He gave ALRI the same courtesy with JW and his GC test after that controversy. If you would like to make them open record, is there a problem with sending him a copy first?

    Its such a pity egos and personalities get so tied up with the science. I guess its always the case when you really love what you do and are passionate about it. Hate + Love are flip sides of the same coin.
    He dose not make the rules. I will not fabricate a test. With his permission, I will test it 3 more times before posting. He can even send the new samples to India. But he may refuse to send to India due to his racist nature against Indians that he claims is cultural.

    He can review them when it's posted on the forums..ofcourse if permission is granted
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    But he will not give permission for them to be posted without reviewing them beforehand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by USPLabs View Post
    He dose not make the rules. I will not fabricate a test. With his permission, I will test it 3 more times before posting. He can even send the new samples to India. But he may refuse to send to India due to his racist nature against Indians that he claims is cultural.

    He can review them when it's posted on the forums..ofcourse if permission is granted
    Well, I hope he does, as I'd like to see what the results are.

    And being in the software industry, I can understand the cultural + also language barriers in dealing with India from a business perspective. It is a completely different world there, and businesses do not work the same way. I've sometimes wanted to poke my own eardrums out trying to work out details of something in code with developers. Even just in family life (my neighborhood has a lot of indian families) they are quite a different model than the american nuclear family. Not worse, not better just different and so it takes a lot of effort to get things working with them. Once you have things up and running, its not as bad. Its the startup thats is painful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by USPLabs View Post
    He dose not make the rules. I will not fabricate a test. With his permission, I will test it 3 more times before posting. He can even send the new samples to India. But he may refuse to send to India due to his racist nature against Indians that he claims is cultural.

    He can review them when it's posted on the forums..ofcourse if permission is granted
    What would be so hard about sending him the results of your test? Thats what he does when he test something. Jebus
    If you let Pat review your tests it does us all good. If you just claim to have them but don't let anyone see them all it does is create excess drama.
    I am very interested in what your decarboxylase inhibitors are as if they are real I may need to try your powerfull.
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    Quote Originally Posted by USPLabs View Post
    He dose not make the rules. I will not fabricate a test. With his permission, I will test it 3 more times before posting. He can even send the new samples to India. But he may refuse to send to India due to his racist nature against Indians that he claims is cultural.

    He can review them when it's posted on the forums..ofcourse if permission is granted
    Just wondering, if we never had this USP vs. PA thread, what would you have done with these test results? Post them?

    I don't mean to be the d*ck that I so totally am, but I really don't see what you're accomplishing by asking such questions in a public message board. It's none of my damn business if you get PA's permission to post results, nor is it the business of this thread topic or the other few thousand people that read this forum. This is a private matter between you and Giant Nutrition.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Well, I hope he does, as I'd like to see what the results are.

    And being in the software industry, I can understand the cultural + also language barriers in dealing with India from a business perspective. It is a completely different world there, and businesses do not work the same way. I've sometimes wanted to poke my own eardrums out trying to work out details of something in code with developers. Even just in family life (my neighborhood has a lot of indian families) they are quite a different model than the american nuclear family. Not worse, not better just different and so it takes a lot of effort to get things working with them. Once you have things up and running, its not as bad. Its the startup thats is painful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonschaffin View Post
    What would be so hard about sending him the results of your test? Thats what he does when he test something. Jebus
    If you let Pat review your tests it does us all good. If you just claim to have them but don't let anyone see them all it does is create excess drama.
    I am very interested in what your decarboxylase inhibitors are as if they are real I may need to try your powerfull.
    At the price, its worth trying once - bulk powerfull is $15, and bulk 1-c is only $18, I've spent more than that on lunch some days. Bulk powerFull has been the single supplement i've bought the most times repetitively, and I consider it a stable. It may be that for my purposes the 1-carboxy might be better, so next time around i'm going to try that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonschaffin View Post
    I am very interested in what your decarboxylase inhibitors are as if they are real I may need to try your powerfull.
    This is what Jacob said earlier:
    Quote Originally Posted by USPLabs View Post
    Here it is again since you can not grasp onto it. 1-carboxy is L-Dopa with natural decarboxylase inhibitors native to the herb and this is the reason you get an effect from our product(Unlike your idiol PA who claims it's useless) compared to previous or current L-dopa products on the market.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpen22 View Post
    This is what Jacob said earlier:
    Here is my problem with that though. Isn't most L-dopa derived from the same parent plant at a certain percent extract? How is this L-dopa different from other L-dopa products? Is it extracted from a different plant? Doesn't most L-dopa come from Mucana Pruiens(sp?)?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonschaffin;
    Here is my problem with that though. Isn't most L-dopa derived from the same parent plant at a certain percent extract? How is this L-dopa different from other L-dopa products? Is it extracted from a different plant? Doesn't most L-dopa come from Mucana Pruiens(sp?)?
    These questions were asked and answered earlier in the thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strategicmove View Post
    These questions were asked and answered earlier in the thread.
    Not really, but if I am wrong quote the post that shows it. Seems this L-dopa comes from the same plant as all the other l-dopa's. If this is the case all the L-dopa products would have these decarboxylase inhibitors. And that would mean USP's product is no better than anyone elses.
    And also, what are these decarboxylase inhibitors? Names of the compounds?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonschaffin View Post
    Is it extracted from a different plant? Doesn't most L-dopa come from Mucana Pruiens(sp?)?
    According to the label, it is an "extract engineered from Dolichos Pruriens L.", which means it comes form Mucuna Pruriens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thesinner View Post
    Just wondering, if we never had this USP vs. PA thread, what would you have done with these test results? Post them?

    I don't mean to be the d*ck that I so totally am, but I really don't see what you're accomplishing by asking such questions in a public message board. It's none of my damn business if you get PA's permission to post results, nor is it the business of this thread topic or the other few thousand people that read this forum. This is a private matter between you and Giant Nutrition.
    Wow. Are you that biased? In general this thread is about questioning a product.

    Why is it a double edge sword? PA continously creates threads questioning other products and is cheered on for it. I just responded to his questioning of our products in a thread I did not create, and Pat Arnold entered his attacks, and you question my motives..funny.

    Why let someone reveiw a Test first?

    If it's fabricated, he will win in court. Since Pat Arnold has concerned himself with us than I must release my concern on his product.

    I've never attacked another company nor concerned myself with others. My objective is growing USPlabs and releasing great products that work.

    PowerFULL and all the USPlabs line up has graced AM for over 2 years. There is a reason why we are still around and growing fast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by USPLabs View Post
    If it's fabricated, he will win in court. Since Pat Arnold has concerned himself with us than I must release my concern on his product.
    Why cant you just post it then. If they are legit then you will get in no trouble, right?
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    First of all (as I've stated in another thread), if I could only use 1 supp for the rest of my life, it would be cissus. For that very reason, I'm forever grateful to USP.
    So this question is merely out of sincere curiosity, but why shouldn't USP let PA have a look at the report before releasing it? Maybe just send him a copy, with the understanding that you will be releasing it publicly in 24 (or 48) hrs. Is that dumb?
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpen22 View Post
    According to the label, it is an "extract engineered from Dolichos Pruriens L.", which means it comes form Mucuna Pruriens.
    exactly, so why would it be any better than oyher l-dopa's? wouldn't all the other mucana extracts have the same decarboxylase inhibitors? supplemental l-dopa is always an extract and not synthetic? I just don't get the superiority if they come form the same plant. How is it better than the l-dopa in IGF-2 or any other product? the IGF-2 extract is from mucana
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImJ2x View Post
    First of all (as I've stated in another thread), if I could only use 1 supp for the rest of my life, it would be cissus. For that very reason, I'm forever grateful to USP.
    So this question is merely out of sincere curiosity, but why shouldn't USP let PA have a look at the report before releasing it? Maybe just send him a copy, with the understanding that you will be releasing it publicly in 24 (or 48) hrs. Is that dumb?
    Exactly, if PA got screwed by his supplier of cissus shouldn't you let him know. If he is trying to screw over the consumer than shouldn't you call him out for our sake?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonschaffin View Post
    Exactly, if PA got screwed by his supplier of cissus shouldn't you let him know. If he is trying to screw over the consumer than shouldn't you call him out for our sake?
    ...what he said
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonschaffin View Post
    Exactly, if PA got screwed by his supplier of cissus shouldn't you let him know. If he is trying to screw over the consumer than shouldn't you call him out for our sake?
    And I think thats why PA wants to see it first. If he is getting jacked by his supplier, or there is some other problem unknown to him he'd try to fix it, or pull the product until it was fixed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by USPLabs View Post
    Wow. Are you that biased? In general this thread is about questioning a product.

    Why is it a double edge sword? PA continously creates threads questioning other products and is cheered on for it. I just responded to his questioning of our products in a thread I did not create, and Pat Arnold entered his attacks, and you question my motives..funny.

    Why let someone reveiw a Test first?

    If it's fabricated, he will win in court. Since Pat Arnold has concerned himself with us than I must release my concern on his product.

    I've never attacked another company nor concerned myself with others. My objective is growing USPlabs and releasing great products that work.

    PowerFULL and all the USPlabs line up has graced AM for over 2 years. There is a reason why we are still around and growing fast.
    There's taking the high road, and then there's sinking down to another persons level.

    It's just my personal opinion, but if I ever have a concern about a company's product, I send them an email or some other form of private contact. Doing it in a public forum just causes commotion, misinformation, and just plain chaos.

    USPLabs is a great company. I use their products all the time. But in my eyes the bickering and fighting just comes from these threads just doesn't make either party look good.

    Do whatever you want, and the best luck with whichever path you choose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    And I think thats why PA wants to see it first. If he is getting jacked by his supplier, or there is some other problem unknown to him he'd try to fix it, or pull the product until it was fixed.
    But then the flip side of the coin is (always playing devil's advocate), if USP could find a big prob with PA's product, shouldn't PA find the prob before offering it for sale?
    Again, this is all pure conjecture, because we really don't know what is contained in USP's "report."
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    I'm not a chemist or a lawyer, but I agree that it would probably be in USP's best interest not to release any test results of a direct competitor without the consent of said competitor. I'd like to try and believe that the concern over others' products is for the good of the consumers, unfortunately that's not the way a business usually works. If there is a real problem with Giant's cissus, I'd like Patrick to be notified so he can attempt to rectify the problem or let it be known to his consumers. JMHO.

    Carry on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImJ2x View Post
    But then the flip side of the coin is (always playing devil's advocate), if USP could find a big prob with PA's product, shouldn't PA find the prob before offering it for sale?
    Again, this is all pure conjecture, because we really don't know what is contained in USP's "report."
    Who is saying the report is bad?

    Pat Arnold released an inhouse lab test on Cissus that can be viewed on his website.

    Once our patent is issued(hopefully issued), we will deal with all the cissus issues but for now, we have to much innovation on our hands to worry about Pat Arnold.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold View Post
    going more of this and other studies.

    oh, and stop being so sensitive. let us fight


    Xenobiotica. 2000 Sep;30(9):857-66.Links
    Sulphation of resveratrol, a natural compound present in wine, and its inhibition by natural flavonoids.De Santi C, Pietrabissa A, Spisni R, Mosca F, Pacifici GM.
    Department of Neurosciences, Medical School, Pisa, Italy.

    1. Resveratrol, a polyphenolic compound present in grape and wine, has beneficial effects against cancer and protective effects on the cardiovascular system. Resveratrol is sulphated, and the hepatic and duodenal sulphation might limit the bioavailability of this compound. The aim of this study was to see whether natural flavonoids present in wine, fruits and vegetables inhibit the sulphation of resveratrol in the human liver and duodenum. 2. In the liver, IC50 for the inhibition of resveratrol sulphation was 12+/-2 pM (quercetin), 1.0+/-0.04 microM (fisetin), 1.4+/-0.1 microM (myricetin), 2.2+/-0.1 microM (kaempferol) and 2.8+/-0.2 microM (apigenin). Similarly, in the duodenum, IC50 was 15+/-2 pM (quercetin), 1.3+/-0.1 microM (apigenin), 1.3+/-0.5 microM (fisetin), 2.3+/-0.1 microM (kaempferol) and 2.5+/-0.3 microM (myricetin). 3. The type of inhibition of quercetin on resveratrol sulphation was studied in three liver samples and was determined to be non-competitive and mixed in nature. Km (mean+/-superdrol; microM) was 0.23+/-0.07 (control), 0.40+/-0.08 (5 pM quercetin) and 0.56+/-0.09 (10 pM quercetin). Vmax (mean+/-SD; pmol min(-1) x mg(-1)) was 99+/-11 (control), 73+/-15 (5 pM quercetin) and 57 +/- 10 (10 pM quercetin). Kj and Kies estimates (mean+/-SD) were 3.7+/-1.8 pM and 12.1+/-1.7 pM respectively (p = 0.010). 4. Chrysin was a substrate for the sulphotransferase(s) and an assay was developed for measuring the chrysin sulphation rate in human liver. The enzyme followed Michaelis-Menten kinetics and Km and Vmax (mean+/-SD) measured in four livers were 0.29+/-0.07 microM and 43.1+/-1.9 pmol x min(-1) x mg(-1) respectively. 5. Catechin was neither an inhibitor of resveratrol sulphation nor a substrate of sulphotransferase. 6. These results are consistent with the view that many, but not all, flavonoids inhibit the hepatic and duodenal sulphation of resveratrol, and such inhibition might improve the bioavailability of this compound.

    PMID: 11055264 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
    Below is given to me by our stuborn Indian Doctors on staff.

    It doesn't mean anything. As I was saying on the phone, the reason I first
    looked at it was because of this (and other) in vitro literature, but in
    vitro data is weak and needs to be confirmed via in vivo research. That in
    vitro study was the reason they decided to look in vivo, in animal models,
    to see if it really did inhibit resveratrol metabolism and it didn't.
    Consequently, that's why I dropped the idea of using quercetin. It's
    actually mentioned in that study quote I sent you below. I'll bolded and
    underline that portion:

    But, in evaluating the bioavailability of resveratrol, it should
    also be accounted for that in red wine, the main dietary
    source of resveratrol and piceid in the western diet, numerous
    polyphenols, like stilbenes, flavonoids, or anthocyanins
    occur. It cannot be ruled out, that resveratrol metabolism in
    vivo is inhibited by other polyphenols due to competitive
    metabolization via the same phase II enzyme systems.
    Although by now, after coadministration of resveratrol, catechin,
    and quercetin to rats no inhibition of resveratrol metabolism
    could be observed, in vitro experiments showed the
    inhibition of resveratrol glucuronidation and sulfation in
    liver and duodenum samples by quercetin [14, 24]. Furthermore,
    it is known that epicatechin gallate and epigallocatechin
    gallate are potent inhibitors of human liver sulfotransferases
    [34].
    Attached Files Attached Files
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    Quote Originally Posted by USPLabs View Post
    Who is saying the report is bad?

    Pat Arnold released an inhouse lab test on Cissus that can be viewed on his website.

    Once our patent is issued(hopefully issued), we will deal with all the cissus issues but for now, we have to much innovation on our hands to worry about Pat Arnold.
    Like I said, it's all conjecture, because we don't know what's in your report. (All the more reason to "let it go" for now, I suppose.)
    On a side note, is USP a public company? Because if you guys can achieve a monopoly on the cissus market (depending, of course, on the claims and breadth of your patent), I'd love to invest, lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImJ2x View Post
    Like I said, it's all conjecture, because we don't know what's in your report. (All the more reason to "let it go" for now, I suppose.)
    On a side note, is USP a public company? Because if you guys can achieve a monopoly on the cissus market (depending, of course, on the claims and breadth of your patent), I'd love to invest, lol.
    Correct.

    I'm moving on and wish Pat Arnold the best.

    We have a few HUGE releases coming soon...off to work.

    One is similiar to Pat's 11-oxo but non steroidal..pretty cool!
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    Quote Originally Posted by USPLabs View Post
    Correct.

    I'm moving on and wish Pat Arnold the best.

    We have a few HUGE releases coming soon...off to work.

    One is similiar to Pat's 11-oxo but non steroidal..pretty cool!
    Sounds very interesting -- good luck.
    (And PM me with info on any IPO, lol.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by USPLabs View Post
    Correct.

    I'm moving on and wish Pat Arnold the best.

    We have a few HUGE releases coming soon...off to work.

    One is similiar to Pat's 11-oxo but non steroidal..pretty cool!
    ooh a working non steroidal cortisol inhibitor? that would be nice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    ooh a working non steroidal cortisol inhibitor? that would be nice.
    It's already done, extracted and next is release
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    Quote Originally Posted by USPLabs View Post
    It's already done, extracted and next is release
    How long until the ingredients are released?
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    Quote Originally Posted by USPLabs View Post
    It's already done, extracted and next is release
    Hmm well sign me up to try that out I tried XPN's androextreme (adrenosterone, same in theory as 11-oxo or 3-ad) for 10 days at 450mg a day and saw nothing. I had been at the end of a long cutting cycle already (without any refeeds or cheats for months), but it was still disappointing to me as most users saw a visible difference in that time, some as early as 3 days. In all honesty in 8 days of taking fish oils at 30-35g a day i've seen more results.

    I was thinking of trying a 7-keto product, but its slightly cost prohibitive (over $2/day) at the superdoses to really strip off the VAT as well as SAT.

    I'll keep an eye out for when you are releasing it.
  

  
 

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