Diindolin

EasyEJL

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This is a partial from an article

Diindolin contains DIM associated with a special matrix that improves absorption. The daily usage of a 300 milligram dosage of Diindolin approximately equals the DIM obtainable from 2-4 pounds of raw broccoli. This supplement is clearly useful not only for people that just don't like cruciferous vegetables such as broccoli, but also don't want to eat several pounds of it each day to ingest beneficial levels of DIM.

By increasing the levels of beneficial 2-hydroxy estrogens, the testosterone/estrogen ratio is increased in favor of testosterone. More importantly from an anabolic point of view, the level of free testosterone rises in the blood with use of DIM. The mechanism behind this is that 2-hydroxy estrogens have a greater binding affinity for the blood proteins that "lock up" testosterone in the blood. Thus, these plasma binding proteins instead latch on to 2-hydroxy, leaving greater levels of free testosterone, including that produced through the use of supplemental prohormones. The 2-hydroxy estrogens promoted by DIM usage also increase testosterone synthesis through another mechanism. Estrogen, even more than testosterone itself, incurs a negative hormonal feedback loop to the pituitary gland, where the rate-limiting gonadotropin for testosterone synthesis, luteinizing hormone (LH) is synthesized and released. What this means is that high blood levels of estrogen, as may occur through aromatization of free testosterone, turn off the release of LH from the pituitary gland. This leads to a vicious biochemical cycle characterized by an imbalance between testosterone and estrogen in favor of the latter. These events, however, are nullified by 2-hydroxy, which doesn't provide the negative feedback message to the pituitary induced by estrogen. The net effect is greater testosterone synthesis in the Leydig cells of the testes, as well as lower levels of bad estrogen and all the effects that go with it. DIM differs from other natural substances currently touted to decrease estrogen levels, such as the soy isoflavones, genistein and diadzen. DIM, while promoting the synthesis of beneficial estrogens, such as 2-dehydroxy, isn't itself a phytoestrogen or an estrogen mimic as are the soy isoflavones. Thus, there is no danger of a paradoxical estrogen-agonist or pro-estrogen effect with DIM as can possibly occur in some cases with soy isoflavones. Diindolin also helps to burn fat through extending the activity of catecholamines, such as epinephrine and norepinephrine. These hormones help the body oxidize fat through interacting with beta-adrenergic fat cell receptors. This leads to an enzymatic cascade resulting in the release of free fatty acids into the blood. However, catecholamines are rapidly degraded by an enzyme called catechol-O-methyl transference (COMT). This same enzyme also metabolizes 2-hydroxy estrogens. An increase in 2-hydroxy estrogens, such as that induced by Diindolin, will promote a competitive inhibition effect with the catecholamine and COMT, leading to less rapid breakdown of catecholamines and thus enhanced fat mobilization. The implications of this process are that Diindolin will serve to potentiate the increased catecholamine secretion that normally occurs during exercise. It will also provide synergistic fat oxidizing effects when combined with a ephedrine-caffeine stack, since this stack works by also increasing the release of catecholamines.

Keeping DHEA honest DHEA, an adrenal androgen, was the first of the prohormone supplements to be marketed. The problem with DHEA, however, is that it isn't as direct a precursor for conversion into testosterone as is the supplements released later, such as androstenedione. DHEA, while capable of being converted into testosterone, can also take divergent pathways, such as conversion into estrogen or DHT. This is particularly true in men under age 40. Since DHEA also offers various health benefits, such as a heightened immune response and increased insulin sensitivity, the problem of possible conversion into estrogen by way of aromatase enzyme is a daunting one.

Diindolin can once again offer benefits by promoting the conversion of any estrogen produced as a result of DHEA usage into the beneficial 2-dehydroxy form, which if anything, would provide synergistic health benefits with DHEA usage. As noted earlier, Diindolin, through increasing 2-hydroxy synthesis, blunts the effects of estrogen in promoting prostate enlargement. It is synergistic with other phytochemicals that prevent prostate enlargement, such as saw palmetto (which blocks conversion of testosterone into DHT), green tea, pygeum africanum, and stinging nettle.

Diindolin may also increase insulin response. By potentiating catecholamines, Diindolin can increase carbohydrate clearance and "reset" the insulin system to a lower starting point. This effect, in turn, increases the response of insulin to high glycemic carbohydrates or simple sugars. Since such simple sugars are needed to promote uptake and absorption of creatine into muscle through a insulin-stimulated muscle creatine uptake carrier, the increased insulin response promoted by Diindolin serves to increase creatine supplemental efficacy. Diindolin also may increase workout recovery. Studies show that estrogen appears to limit muscle damage induced by intense training. The damage may be incurred by increased free radical release from the upgraded oxygen intake typical during exercise. These free radicals damage cell membranes, leading to an inflammation discernable as muscle soreness.

One of the good things about estrogen is that it is a potent free radical quencher. Evidence shows that you can obtain this same protective effect of estrogen minus the negative aspects with 2-hydroxy estrogen metabolites promoted by Diindolin. Studies show that dietary antioxidants, such as vitamin E, increase exercise recovery by minimizing the inflammatory effects of free radical release during exercise. The 2-hydroxy estrogens are even more potent in their free radical-quenching effect than vitamin E. Thus, by relieving muscle inflammation after exercise, Diindolin may speed exercise recovery. Add it all up and you can only draw one conclusion: the future of DIM or more precisely, Diindolin, looks bright!



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(0)Farnsworth WE. Roles of estrogen and SHBG in prostate physiology.
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(11)Gamet-Payrastre L, et al. Selective cytostatic and cytotoxic effects of glucosinolate hydrolyisis products on human colon cancer cells in vitro. Anti-cancer Drugs 1998;9:141-48. (12)Zumoff B, et al. Estradiol transformation in men with breast cancer. J Clin Endocrin Metabol 1966;26:960-66.
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(17) Jellinck PH, et al. Ah receptor binding propertis of indole carbinols and induction of hepatic estrodiol hydroxylation. Biochem pharmacol 1993;45;1129-36.
 
thebigt

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diesel test has a nice amount of dim. this is also one of the new ingredients in activate extreme. well actually its indole 3 c. this has a lot of untapped potential. chuck diesel has been pushing this for awhile now, glad it may now be catching on. nice post.
 
EasyEJL

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diesel test has a nice amount of dim. this is also one of the new ingredients in activate extreme. well actually its indole 3 c. this has a lot of untapped potential. chuck diesel has been pushing this for awhile now, glad it may now be catching on. nice post.
ah I didn't notice that in DT, that makes it even more interesting
 
Chuck Diesel

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diesel test has a nice amount of dim. this is also one of the new ingredients in activate extreme. well actually its indole 3 c. this has a lot of untapped potential. chuck diesel has been pushing this for awhile now, glad it may now be catching on. nice post.
activate xtreme contains indole-3-carbinol (13c). DIM comes from 13c.
 
thebigt

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activate xtreme contains indole-3-carbinol (13c). DIM comes from 13c.
lot of people get technical about things, thats why i worded it the way i did. but you are right of course. i think your products are very under- rated, think i will give dt another go. btw i had great results on trib test. good luck, i appreciate your straight up approach to merchandising.
 

Hyde12

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I have heard that DIM is an anti-androgen by way that it decreases DHT? Is this true? I have taken dim at 400 mgs per day and I felt a drop in libido as well as erection quality.
 
Chuck Diesel

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lot of people get technical about things, thats why i worded it the way i did. but you are right of course. i think your products are very under- rated, think i will give dt another go. btw i had great results on trib test. good luck, i appreciate your straight up approach to merchandising.
From what I know is that u need 400mg to 600mg of DIM a day for any results BUT DIM has a really low bioavail. because its not fat or water soluble. Also DIM is expensive (over $200/kg even from China) with the good stuff from Europe at like $500-$700kg. So u see something like people using 13c instead or DIM but about 100mg a day or less. With 13C u need more than the DIM dosage, but I havent seen to much studies about 2-hydroxy estrogens, COMT, etc., done with 13C, mostly just anti-cancer cell research (with 13C). Its not a certain percentage of 13c thats DIM, DIM is metabolite of 13c.
 
thebigt

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here what i have in mind, after pct on my furazadrol cycle. going to try dt/trib test together. trib test worked great for me. i think i will react better to dt this way.
 
Chuck Diesel

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here what i have in mind, after post cycle therapy on my furazadrol cycle. going to try dt/trib test together. trib test worked great for me. i think i will react better to dt this way.
Well DT hardcore is more like DT 2010 and Trib test stacked, but TRib test with DTH would be crazy!
 
thebigt

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Well DT hardcore is more like DT 2010 and Trib test stacked, but TRib test with DTH would be crazy!
you ever try it? i been off creatine for a while so stacking those 2 sounds very promising.
 
Chuck Diesel

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you ever try it? i been off creatine for a while so stacking those 2 sounds very promising.
Try what? DTH and Trib Test? No, I cant tol. 5 DTH/day get very aggressive. I might try 4 DTH and 2 Trib/day. Creatine?
 
thebigt

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sorry, thought this was the one with creatine added. just looked at the formula, damn. this looks like your best one yet. i will definately be trying this out. what else whould i need for pct of a light cycle of furazadrol? maybe reduce xt. think i might just try this for pct, damn chuck you got everything but the kitchen sink in there. very nice. pct=dth/trib test/reduce xt, what you think, that cover it?
 
Chuck Diesel

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sorry, thought this was the one with creatine added. just looked at the formula, damn. this looks like your best one yet. i will definately be trying this out. what else whould i need for post cycle therapy of a light cycle of furazadrol? maybe reduce xt. think i might just try this for post cycle therapy, damn chuck you got everything but the kitchen sink in there. very nice. post cycle therapy=dth/trib test/reduce xt, what you think, that cover it?

I dont know what Reduce xt is, but if its an anti estogen, you dont need an anti-estogen with DIESEL TEST. I know the thing around here is the more products in the stack the better, but I would go with DTH/Trib test (5 DTH/2 Trib/day) or just DTH 6 tabs a day, or DTH/trib test/NOS Precursor. But thats over the top for a light cycle post cycle therapy, but a good stack.

Thats a little O/T on this tread so PM me about the stack or do another thread (please). I ever want to be responsible for a thread going another direction, esp. if it looks like a "high jack."
 
EasyEJL

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eh, its ok, this thread hadn't gotten any life beforehand anyhow :)
 
thebigt

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sorry easy, got carried away. chuck im going with that for pct, will post it. im done.
 

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From what I know is that u need 400mg to 600mg of DIM a day for any results BUT DIM has a really low bioavail. because its not fat or water soluble. Also DIM is expensive (over $200/kg even from China) with the good stuff from Europe at like $500-$700kg. So u see something like people using 13c instead or DIM but about 100mg a day or less. With 13C u need more than the DIM dosage, but I havent seen to much studies about 2-hydroxy estrogens, COMT, etc., done with 13C, mostly just anti-cancer cell research (with 13C). Its not a certain percentage of 13c thats DIM, DIM is metabolite of 13c.
Here is some life for this thread.
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2002/jan2002_report_i3c_01.html
again this is anti-cancer research mostly but still makes I3C seem more desireable. Chuck do you have the research showing DIM is the better test booster or anything? These two products interest me, help me figure out which is better.
 
thebigt

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chuck has been an advocate of dim for quite awhile now. since dim is what makes 13c effective i am going with dth. seems like the other companys are just now starting to play catch-up. look for dim/1c3 to start showing up in a lot of products. i think chuck deserves credit. sorry chuck, didnt mean to speak out of turn.
 

jasonschaffin

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did you read the LEF article I posted. DIM may not even be the most important part of I3C. Thats why I want Chuck's answers so I can easier choose b/w ActivaTE Extreme and DTH
 
thebigt

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did you read the LEF article I posted. DIM may not even be the most important part of I3C. Thats why I want Chuck's answers so I can easier choose b/w ActivaTE Extreme and DTH
i have found that for every article you find advocating one side, there are always more promoting the other. nice find, i read the article. i agree with you, waiting for chucks response.:thumbsup:
 
Chuck Diesel

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chuck has been an advocate of dim for quite awhile now. since dim is what makes 13c effective i am going with dth. seems like the other companys are just now starting to play catch-up. look for dim/1c3 to start showing up in a lot of products. i think chuck deserves credit. sorry chuck, didnt mean to speak out of turn.
Yeah same with resveratrol, Ive been using that in products since 2002 for alot of reason people are starting to use it now....but some are leading people to believe trans-res. is something like nolva when its not.
 
Chuck Diesel

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Here is some life for this thread.
Le Magazine, January 2002 - Report: I3C Vs Dim
again this is anti-cancer research mostly but still makes I3C seem more desireable. Chuck do you have the research showing DIM is the better test booster or anything? These two products interest me, help me figure out which is better.
Well DIM isnt a "test booster" per se. It helps reduce 2-hydroxy estrogen and actually increases free test. There is some other ben. to DIM but I wont post them because alot of companies want to know stuff like that. I would just say like someone else said, every benifit of 13c is probably because of DIM. I think people just use 13c because its cheaper then piggy back on the DIM research. Its like using DHEA but said it acts like 7-keto DHEA.

If 13c was better for estogen effects it would be in DIESEL TEST.
 

jasonschaffin

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Hey Chuck glad to see ya here. Hoping for your DIM>I3C input. Hopefully w/studies.
 
Chuck Diesel

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Here is some life for this thread.
Le Magazine, January 2002 - Report: I3C Vs Dim
again this is anti-cancer research mostly but still makes I3C seem more desireable. Chuck do you have the research showing DIM is the better test booster or anything? These two products interest me, help me figure out which is better.
That article shows it may be more diesireable for anti-cancer usage. If 13c was better in a nat. test boosting/estrogen control formula it would be in DIESEL TEST. I got lab work form testers at bb.com and everyone that tested estrodiol showed a high reduction in estrogen. So anyway I cant tell you im an expert on 13c versus DIM. Like I said DHEA versus 7-keto DHEA for fat loss.

http://forum. bodybui lding .com/showthread.php?t=612113

also a huge problem with 13c and DIM is bioavail. taking bulk DIM or 13c might not do anything orally anyway (or in a capsule). DIESEL TEST is enteric coated and time released and one reason for that is for better uptake of DIM.
 
thebigt

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i believe you when you say if 13c was better it would be in dth. i am going to trust dth for pct. damn that ingredient profile looks good. 2 more weeks on furazadrol then will post dth review. 1 question, when do i start dth? after last day of cycle, or pre load it the last week? thanks guys, lot of good info here. to bad more people dont do more research on the stuff they are taking.
 
Chuck Diesel

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i believe you when you say if 13c was better it would be in dth. i am going to trust dth for post cycle therapy. damn that ingredient profile looks good. 2 more weeks on furazadrol then will post dth review. 1 question, when do i start dth? after last day of cycle, or pre load it the last week? thanks guys, lot of good info here. to bad more people dont do more research on the stuff they are taking.
I would start with 3 DTH the last 3 days of cycle, 1am, 1mid, 1pm, then when cycle over go to 2/2/1 on DTH or 2/2/2 but dont take pm dose after 4pm or you prob. wont be able to sleep. Give updates im sure u will love it for pct.
 
thebigt

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thanks chuck, i am going to try dth solo for pct. only thing i might add is cort control-maybe reduce xt, or retain.
 
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thanks chuck, i am going to try dth solo for post cycle therapy. only thing i might add is cort control-maybe reduce xt, or retain.
T you are freaking everywhere on this board when you are in "planning mode." You ask some kick a$$ questions that lead to really creative stacks.

I've been hearing about I3C for a while now but this is by far the best explanation that I've found... thanks to Chuck and the OP for the info.

T, why DTH solo without the trib test? You talkin OLD retain or retain 2? I think you mentioned that you liked the old one better. Why was that again? :think:
 
thebigt

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chuck seems to think that dth is good enough by itself. i can always add trib test later, i really like that stuff. i have to go with retain2, i dont think original retain is available anymore. there it is, its official. dth/retain2/rpm for pct. that is the lightest stack ive ever ran, but i am going to give it a go. chuck has really sold me on this. im almost out of incarnate and powerful so that is the complete list of supps i will be using. damn i feel naked already.
 
EasyEJL

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I think after my t-force is done, i'm going to have to order a bottle or two of DTH
 
thebigt

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I think after my t-force is done, i'm going to have to order a bottle or two of DTH
how is the t-force going? A DUMBASS rep at bb.com is making it sound like gear. haha. what sold me on diesel test-no advertising, no reps. its all word of mouth. if diesel wasnt putting out good stuff he wouldnt have stuck around this long.:cheers:
 
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one of the same ones who dogged me out over at that child care center. :wave:
 
dtrain13

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Yeah same with resveratrol, Ive been using that in products since 2002 for alot of reason people are starting to use it now....but some are leading people to believe trans-res. is something like nolva when its not.
Chuck, do you think t-res would be more bio available in an enteric coated tabs or caps?
 

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I have heard that DIM is an anti-androgen by way that it decreases DHT? Is this true? I have taken dim at 400 mgs per day and I felt a drop in libido as well as erection quality.
I have been experiencing the same thing (drop in libido and erection quality) since I have been taking DIM and Chrysine combo. I recently got off both and have noticed a positive effect (in the right direction!). Didn't put it together until I read your post - maybe it is having the same effect on me. Anyone else experience this? I was taking about 500mg of DIM and 1 gm of Chrysin in two different doeses with 5 mg bioperine each dose.
 
thebigt

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I'm curious as to who compared t-force to gear or was making it sound like gear. Because Omega has no reps and of the 4 people who logged it two were reps myself and a guy who just resigned from SAN. So if you're speaking about me, I'd like to know.
dtrain, i made the mistake of straying into the land of teenage know it all's, wont make that mistake again. am is like home to me, let there be peace.:thumbsup:
 
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I have been experiencing the same thing (drop in libido and erection quality) since I have been taking DIM and Chrysine combo. I recently got off both and have noticed a positive effect (in the right direction!). Didn't put it together until I read your post - maybe it is having the same effect on me. Anyone else experience this? I was taking about 500mg of DIM and 1 gm of Chrysin in two different doeses with 5 mg bioperine each dose.
the drop in libido sounds like the effect atd has on some people, is dim that strong? were you taking it as a standalone or for pct?
 

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the drop in libido sounds like the effect atd has on some people, is dim that strong? were you taking it as a standalone or for post cycle therapy?
Most recently as a stand alone (with chrysine and bioperene). I have noticed the same drop in libido when taking atd (rebound xt) for pct.
 
thebigt

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You still didn't answer my question. If you're going to be talking **** and calling people names you should be able to back up your words and not hide behind some self proclaimed declaration of "keep the peace" when in fact "the peace" around here is not in danger at all. I'm not here to argue with you I'm just looking for clarification on one of your previous posts. Because neither statement couldn't be farther from the truth. I am hardly a dumb ass and I never said anything remotely close to "t-force is like gear". So man up and support your statement or maybe you need to think before you throw stones from here on out.

BTW here is a link to my log on T-Force here at AM...

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/67679-omega-t-force.html
look man, i never once said 'dtrain' said anything. not interested in pissing contest. man up-grow up. i know that is how they act in kiddie land,and thats why i will never go back there. :head:
 
thebigt

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I know you didn't specifically state "dtrain" thats why I asked who are you talking about. I need to grow up??!! You're the one doing the name calling and insinuating so maybe you need to look in the mirror. Oh BTW I'm hardly a kid and I'm very much grown. Become a father (if you're already not) and you'll grow up pretty quick.
look dtrain, i hope you had a better reason to hijack this thread than to harass me! if you want to continue this, pm me. it seems you have some kind of agenda that doesnt seem productive to this thread.
 
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http://anaboinds.com/forum/915175-post34.html

All you had to do was answer this question^^^and it would've been done. Well my agenda isn't to harass you it's to defend myself if in fact you're speaking of me. I don't know for sure that you are so that is why I asked who you were speaking about. You have chosen not to answer the question and deflect them. If feel so compelled you can PM me with who you're speaking of and why you made the statement that you did. I won't hold my breath waiting.

I'm done with it because the silence speaks volumes.
i dont think you are done, you didnt pm me. and i just have a feeling you are going to have to have the last word. btw having a grandkid or 2 will really mature you. #1. i never said anything about you, show me where i did. #2. i never said anything bad about your product or company. #3. you call me out on this forum and get personal, the weight of proof is on you. #4. you get paid to play on the web, i have a job to go to. the silence you hear is someone on his way to a JOB.
 
dtrain13

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Damn, what happen to this thread?
I asked someone for clarification on a post they made in which they may or may not have been calling me a "dumbass" and making accusations that I said something that I did not. Thats it.
 
thebigt

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i apologize to the guys who were trying to make this an informative,productive thread. i am old enough to know better. sorry guys.
 

Hyde12

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I have been experiencing the same thing (drop in libido and erection quality) since I have been taking DIM and Chrysine combo. I recently got off both and have noticed a positive effect (in the right direction!). Didn't put it together until I read your post - maybe it is having the same effect on me. Anyone else experience this? I was taking about 500mg of DIM and 1 gm of Chrysin in two different doeses with 5 mg bioperine each dose.
Green Tea, Saw palmetto and Nettle from what I have read, will also decrease DHT. I think that zinc may do it too. I wish there was a natural supplement that INCREASED DHT. I think that DHT has gotten a bad rap these days. I have never tried DTH, so I don't know if its the case with it, but with all the positive reviews I don't think it would have too much of an impact on DHT. I was just speaking from experience with DIM as a standalone.
 

steve777

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Green Tea, Saw palmetto and Nettle from what I have read, will also decrease DHT. I think that zinc may do it too. I wish there was a natural supplement that INCREASED DHT. I think that DHT has gotten a bad rap these days. I have never tried DTH, so I don't know if its the case with it, but with all the positive reviews I don't think it would have too much of an impact on DHT. I was just speaking from experience with DIM as a standalone.
I have read the samne thing about those suplements. But are you saying the DIM could be the causing a drop in DHT and this could in turn be the cause for drop in libido?
 
dtrain13

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i apologize to the guys who were trying to make this an informative,productive thread. i am old enough to know better. sorry guys.
I do as well. I went ahead and deleted all of my posts directed at you so if you would like to do the same we can get this thread back on track. thebigt, I still have a problem with you but we worry about that another day.
 
EasyEJL

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how is the t-force going? A DUMBASS rep at bb.com is making it sound like gear. haha. what sold me on diesel test-no advertising, no reps. its all word of mouth. if diesel wasnt putting out good stuff he wouldnt have stuck around this long.:cheers:
Its really hard to say how its going without blood tests b4 and after, but I did start getting some acne. It seems to at least accomplish that, plus some level of mood elevation. It hasn't really effected my libido either way, or much of anything else really noticeable. So i'd guess its having some testosterone effect, but hard to say how much. Plus i'm on a fairly hard cut, so sure i'm maintaining my lean mass, but the test boosters are probably way more valuable during a bulk.

I'll likely buy 2 bottles of the diesel test hardcore next round of herbal test boosters I buy. Given all the piles of other supplements i've already bought, that probably wont be for a month or two tho, which will also be when I'm starting a long term clean bulk.
 
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