What comes after Cycle Support?

CROWLER

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Some would say Post Cycle Support.

The Sinner (he is a member here and other forums) has designed such a supplement for Anabolic Innovations and we are looking for your feedback.

I will let him post more information and we would love to hear your input.

We want to make items which the consumer wants rather than make a supplement and try and convince the consumer to purchase it.

To this end if there is enough interest we will start with a VERY limited number, see how that goes and decide what to do from there.

A HUGE thank you to The Sinner for the hours upon hours of research on this item.


CROWLER
 
thesinner

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Alrighty fellas, here's the ingredients and why we chose them.

Trans-Resveratrol:
This compound is like sliced bread to the supplement industry. There are many different health benefits to come from resveratrol, but we picked it up for one in particular. Resveratrol is capable of modulating estrogenic receptors as well as controlling aromatase, giving it that One Two Punch for estrogen control.[2][3] Research has shown its estrogenic modulation capabilities to increase sperm production by stimulating the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis. [1]

Horny Goat Weed:
Horny Goat Weed (HWG) is a great source of the testosterone mimetic, Icariin. Research on Icariin has shown it to increase circulating testosterone levels as well as improve reproductive organs, making it a great therapeutic for hypoandrogenic states (like right after a steroids cycle). [4]

On top of the testosterone mimetic capabilities of icariin, it also has some very interesting metabolites. In vivo research has shown icariin to metabolize into icaritin and desmethylicaritin. [5] What's great about these guys is the fact that (like resveratrol) are very strong estrogenic receptor antagonists. [6][7]

6-beta-bromoandrostenedione:
You body is working too hard trying to get back your natural testosterone levels to have them be converted into more estrogen. 6-bromo is a strong aromatase inhibitor designed to keep your hard-earned testosterone intact as your HPTA continues to recooperate. It has a very strong selectivity for the aromatase enzyme.

There's an underground following for the use of formestane for post cycle therapy. I mean these people use it religiously. Formestane works great for increasing androgen levels because it not only prevents androgens from converting into estrogens, but significantly lowers the levels of oestradiol, a hormone that inhibits the release of gonadatropins.[8] There's one minor issue with formestane, though. It doesn't have a very good bioavailability and clears out out of the system too quickly with oral administration.[9]

We chose 6-beta-bromoandrostenedione(6b-bA). 6b-bA is a very selective and fast acting inhibitor of the aromatase enzyme. [10][11][12][13] User's have seen great results with lower dosages than oral formestane. Another goodie that comes from using a strong aromatase inhibitor is their capabilities to increase GH hormone release and sensitivity. [14]

Quercetin & Piperine:
Well we've got our pretty sick post cycle therapy stack going here, but there poses one small problem, and that's absorption and bioavailability. Icariin and Resveratrol do not have the greatest bioavailablity in all the land so we gave them a little help with Quercetin and Piperine. Quercetin is used because it is the most potent natural inbitor of estrone sulfanase which degrades compounds like resveratrol. [15] This makes not only aids in absorption, but enhances antiestrogenic activity. Piperine is another addition because it enhances the ability of your intestines to absorb nutrients and phytochemicals. [16] Additionally, piperine may also inhibit the glucuronidase enzyme, another enzyme which degrades resveratrol.[17]

References:
1.trans-Resveratrol, a natural antioxidant from grapes, increases sperm output in healthy rats. Juan ME, González-Pons E, Munuera T, Ballester J, Rodríguez-Gil JE, Planas JM. J Nutr. 2005 Apr;135(4):757-60

2.The red wine polyphenol resveratrol displays bilevel inhibition on aromatase in breast cancer cells. Wang Y, Lee KW, Chan FL, Chen S, Leung LK. Toxicol Sci. 2006 Jul;92(1):71-7. Epub 2006 Apr 11

3.Estrogenic and antiestrogenic properties of resveratrol in mammary tumor models.Bhat KP, Lantvit D, Christov K, Mehta RG, Moon RC, Pezzuto JM. Cancer Res. 2001 Oct 15;61(20):7456-63

4.The testosterone mimetic properties of icariin. Zhang ZB, Yang QT. Asian J Androl. 2006 Sep;8(5):601-5. Epub 2006 Jun 5.

5.Determination of rat urinary metabolites of icariin in vivo and estrogenic activities of its metabolites on MCF-7 cells.Liu J, Ye H, Lou Y. Pharmazie. 2005 Feb;60(2):120-5

6.Estrogenic effects of two derivatives of icariin on human breast cancer MCF-7 cells.Ye HY, Lou YJ. Phytomedicine. 2005 Nov;12(10):735-41

7.Preparation of two derivatives from icariin and investigation of their estrogen-like effects.Ye HY, Liu J, Lou YJ.Zhejiang Da Xue Xue Bao Yi Xue Ban. 2005 Mar;34(2):131-6

8.Comparison of the pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of unformulated and formulated 4-hydroxyandrostenedione taken orally by healthy men.Dowsett M, Lloyd P. Cancer Chemother Pharmacol. 1990;27(1):67-71

9.Dose-related endocrine effects and pharmacokinetics of oral and intramuscular 4-hydroxyandrostenedione in postmenopausal breast cancer patients.Dowsett M, Cunningham DC, Stein RC, Evans S, Dehennin L, Hedley A, Coombes RC.Cancer Res. 1989 Mar 1;49(5):1306-12

10.Synthesis and biochemical properties of 6-bromoandrostenedione derivatives with a 2,2-dimethyl or 2-methyl group as aromatase inhibitors.Numazawa M, Handa W, Yamada K. Biol Pharm Bull. 2004 Nov;27(11):1878-82

11.Stereochemistry of the functional group determines the mechanism of aromatase inhibition by 6-bromoandrostenedione.Osawa Y, Osawa Y, Coon MJ. Endocrinology. 1987 Sep;121(3):1010-6

12.Estrogen synthesis in human breast tumor and its inhibition by testololactone and bromoandrostenedione.Dao TL.Cancer Res. 1982 Aug;42(8 Suppl):3338s-3341s

13.Inhibition of estrogen synthesis in human breast tumors by testololactone and bromoandrostenedione.Budnick RM, Dao TL.Steroids. 1980 May;35(5):533-41

14.The role of growth factor receptor pathways in human breast cancer cells adapted to long-term estrogen deprivation.Sabnis GJ, Jelovac D, Long B, Brodie A. Cancer Res. 2005 May 1;65(9):3903-10

15.Inhibition of estrone sulfatase in human liver microsomes by quercetin and other flavonoids.Huang Z, Fasco MJ, Kaminsky LS. J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 1997 Sep-Oct;63(1-3):9-15

16.Piperine modulates permeability characteristics of intestine by inducing alterations in membrane dynamics: influence on brush border membrane fluidity, ultrastructure and enzyme kinetics.Khajuria A, Thusu N, Zutshi U. Phytomedicine. 2002 Apr;9(3):224-31

17.Impairment of UDP-glucose dehydrogenase and glucuronidation activities in liver and small intestine of rat and guinea pig in vitro by piperine.Reen RK, Jamwal DS, Taneja SC, Koul JL, Dubey RK, Wiebel FJ, Singh J. Biochem Pharmacol. 1993 Jul 20;46(2):229-38.
 
matthew76

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need a lab-rat? let me know sinner - looks VERY promising!

great job bro!
 

Jstrong20

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I can't wait to see the results with the product. I'm very interested in the resveratrol. It will be awesome if it lives up to all the hype it has been getting recently.
 
slow-mun

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This looks to be a very solid product and I have to commend you guys(Anabolic Innovations) for listening to the public on this one.
 
thesinner

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50% t res? And how much of each ingredient?
it's probably gonna be 50% resveratrol extract unless we get a phat deal on a better extract, but that's probably not gonna happen.

Tentatively the dosage of actives (on a daily basis) are gonna be:
resveratrol: 500mg
Horny Goat weed: 500mg
6-bromo: 40mg
Quercetin: 1200mg
Piperine: 10-15mg

Costs have not been completely calculated yet (as far as I know). One of our goals is to make this a supplement that you can actually afford, so we're gonna go with the greatest cost:benefits ratios we can get our hands on.
 
CROWLER

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Thanks for the praise, it should be going all to The Sinner

As to the amount of each item, what extract etc rest assured we will NOT skimp on the dosages. Just as Cycle Support has the dosages that are optimum we will do the same with POST Cycle Support.

This means it will cost a considerable amount to produce but as The Sinner says we want the price to be within reason. This is what was done with Cycle Support.

This is alos why it is tough to get with the big distributors but hey no body accused me of being a good businessman, just giving the customer what they want :)


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thesinner

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Seriously CROWLER, you've been putting up with my shananagans for like 2 straight months over this product. That takes more than virtues.
 
riseboi

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it's probably gonna be 50% resveratrol extract unless we get a phat deal on a better extract, but that's probably not gonna happen.

Tentatively the dosage of actives (on a daily basis) are gonna be:
resveratrol: 500mg
Icariin: 500-600mg
6-bromo: 40mg
Quercetin: 1200mg
Piperine: 10-15mg

Costs have not been completely calculated yet (as far as I know). One of our goals is to make this a supplement that you can actually afford, so we're gonna go with the greatest cost:benefits ratios we can get our hands on.
Thank you. I hope yall do a test run. I look forward to the final profile.
 
thesinner

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I'll be on until about 11pm Eastern Standard Time to tend to any questions, comments or concerns. After that, you'll have to wait until tomorrow morning.

And before anyone asks, Goat semen was omited from the formula because the FDA does not allow it to be sold for human consumption.
 
matthew76

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I'll be on until about 11pm Eastern Standard Time to tend to any questions, comments or concerns. After that, you'll have to wait until tomorrow morning.

And before anyone asks, Goat semen was omited from the formula because the FDA does not allow it to be sold for human consumption.

I guess TRIP will be upset with that!
 
Leggo my Ego

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Nice work sinner and crowler!! I'll be looking forward to this! When you anticipate this will be available??
 

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Looks very promising. Good job TheSinner/Crowler!
 
neoborn

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Nice. I love how you guys have discussed this openly and are willing to jump into the mix with a new creative product....Push Dem Boundreez!

Much Love,

Neoborn

P.s. If you need a tester let me know! ;)
 
Rodja

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Definitely a wonderful idea. Kudos to sinner and Crowler for not only making this supplement, but for their tireless efforts.:head:
 
edvanp

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Looks solid and it appears you have plenty of wanna-be testers on here :thumbsup:
 
CROWLER

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Nice work sinner and crowler!! I'll be looking forward to this! When you anticipate this will be available??
We are looking for feedback on the ingredients and doses then we will get going on having it produced. Haven't seen any objections or suggestions yet so maybe it is good to go as is.


CROWLER
 

PumpingIron

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I don't know if I like 6-bromo in PCT, personally.
 
CROWLER

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Pumping Iron,

Could you tell us why?

Thanks


CROWLER
 

PumpingIron

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Also, I see you are basically trying to bring your boys back, how about putting some liver support in there because we all should be running a serm at the same time...
 

PumpingIron

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Pumping Iron,

Could you tell us why?

Thanks


CROWLER

IMO, it may have the ability to induce shutdown on a small level. I believe PA has spoken about this previously.
 
CROWLER

CROWLER

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Also, I see you are basically trying to bring your boys back, how about putting some liver support in there because we all should be running a serm at the same time...
We would love to put all sorts of things in the product but there are limiting factors like price and amount of ingredients. For liver support I would recommend Cycle Support ;)


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matthew76

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Product sounds promising any way you look at it... Sinner/Crowler - good job!
 
CROWLER

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IMO, it may have the ability to induce shutdown on a small level. I believe PA has spoken about this previously.

Actually PA has said it is reasonable that 6-bromo is a great standalone like formestane (but good orally!)
6-bromo doesn't hinder post cycle therapy, 6-bromo gives slight test elevation, doesn't crush estrogen.

Dr D has also said he believes in 6 Bromo for Post Cycle Therapy.


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thesinner

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Also, I see you are basically trying to bring your boys back, how about putting some liver support in there because we all should be running a serm at the same time...
emphasis on should. One of the primary goals with this project was to design something that be the 'next best option' for those 800million newbs doing their 3-4 week halodrol cycles without a SERM because "they can't get one".
 
thesinner

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6-bromo is going to be less suppressive than formestane.

It's active is a very weak androgen (like 25% that of testosterone), and it has a very high affinity for the aromatase enzyme. So it wants to bind to aromatase more than AR's.
 
RenegadeRows

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Post Cycle Support ... Great idea & formula!!!:thumbsup:
 
CROWLER

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Exactly. There are many people using the prohormones/prosteroids who for whatever reason do not want to use research chems.

They buy their Cycle product from NutraPlanet, or Custom Nutrition Warehouse and they would like to be able to get their Post Cycle Therapy items all at once place.

Post Cycle Support will give them that choice. It is not the product for everyone, we will see if it has a place in the market.


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CROWLER

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Hello Matthew,

I would LOVE to tell you it will be ready by then but I hate to promise items will be ready and then disappoint.

I would say it will be a bit longer.

CROWLER
 
matthew76

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Thanks for being straight up - maybe next PCT

Def. trying this out! I hate using "research chems"
 

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Crowler, I fully understand not putting in any liver support (kinda like overlapping products and it makes more sense not to).

Less supressive then Formestane doesn't really cut it for me, on a personal level, only not supressive at all. Jomi just posted a thread concerning ATD and PCT and the negative effects that can be prevelant.

If I were to make this product all it would contain is a cortisol blocker, natural test boosters, possibly some type of GH booster, liver support and reservatol...I don't think you can replace a SERM in any PCT and putting the idea into new guy's brains might not be the best idea.

Now the product you have seems like something I would run maybe 4th to 5th week of PCT, but this is all my opinion, so please please please don't think I am bashing this product at all, just how I would create it. The concept is amazing, none-the-less.
 
CROWLER

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Post Cycle Support ... Great idea & formula!!!:thumbsup:
Glad you like it!

Thanks goes to the people who have been asking for this sort of product for a while now and to The Sinner.


CROWLER
 
harrellt

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Cycle Support

Crowler,

You guys thought about using Stevia or some other natural sweetner vs. Splenda? I would love to use cycle support but am allergic to sucralose/maltodextrin.
Just asking :thumbsup:
 
lennoxchi

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i've got a couple of cycles coming up in winter let me know if you need a tester.....not to be confused with a testie...
 
Travis

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Great thread. Like PI just said some form of cort control would be nice. Also im curious since this is an oral product what the half life of the res will be? My understanding of it is that it wouldnt be very long.
 
Travis

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Great thread. Like PI just said some form of cort control would be nice. Also im curious since this is an oral product what the half life of the res will be? My understanding of it is that it wouldnt be very long.
 
Big BAMA

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Let me know if you need a guinea pig. Good Job Sinner!!!!!:thumbsup:
 
Jayhawkk

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Crowler has a long standing reputation for talking with the bbing community and working with products that we would want with nothing we don't. While I can give praise for both Crowler and Sinner for working on this...this is nothing new coming from AI.
 
thesinner

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Great thread. Like PI just said some form of cort control would be nice. Also im curious since this is an oral product what the half life of the res will be? My understanding of it is that it wouldnt be very long.
Straight resveratrol has an oral half life of about 2 hours. The second link posted says 77% is lost after 4 hours, which would equate to about 2 half lives.

What kills the half life is it's conversion into resveratrol-3-sulfate and resveratrol monoglucuronides. Because of this, we've added Quercetin and Piperine, which inhibit such conversion. During the urine analysis, the metabolites outnumbered actual resveratrol 23:1. So by blocking conversion, we can increase the half life a whole bunch.

Just for fun, I played around with these numbers (based on the data we were given) to see how much longer it would be if we 100% prevented degradation:

77% excreted * 1resveratrol/23 metabolites * 1 half life/0.5resveratrol* 4 hours/ 4 hour test period = 0.26 half lives/4 hour test period = 1 half life per 16 hours.

[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17548692&ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum


[2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=15333514&ordinalpos=6&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
 
xjsynx

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Interested.

Another questions is PA states that 6OX has the amount of res in the studies, and a Serving in 6OX is Resveratrol 50% 1200mg

So would you say PCS would be under dosed in the Res department?

I also agree with PI with a cortisol support.
 

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