Shutdown supplement questions

[dhuge67]

I think I have shutdown happening from Havoc/Epistane and don't know what to do. Is it okay to continue with the cycle while being shut down? If so, how long? Also, I am not quite sure about what dose of Nolvadex I should use in PCT. I was thinking of running a 4 week PCT with Nolvadex (the real SERM), Retain 2, and a natural test booster.

Would 50, 25, 25, 25 be okay with the Nolva?

Thanks all, I'm just kinda worried about the "shut down.":rant:

 

[john123131]

how long have you been on cycle?

 

[dhuge67]

how long have you been on cycle?

Just at 4 full weeks now. Was planning to go up to 8.

 

[EctoPower]

Just at 4 full weeks now. Was planning to go up to 8.

How much research did you do before starting this cycle? From what I've seen, 4 weeks is standard for an oral. 6-8 weeks if you pulse it, but it doesn't sound like that's what you're doing. Technically you can keep going when you are shutdown and bring your testes back during PCT, but if you've already gone 4 full weeks, I bet it's time for PCT.

I'll let somebody else address Nolva dosing, since I don't know.

 

[bitterplacebo]

You can still go on if you're shutdown, but typically, you should be cautious if going for more than 4 weeks. If you're feeling fine, you can do 5 or 6 weeks, but then you'd probably find it harder to recover during post cycle therapy. Then after an extended cycle, you'd want to take more time off before any other cycle compared to how long you'd wait after a 4 week one.

For Nolvadex, it's typically something like 40/30/20/20(or 10 depending on how well it's going). With higher doses of it, you will see diminishing returns for stimulating your testicular functions out of suppression, while creating a more toxic environment for your liver.

 

[ThisGuy02]

The safe route with Nolva is 40/40/20/20, but as bp said earlier, if you're feeling right, you can go 40/30/20/10. Since you're not even off cycle yet and you feel shut down, I'd say go with the first.

your question begs a whole other question though...do you already have it on hand?? If so, I'd agree that you should get off and start post cycle therapy immediately. 4 weeks is standard. Some guys go for 6 weeks sometimes, I recently did it with Halo, TRN and Zol, but that was bridging one to the other. I just don't know that you should run Epi for as long as 6 or 8 weeks.

If you don't have it, stay on and get some Nolva rushed, and hopefully you can get off after 5, but more likely will have to wait 2 weeks for it to arrive, and get off at 6.

 

[dhuge67]

The safe route with Nolva is 40/40/20/20, but as bp said earlier, if you're feeling right, you can go 40/30/20/10. Since you're not even off cycle yet and you feel shut down, I'd say go with the first.

your question begs a whole other question though...do you already have it on hand?? If so, I'd agree that you should get off and start post cycle therapy immediately. 4 weeks is standard. Some guys go for 6 weeks sometimes, I recently did it with Halo, TRN and Zol, but that was bridging one to the other. I just don't know that you should run Epi for as long as 6 or 8 weeks.

If you don't have it, stay on and get some Nolva rushed, and hopefully you can get off after 5, but more likely will have to wait 2 weeks for it to arrive, and get off at 6.

Thanks for the tips. I have everything for PCT except for Retain for cortisol control. Could I begin PCT without it and add it in when it gets here (should be here by Friday at the latest)?

 

[xjsynx]

Thanks for the tips. I have everything for post cycle therapy except for Retain for cortisol control. Could I begin PCT without it and add it in when it gets here (should be here by Friday at the latest)?

I would think so. The main thing is the serm and a t-booster.

 

[ThisGuy02]

I would think so. The main thing is the serm and a t-booster.

I agree. You could definitely start without the Retain and just bring it in once you get it, but I'd get off now if you've got the PCT supplies in stock.

 

[PumpingIron]

You guys do realize that every steroid is going to shut you down to some point, right?

 

[dhuge67]

I agree. You could definitely start without the Retain and just bring it in once you get it, but I'd get off now if you've got the post cycle therapy supplies in stock.

Alright, as I took 20 mg already today, I'll just take 20 mg before my workout and then that'll be it. I'll dose 25mg of Nolva tomorrow morning and then 15 mg more before bed.

 

[TheNinja]

n/m

 

[PumpingIron]

n/m

When your hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis is no longer working or is not working efficiently...

and no, you're fine.

 

[TheNinja]

When your hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis is no longer working or is not working efficiently...

and no, you're fine.

heh...sorry I edited it after you must have quoted it - for those wondering, I was basically asking "what is shutdown" and "do I have to worry about it if I'm taking stuff like Leviathan, RPM, and soon to do IGF-2"

 

[PumpingIron]

thanks, i probably looked like a crazy guy

 

[dhuge67]

When your hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis is no longer working or is not working efficiently...

and no, you're fine.

Well, my HPTA is shot. So no, I'm no longer having my period, to be scientific about it. :lol:

 

[ThisGuy02]

Alright, as I took 20 mg already today, I'll just take 20 mg before my workout and then that'll be it. I'll dose 25mg of Nolva tomorrow morning and then 15 mg more before bed.

No need to split up the nolva dose, dude. take all 40 in one shot in the morning, continue for 2 weeks, then after 2 drop to a 20mg dose and continue for 2 weeks.

 

[dhuge67]

No need to split up the nolva dose, dude. take all 40 in one shot in the morning, continue for 2 weeks, then after 2 drop to a 20mg dose and continue for 2 weeks.

I have read that it is not necessary to dose above 20 mg a day unless you have gyno issues.

 

[Synicus]

heh...sorry I edited it after you must have quoted it - for those wondering, I was basically asking "what is shutdown" and "do I have to worry about it if I'm taking stuff like Leviathan, RPM, and soon to do IGF-2"

Yeah, what is "shutdown." Ya got small balls? Leviathan ingredients look good for Post Cycle Therapy, RPM too, don't know about IFG-2....

If it was me I woulda nixed the Nolva and ordered some Toremefine pronto, get ya up and goin in 3-5 days. Since I got so much Nolva $$$ my Post Cycle Therps for a while will prob be:

wk 1: Tor $$$
wk 2: Nolva (cheaper than Tor)
wk 3: Nolva
wk 4: Nolva

Aren't havoc/epistane the same compound? Anyways, yur already started so gluck. Don't know hepatoxicity comparisons well between Tor and Nolva just like results of Tor better.

 

[Travis]

What did you dose it at? I see no reason to stop if your dosing it like at 20/20/30/30 or something low like that. There are guys on here that have doses it at 50mg for 6 weeks I believe.

Also why do I suddenly see people suggesting taking your SERM in the morning? My understanding is that its best to take your full daily dosage before bed when your opportunity for recovery is optimal.

 

[ThisGuy02]

I have read that it is not necessary to dose above 20 mg a day unless you have gyno issues.

Well, it's up to you, dude. I've never heard that. I have however researched extensively over the years and the 40/40/20/20 and 40/30/20/10 schemes are by and large the undisputed way to pct.

 

[Travis]

Well, it's up to you, dude. I've never heard that. I have however researched extensively over the years and the 40/40/20/20 and 40/30/20/10 schemes are by and large the undisputed way to post cycle therapy.

I have heard of this and people usually dose it b/c of concerns with toxicity. I believe there is a pretty good article on meso discussing this. And yeah the schemes you mentioned really are the most common around here.

 

[PumpingIron]

Trav, you're using a methylated steroid (in this case) and you're worried about toxicity? Seems kind of ironic, doesn't it?

My scheme is 60 for 3 days, then 40/30/20/10...

 

[Travis]

Trav, you're using a methylated steroid (in this case) and you're worried about toxicity? Seems kind of ironic, doesn't it?

My scheme is 60 for 3 days, then 40/30/20/10...

Ironic, yes. But why extend an already toxic oral cycle by overdosing a toxic SERM... For the record I have dosed nolva in the 40,30,30,20 method. There are a lot of experienced guys around here like yourself that reccomend this dosing protocol and Im not about to dispute that. I guess its just food for thought!

 

[PumpingIron]

True, but running ancillaries and not hurting yourself through extraneous things like alcohol and other drugs, you should be fine.

 

[FrankJ]

Your body needs testosterone to function at 100%. Thats why most steroid users include testosterone as part of the cycle. Us "oral only" guys cant handle the cycle lengths of the "injectable" guys, who will see much greater gains over the long run.

Of course you can continue to run longer oral cycles but you will feel more and more like sh1t as your liver works harder and your body goes without its main androgenic hormone.

Personally I have tried 6 week oral cycles and the last 2 weeks I felt pretty bad so I will stick to 4 weeks if I do it again.

 

[bpmartyr]

Also why do I suddenly see people suggesting taking your SERM in the morning? My understanding is that its best to take your full daily dosage before bed when your opportunity for recovery is optimal.

Time of day is inconsequential due to it's long half-life. Dose whenever. With AI's however, it is often recommended to dose those in the evening at a time when aromatase will be at it's peak.

 

[lennoxchi]

dhuge....just outta couriosity...what t-boost r u going with?

 

[ThisGuy02]

Time of day is inconsequential due to it's long half-life. Dose whenever. With AI's however, it is often recommended to dose those in the evening at a time when aromatase will be at it's peak.

That was what I had always understood, although I guess I could also see the point of splitting it up.

 

[Travis]

True, but running ancillaries and not hurting yourself through extraneous things like alcohol and other drugs, you should be fine.

Agree completely. And I personally think that the toxicity of some orals is a bit exaggerated. But I'm new to this game so I have limited experience to base that on.

Its the irresponsible that probably cause these fears.

 

[Travis]

Time of day is inconsequential due to it's long half-life. Dose whenever. With AI's however, it is often recommended to dose those in the evening at a time when aromatase will be at it's peak.

Cool! I dont know why I was thinking that....perhaps I was confusing with AI dosing. Thanks for clearing that up bro.

 

[dhuge67]

6-oxo and Biotest's trib product (1 tab per day out of a possible 4).