powerfull vs Bulk 1-carboxy-2-amino-3-pyrobenzo

[itsrawb]

how/what are the differences/noticable effects,

to simplify question

which would you choose and why?

thanks

 

[easymac]

If just for sleep/GH i would go with the bulk 1-carboxy. If you are looking for strength and muscle i would go with powerfull. It is more that just 1-carboxy-2-amino-3-pyrobenzol(3,4 diol).

 

[Patrick Arnold]

how/what are the differences/noticable effects,

to simplify question

which would you choose and why?

thanks

why can't people just call it L-dopa like the rest of the world

this crazy games with nomenclature are driving me nuts.

just becuase you call an old mule by a new fancy name doesn't mean he is gonna pull your plow any faster

 

[b unit]

why can't people just call it L-dopa like the rest of the world

this crazy games with nomenclature are driving me nuts.

just becuase you call an old mule by a new fancy name doesn't mean he is gonna pull your plow any faster

that's true dude, it's the dhea nomenclature "new ph's" that are driving me nuts though:fool2:

 

[b unit]

If just for sleep/GH i would go with the bulk 1-carboxy. If you are looking for strength and muscle i would go with powerfull. It is more that just 1-carboxy-2-amino-3-pyrobenzol(3,4 diol).

i'd go with the powerful and get both the strenght/muscle benefits and improved sleep benefits, it's simple really :thumbsup:

 

[Patrick Arnold]

i'd go with the powerful and get both the strenght/muscle benefits and improved sleep benefits, it's simple really :thumbsup:

i am a bit confused. the only thing other than l-dopa this powerful has is some plant sterols

l-dopa actually f's up your sleep. gives you weird dreams. and the stuff certainly does not build muscle

and i never heard of plant sterols doing much of anything.

 

[b unit]

i am a bit confused. the only thing other than l-dopa this powerful has is some plant sterols

l-dopa actually f's up your sleep. gives you weird dreams. and the stuff certainly does not build muscle

and i never heard of plant sterols doing much of anything.

are you saying that the effects of powerful is Placebo?

 

[Patrick Arnold]

are you saying that the effects of powerful is Placebo?

i have never taken it nor have known anyone that has taken it.

i also do not trust internet testimonials as the internet is rife with fabricated anecdotal reports designed to promote products

am i making accusations? no. i am simply speaking common sense and practicing due diligence

with that said, i can only assess a supplement based on its ingredients and the science or lack thereof associated with those ingredients

 

[itsrawb]

thanks for all the feedback

 

[b unit]

i have never taken it nor have known anyone that has taken it.

i also do not trust internet testimonials as the internet is rife with fabricated anecdotal reports designed to promote products

am i making accusations? no. i am simply speaking common sense and practicing due diligence

with that said, i can only assess a supplement based on its ingredients and the science or lack thereof associated with those ingredients

:jaw:

i also do not trust internet testimonials, as well as magazine testimonials and promotional video testimonials

cheers pat - keep up the stellar work dude

 

[nycste]

i have never taken it nor have known anyone that has taken it.

i also do not trust internet testimonials as the internet is rife with fabricated anecdotal reports designed to promote products

am i making accusations? no. i am simply speaking common sense and practicing due diligence

with that said, i can only assess a supplement based on its ingredients and the science or lack thereof associated with those ingredients

well you should learn to trust some peoples comments esp those that dont respond and compare them to those that say they are superman etc etc.

PAT send me products ill test em down the road and tell ya whats what. i dont hype things up. my all time best workouts were me all natural so far. building back up to that though cuz of injury and sickness in past

 

[vince spider]

i have never taken it nor have known anyone that has taken it.

i also do not trust internet testimonials as the internet is rife with fabricated anecdotal reports designed to promote products

am i making accusations? no. i am simply speaking common sense and practicing due diligence

with that said, i can only assess a supplement based on its ingredients and the science or lack thereof associated with those ingredients

if you havent tried it then where is argument coming from dude? have you got any pubmed to back up your case?
im a big fan of powerfull and have used it many times and i think it does what it says it does. :clean:
whats your backround in the gym arena to make you such an a authority to be running powerfull down?

 

[vince spider]

i have never taken it nor have known anyone that has taken it.

i also do not trust internet testimonials as the internet is rife with fabricated anecdotal reports designed to promote products

am i making accusations? no. i am simply speaking common sense and practicing due diligence

with that said, i can only assess a supplement based on its ingredients and the science or lack thereof associated with those ingredients

if you havent tried it then where is argument coming from dude? have you got any pubmed to back up your case?
im a big fan of powerfull and have used it many times and i think it does what it says it does. :clean:
whats your backround in the gym arena to make you such an a authority to be running powerfull down?

 

[vince spider]

i have never taken it nor have known anyone that has taken it.

i also do not trust internet testimonials as the internet is rife with fabricated anecdotal reports designed to promote products

am i making accusations? no. i am simply speaking common sense and practicing due diligence

with that said, i can only assess a supplement based on its ingredients and the science or lack thereof associated with those ingredients

if you havent tried it then where is argument coming from dude? have you got any pubmed to back up your case?
im a big fan of powerfull and have used it many times and i think it does what it says it does. :clean:
whats your backround in the gym arena to make you such an a authority to be running powerfull down?

 

[vince spider]

sorry about all the duplicate posts, was having trouble with computer
cheers dudes

 

[strategicmove]

Doesn't L-Dopa's anabolic pathway occur via increased GH secretion and enhanced testosterone release via a prolactin-inhibiting mechanism?
Besides, as far as I recall, plant sterols, amongst others, significantly lower LDL cholesterols, implicated in coronary heart conditions.
http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWERS/ANS01033.html

 

[pistonpump]

ive used it and can vouch for increased libido at the very least. I thought L-dopa was also used for its GH releasing props not direct muscle-building.

Id like to see you back up your statements with a little more then your say so PA. Im making mine off of experience with the product at least.

 

[skull]

the word I hate the most [which is just a big scam] ETIOALLOCHOLANE--alri is famous for using word in a lot of his supps

 

[Patrick Arnold]

if you havent tried it then where is argument coming from dude? have you got any pubmed to back up your case?
im a big fan of powerfull and have used it many times and i think it does what it says it does. :clean:
whats your backround in the gym arena to make you such an a authority to be running powerfull down?

this question is misguided on so many levels.

answer-

1) no, you are right. there are no studies in pubmed that prove that this supplement does not work. so i guess that is proof it does work

2) i have no background. i am nobody. oh, and thanks for schooling me in scientific method

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Doesn't L-Dopa's anabolic pathway occur via increased GH secretion and enhanced testosterone release via a prolactin-inhibiting mechanism?
Besides, as far as I recall, plant sterols, amongst others, significantly lower LDL cholesterols, implicated in coronary heart conditions.
http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWERS/ANS01033.html

this background science is true however there is nothing to indicate that either of these alone or together have much of any significance in the building muscle mass.

L-dopa has been used by bodybuilders for years, originally it used to be an adjunct to GH use. I used it for a while. My friends did. it did nothing on its own

plant sterols do not build muscle either. they are one of the oldest and cheapest scam ingredients in bodybuilding supplements.

dude i am just speaking the truth here

 

[Patrick Arnold]

ive used it and can vouch for increased libido at the very least. I thought L-dopa was also used for its GH releasing props not direct muscle-building.

Id like to see you back up your statements with a little more then your say so PA. Im making mine off of experience with the product at least.

tell me what i have to back up. be specific.

 

[ReaperX]

So what about ALRI's Pro-Anabol where they 17a the ecdysterone ? Probably still ineffective then ?>

 

[200wannabe]

I like this stuff purely for its sleep promoting effects - certianly makes me drop off more quickly.

I found the original powerful gave me a little more endurance in the gym but I have not tried the new formulations.

I am concerned about the long term use of L-Dopa on a daily basis however. Anybody any thoughts on that?

 

[pistonpump]

I like this stuff purely for its sleep promoting effects - certianly makes me drop off more quickly.

I found the original powerful gave me a little more endurance in the gym but I have not tried the new formulations.

I am concerned about the long term use of L-Dopa on a daily basis however. Anybody any thoughts on that?

anything that messes with dopamine levels is somewhat risky...esp for people with some sort of mental disorder background or depression.

 

[pistonpump]

tell me what i have to back up. be specific.

how bout this statement? "and i never heard of plant sterols doing much of anything." are you saying they dont have benefiets in bodybuilding?

 

[ReaperX]

I think Patrick was referencing specifically plant sterols in terms of 'muscle building.'


plant extracts like cissus/ephedra/urtica dioca/l-dopa (I don't mess with that stuff) all have some benefit, but none of them build muscle directly.

 

[strategicmove]

I think Patrick was referencing specifically plant sterols in terms of 'muscle building.'

His comment on plant sterols was very general. There was nothing in the comment that implied he referred to muscle-building properties only.

Here is the comment once more: "and i never heard of plant sterols doing much of anything."

This is what motivated me to recall plant-sterols' LDL cholesterol-lowering properties. I am not sure any one wanted to say plant sterols build muscles. Yet, they have benefits for athletes. Not every compound in a formula for body builders and other athletes should have anabolic properties. Some just do other nice things. Like plant sterols!

 

[Patrick Arnold]

So what about ALRI's Pro-Anabol where they 17a the ecdysterone ? Probably still ineffective then ?>

ecdysterone has some things suggesting a possible nitrogen retaining effect but nothing showing any clear benefits in athletes.

its been around for a long time and reviews are mixed (not that reviews tell us that much). a controlled clinical would be nice

 

[json75]

Dammit......I was so close to finally ordering bulk Powerfull. I hate the fact that I'm so easily swayed by PA.....

However, I do I have my own mind, and for the price its going for, it cant hurt...........alot.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Dammit......I was so close to finally ordering bulk Powerfull. I hate the fact that I'm so easily swayed by PA.....

However, I do I have my own mind, and for the price its going for, it cant hurt...........alot.

you can try l-dopa for a while if you like, it is very cheap. it may give you a transient lift. i remember when i was taking it i thought i felt something at first but then it seemed it was doing nothing. and you should not take it for too long because it has potentially serious side effects

i am curious about the claims that USP makes in their ads. they are saying that l-dopa does not pass the blood brain barrier but that is a complete contradicition because the very reason l-dopa was developed was to pass the blood brain barrier. the purpose was to increase dopamine levels in the brain (particularly a region called the substantia nigra) for the treatment of parkinsons disease. L-dopa could pass into the brain and then metabolize into dopamine afterwards - dopamine itself cannot pass the BBB

to learn about l-dopa, the FACTS about l-dopa, all you have to do is check out the wikipedia entry. Levodopa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[pistonpump]

ecdysterone has some things suggesting a possible nitrogen retaining effect but nothing showing any clear benefits in athletes.

its been around for a long time and reviews are mixed (not that reviews tell us that much). a controlled clinical would be nice

funny you say a controlled clinical when i havent seen any with your products...

 

[whitedevil74]

funny you say a controlled clinical when i havent seen any with your products...

There has been a controlled clinical of 6OXO and the results were pretty good. 11OXO just came out so give it a bit.

I understand people's skepticism of PA coming on here and talking down certain supplements, but here is something most people seem to be missing. He could just as easily sell these substances himself and make the exact same claims, and with the respect the Ergopharm name carries, he could make a fortune off of it. He also has a stellar lab, unlike most companies, and makes most of his products in house. He does not chose to do that, why I am not going to guess at his motives, but you people who think that he is just trying to bash competitors to increases his sales are not really thinking this through. There are very few patents granted in the supplement industry so anything he bashes, he could easily sell himself. While I do not think his motives are entirely pure, I think his reasoning is hard to criticize, he is just using the best available scientific evidence and if there is a lack of evidence supporting any of these companies claims he is pointing that out as well.

I will also note that I do purchase Bulk Powerfull and find that it does help with Libido, as far as muscle building, who knows, there are so many variable s with my diet, training, other supplementation that it is almost impossible to say.

 

[ReaperX]

Many companies lack the intellegence/resources to produce real products based on more than just obsecure studies.....and no Dr. Marvin Hauer aka lead developer from Muscle-Tech dosen't count

In turn, a lot of these companies look up what's hot, get the product, copy the ingredient list, put some cool packaging/fancy name, then re-sell.

 

[pistonpump]

i was mainly refering to that 6-MU, i would like to see more on it. Im done with challenging PA, he's cool i like him here and apprieciate his opinions and insight. peace.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

funny you say a controlled clinical when i havent seen any with your products...

we have funded two clinical studies to date on 6-oxo and have funded studies in the past on 4-ad, cyclo-4-ad, and 1-ad as well as other products that we have yet to bring to market

other products that we sell have ingredients in them that have already had clinical studies done on them also by others

thanks for the attitude though man, very nice

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Many companies lack the intellegence/resources to produce real products based on more than just obsecure studies.....and no Dr. Marvin Hauer aka lead developer from Muscle-Tech dosen't count

In turn, a lot of these companies look up what's hot, get the product, copy the ingredient list, put some cool packaging/fancy name, then re-sell.

exactly

i see stuff from years and years ago get recycled under new names with claims even bolder than before all the time.

L-dopa with plant sterols is a perfect case

 

[Patrick Arnold]

i was mainly refering to that 6-MU, i would like to see more on it. Im done with challenging PA, he's cool i like him here and apprieciate his opinions and insight. peace.

i have a ton of abstracts on the stuff, most done in russia. its a pretty obscure ingredient in a product that we are gonna discontinue. i admit it is no miracle supplement but it is good for optimizing RNA synthesis, which is an often overlooked aspect of muscle recovery and growth

 

[pistonpump]

we have funded two clinical studies to date on 6-oxo and have funded studies in the past on 4-ad, cyclo-4-ad, and 1-ad as well as other products that we have yet to bring to market

other products that we sell have ingredients in them that have already had clinical studies done on them also by others

thanks for the attitude though man, very nice

i thought that 6oxo would have to have the clinicals and the other popular hormonal stuff. anyway glad you enjoyed the attitude. You do the same from time to time dont you?
:cheers: its all good.

 

[whitedevil74]

exactly

i see stuff from years and years ago get recycled under new names with claims even bolder than before all the time.

L-dopa with plant sterols is a perfect case

The supplement industry is the charlatans playground.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Pat, as sketchy as this stuff seems, and I do sympathize with all of your sentiments...1-Carboxy is not the same as L-Dopa.

You are of course right about L-Dopa crossing the BBB, it does so through a LNAA transporter which is why it cant be taken with protein. This is documented, not sure why USP is stating otherwise.

I have plenty of experience with L-Dopa, and again, you are exactly right...it f'd up my sleep and gave me creepy, twisted dreams. When taking 250mg pre-bed, it would cause me to wake up 15-20 times per night, in an awake-dream state.

It works great for about 2 weeks for motivation/daytime stimulation...then stops working. 1 week off, and it starts working again. Similar to deprenyl/selegeline in motivation effects...except dep works better the longer you're on it. L-Dopa also needs to be taken with a peripheral decarboxylase inhibitor...green tea extract/EGCG actually works fine...no need to go to the prescription carbidopa.

All that being said, I've been taking bulk 1-carboxy for about 2 weeks now, and the effects are entirely different. I take a large dose before bed (2.4g) and within 30min I start yawning and become extremely relaxed. My whole life I've had a problem waking up refreshed, and every single time I've taken this the past 2 weeks, I've woken up early, 30-60min before my alarm goes off and felt extremely rested.

Even if this does nothing for my body comp, i would take it just for the way I feel in the morning, which I've never been able to maintain aside from transient phases.

As for daytime doses, 800mg still has a bit of a relaxing effect, whereas a good dose of L-Dopa (250mg) has a very stimulating effect.

I was pretty skeptical about it doing anything (but it was cheap, and I'm a sucker for dopaminergics)...as my only other experience with USP was with a couple of bottles of Anabolic Pump they sent me to test, which did absolutely nothing.

I made a post about 1-Carboxy in the Inner Circle at M&M...you've got access, check it out. It would be good to see you over there anyway. I also have my L-Dopa experience posted there somewhere.


(This is Marc, by the way)

 

[Patrick Arnold]

Pat, as sketchy as this stuff seems, and I do sympathize with all of your sentiments...1-Carboxy is not the same as L-Dopa.

It isn't?

please explain the chemical differences. what IS the stuff then if it is not L-dopa?

a real chemical name would be nice.

 

[thesinner]

It isn't?

please explain the chemical differences. what IS the stuff then if it is not L-dopa?

a real chemical name would be nice.

I've been wondering this myself for quite some time, as well.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

I've been wondering this myself for quite some time, as well.

pyrobenzol is an archaic alternative name for benzene so breaking the name down it appears that it either is a screwed up name for L-dopa or it is sort of a butanoic acid derivative of l-dopa (which has a propionic acid side chain). but if it is the latter then it would not be a dopamine precursor at all

I think they tried to be fancy with the name and messed up. what they should have said (and not that the structure of the name is right anyway) was

2-carboxy-2-amino-1-pyrobenzol-(3,4-diol)


bottom line is, this is not a derivative of L-dopa. It is just L-dopa plain and simple

 

[ReaperX]

pyrobenzol is an archaic alternative name for benzene so breaking the name down it appears that it either is a screwed up name for L-dopa or it is sort of a butanoic acid derivative of l-dopa (which has a propionic acid side chain). but if it is the latter then it would not be a dopamine precursor at all

I think they tried to be fancy with the name and messed up. what they should have said (and not that the structure of the name is right anyway) was

2-carboxy-2-amino-1-pyrobenzol-(3,4-diol)


bottom line is, this is not a derivative of L-dopa. It is just L-dopa plain and simple

Isn't a typo in the ingredients for a product fall under 'mislabeling' supplements and illegal ? Even if it is a typo it is not exactly the name of the ingredient. While 99.9% of the IUPAC nomenclature is correct, we all know a number,dash,bond location, etc makes a world difference, but by law, supplements need to have accurate labeling of their products ?

 

[xjsynx]

I wasn't impressed with PowerFULL, and USP wasn't impressed with me for saying so...

 

[ReaperX]

I wasn't impressed with PowerFULL, and USP wasn't impressed with me for saying so...

you know what ? I wasn't impressed with anabolic pump either. go figure.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

test test

 

[whitedevil74]

Isn't a typo in the ingredients for a product fall under 'mislabeling' supplements and illegal ? Even if it is a typo it is not exactly the name of the ingredient. While 99.9% of the IUPAC nomenclature is correct, we all know a number,dash,bond location, etc makes a world difference, but by law, supplements need to have accurate labeling of their products ?

Yes you are correct, also companies are required under the FTC guidelines to list the common name of a product on the ingredient panel, not some obscure chemical name.

 

[xjsynx]

usp, apn, and controlled labs all seem eerily the same to me.

the same as in the way they come across on the internet.

everything they have is amazing, mindblowind, incredible. all this feedback all the time

then you have other well known companies with fantastic products but you don't see nearly as much talk about the products (i am not talking about ergo either)

i dunno, i am just thinking out loud.

For the most part marketing and being part of the 'inner circle'.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

Uh-oh...

Maybe they weren't so far off about that BBB thing:

1: Exp Neurol. 2005 Sep;195(1):267-71. Links
An active transport system in the blood-brain barrier may reduce levodopa availability.Hawkins RA, Mokashi A, Simpson IA.


Levodopa, the primary drug used to treat patients with Parkinson's disease, is transported into the brain by the facilitative amino acid transporter (L1). We present here an unanticipated discovery: levodopa may be pumped out of the brain by a Na(+)-dependent transport system that couples the naturally occurring Na(+) gradient existing between the brain's extracellular fluid and the cytoplasm of capillary endothelial cells. The activity of this system reduces the net availability of levodopa.