(3b,5a,6a,25R)-Spirostan-3,6-diol

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Patrick Arnold

Patrick Arnold

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i have gotten questions about the above diosgenin derivative.

6alpha-hydroxydiosgenin is its real name

i cannot believe they have recycled these useless diosgenins from years past.

6-ketodiosgenin used to be sold back in the early 90s. i know, i was suckered into buying that crap. Its justification was based on an obscure russian study. it came and went. now its back pretty much

i have come across dozens of such esoteric russian studies showing everything from primordial mud to bee pollen to act as potent anabolics. these articles come in handy when i am out of TP and have to wipe my ass

so they made a hydroxyl out of good ole 6-keto. wow. it did nothing as a keto so i expect nothing as a hydroxyl

where is the facts about this stuff. where. someone show me where.
 

ReaperX

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Before anyone tries to start flaming Pat for bring up another supplement, I am actually pretty grateful to have him raise questions about certain supplements and their effectiveness because I hate having my wallet emptied in vain.
 
wojo

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oh man,i think pa has a check list..this is going to be interesting
 
Patrick Arnold

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lets start with this

"So how does it work? 25R-diol™ has direct anabolic
effects on androgen receptors however is causes no
endogenous shutdown of testosterone biosynthesis. This is
because 25R-diol™ has minimal intrinsic androgenic
activity at those receptors"


ok (doctor D), where is the evidence that it binds to androgenic receptors. either god appeared in a bush and revealed this to you or you picked it up in the literature somewhere.



and then explain please how a steroid has anabolic effects upon a receptor (what a completely nonsensical statement)

you either bind and activate the receptor or you bind without activating or you do not bind at all.

to sell steroids and then being so back ass retarded about how they function is quite scary
 
Patrick Arnold

Patrick Arnold

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Before anyone tries to start flaming Pat for bring up another supplement, I am actually pretty grateful to have him raise questions about certain supplements and their effectiveness because I hate having my wallet emptied in vain.

i apologize for gettting so emotional but what i see happening with all this stuff is something that disgusts me on so many levels
 
crader

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I agree it seems that the ethics of so many companys stand for nothing.

I appreciated the fact that you told me to stop taking your product, rather than screw me up just to make money.
 
wojo

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I agree it seems that the ethics of so many companys stand for nothing.

I appreciated the fact that you told me to stop taking your product, rather than screw me up just to make money.
11-oxo?
 
Vitruvian

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PA,

While we have you on the forum..... any info to offer on 3,4 divanil vs. 6,7 divanil. I have heard conflicting reports on whether 6,7 divanil can even exist............?
 
crader

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Yes I pm'd him because I was uncomfortable with the test raising sides I was getting. He told me to stop because it could alter me in ways that cant be reversed..lol

11-oxo proved to be pretty potent for me. Good stuff
 

ReaperX

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Well, I respect what your doing. A customer pays a company for a supplement that works in exchange. Its a simple trade no bullsh-t. When a company scams a customer its not longer a fair trade, its theft.
 
Patrick Arnold

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this compound is better known as chlorogenin. its in the merck index

seems to be a relatively common plant sterol. nothing exotic whatsoever.

its marketing is exotic however

here are titles of the abstracts on this stuff from pubmed
Items 1 - 9 of 9 One page.


1:
El-Sayed MM, Abdel-Hameed ES, El-Nahas HA, El-Wakil EA.
Related Articles, Links
Isolation and identification of some steroidal glycosides of Furcraea selloa.
Pharmazie. 2006 May;61(5):478-82.
PMID: 16724551 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
2:
Allison GL, Lowe GM, Rahman K.
Related Articles, Links
Aged garlic extract and its constituents inhibit platelet aggregation through multiple mechanisms.
J Nutr. 2006 Mar;136(3 Suppl):782S-788S.
PMID: 16484563 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
3:
Zhang Y, Li Y, Guo T, Guan H, Shi J, Yu Q, Yu B.
Related Articles, Links
Syntheses of chlorogenin 6alpha-O-acyl-3-O-beta-chacotriosides and their antitumor activities.
Carbohydr Res. 2005 Jun 13;340(8):1453-9.
PMID: 15882851 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
4:
Ohtsuki T, Koyano T, Kowithayakorn T, Sakai S, Kawahara N, Goda Y, Yamaguchi N, Ishibashi M.
Related Articles, Links
New chlorogenin hexasaccharide isolated from Agave fourcroydes with cytotoxic and cell cycle inhibitory activities.
Bioorg Med Chem. 2004 Jul 15;12(14):3841-5.
PMID: 15210151 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
5:
Zamilpa A, Tortoriello J, Navarro V, Delgado G, Alvarez L.
Related Articles, Links
Five new steroidal saponins from Solanum chrysotrichum leaves and their antimycotic activity.
J Nat Prod. 2002 Dec;65(12):1815-9.
PMID: 12502320 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
6:
Alvarez L, Perez MC, Gonzalez JL, Navarro V, Villarreal ML, Olson JO.
Related Articles, Links
SC-1, an antimycotic spirostan saponin from Solanum chrysotrichum.
Planta Med. 2001 Jun;67(4):372-4.
PMID: 11458462 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
7:
Itakura Y, Ichikawa M, Mori Y, Okino R, Udayama M, Morita T.
Related Articles, Links
How to distinguish garlic from the other Allium vegetables.
J Nutr. 2001 Mar;131(3s):963S-7S.
PMID: 11238797 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
8:
Mimaki Y, Sashida Y, Kawashima K.
Related Articles, Links
Steroidal saponins from the bulbs of Camassia cusickii.
Phytochemistry. 1991;30(11):3721-7.
PMID: 1367840 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
9:
Gheorghiu A, Ionescu-Matiu E.
Related Articles, Links
[Presence of chlorogenin beside the diosgenin and gitogenin in Tribulus terrestris L]
Ann Pharm Fr. 1968;26(12):745-8. French. No abstract available.
PMID: 5757749 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Items 1 - 9 of 9
 
Patrick Arnold

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PA,

While we have you on the forum..... any info to offer on 3,4 divanil vs. 6,7 divanil. I have heard conflicting reports on whether 6,7 divanil can even exist............?


i am not convinced that this product has any positive effects on testosterone activity in the body.

until someone can show me something real with it i do not recommend it
 
Patrick Arnold

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i will list here for everyone the titles of all 131 published references for this compound. this is from a highly sophisticated and comprehensive database

FYI, i did key word searches for the words androgen, nitric oxide, and LH. i did not get even one hit for any of these terms in all 131 articles

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115 answers in CAplus
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1 Sebum control compositions based on saponins and sapogenins [$4.70]
2 Antifungal activity of C-27 steroidal saponins [$4.70]
3 Five new steroidal saponins from Solanum chrysotrichum leaves and their antimycotic activity [$4.70]
4 Steroidal saponins from Solanum unguiculatum (A.) Rich [$4.70]
5 Steroidal saponins from Solanum unguiculatum (A.) Rich [$4.70]
6 Method for preparation of pregnane alcohols by degradation of steroidal sapongenins [$4.70]
7 Isolation of jurubidine and isojurubidine from Solanum cristalense Amsh roots [$4.70]
8 Major components isolated from Solanum tridynamum Dunal roots [$4.70]
9 Specificity and some other properties of cytosolic and membranous UDPGlc:3.beta.-hydroxysteroid glucosyltransferases from Solanum tuberosum leaves [$4.70]
10 Anomalous effect in the action of Ehrlich reagent on steroidal glycosides [$4.70]
11 Steroidal saponins from the bulbs of Camassia cusickii [$4.70]
12 A reinvestigation of the steroidal sapogenins from China agave plants [$4.70]
13 Chlorogenone and neochlorogenone from the unripe fruits of Solanum torvum [$4.70]
14 Sapogenins from Solanum meridense [$4.70]
15 Steroidal compounds from leaves of Solanum antillarum. (Part I) [$4.70]
16 The occurrence of UDPG-dependent glucosyltransferase specific for sarsasapogenin in Asparagus officinalis [$4.70]
17 Substrate specificity of partially purified UDP-glucose:nuatigenin glucosyltransferase from oat leaves [$4.70]
18 Characterization of Yucca gloriosa L. suspension cultures [$4.70]
19 Steroidal sapogenins from Solanum scorpioideum [$4.70]
20 Steroidal compounds from Solanum cristalense Amsh [$4.70]
21 Barbourgenin, a new steroidal sapogenin from Agave sisalana leaves [$4.70]
22 Carbon-13 NMR spectroscopy of steroidal sapogenins and steroidal saponins [$4.70]
23 Steroid sapogenins of Beschorneria bracteata [$4.70]
24 Steroidal constituents of Agave cantala Roxb. (rootstalks) [$4.70]
25 Studies on steroidal sapogenins from Yucca aloefolia L. in vivo and in vitro tissue cultures [$4.70]
26 A spirostanol glycoside from Agave cantala [$4.70]
27 Study of the neutral constituents of Agave cantala Roxb. (leaves) [$4.70]
28 Diosgenin, chlorogenin, and isochiapagenin from Solanum bahamense L [$4.70]
29 Chromatographic determination of steroidal compounds contained in plants of the Solanum genus [$4.70]
30 Steroidal sapogenins of Yucca aloifolia leaves [$4.70]
31 Steroidal sapogenin of Yucca gloriosa leaves [$4.70]
32 Steroidal sapogenins from leaves of some species of Agave and Furcraea [$4.70]
33 Steroidal sapogenins. Part XVI. Carbon-13 nuclear magnetic resonance spectra of some natural and synthetic steroidal sapogenins [$4.70]
34 Steroid sapogenins, Part XV. The constituents of Agave utahensis variety nevadensis, A. lophantha and A. parasana [$4.70]
35 Steroid compounds of representatives of Allium and their chromatographic study for chemosystematics of the genus [$4.70]
36 Steroid sapogenins of some varieties of American agave [$4.70]
37 Chemical investigations of the fruit of 'Tribulus alatus' Del [$4.70]
38 Studies on the steroidal sapogenins of the Agave plant. II. Isolation and identification of the steroidal sapogenins from leaves of Agave sisalana Perrine [$4.70]
39 Gas-liquid chromatography of steroid and triterpene sapogenins using water vapor as the carrier gas [$4.70]
40 Studies on the steroidal sapogenins of Agave. III. Isolation and identification on steroidal sapogenins from some species of Agave [$4.70]
41 Gas-liquid and vapor-liquid chromatography of the aglycons of triterpenoid and steroid glycosides [$4.70]
42 Studies on the steroidal sapogenins of Agave plant. I. Isolation and identification of steroidal sapogenins from the leaves of Agave americana L [$4.70]
43 Steroid alkaloid and saponin contents of Solanum torvum [$4.70]
44 Steroid alkaloid and sapongenin constituents of Solanum laciniatum [$4.70]
45 Steroid alkaloid and sapogenin constituents of Solanum laciniatum grown in Egypt [$4.70]
46 Steroidal constituents of Solanum pseudomeum [$4.70]
47 Screening method for the analysis of neutral and basic steroid sapogenins [$4.70]
48 Structure and absolute configuration of new alkaloids from Solanum paniculatum [$4.70]
49 Chlorogenin and kaempferol glycosides from the flowers of Agave americana [$4.70]
50 Steroid sapogenin constituents of Agave americana, A. variegata and Yucca gloriosa [$4.70]


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Patrick Arnold

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51 Steroidal constituents of Solanum cyananthum [$4.70]
52 Presence of chlorogenin with diosgenin and gitogenin in Tribulus terrestris [$4.70]
53 Steroid sapogenins. Presence of chlorogenin in Tribulus terrestris [$4.70]
54 Constituents of local plants. XIII. Steroidal constituents of Solanum torvum [$4.70]
55 NMR studies on steroids. V. Steroidal sapogenins and their derivatives [$4.70]
56 Constituents of local plants. X. Steroidal alkaloids of Solanum wrightii Benth [$4.70]
57 Steroid sapogenins. XII. Thin-layer chromatography of steroid sapogenins as acetates [$4.70]
58 Steroid sapogenins. X. Constituents of Agave filifera, Agave ghiesbrechtii, and Agave xylonacantha [$4.70]
59 Steroid sapogenins. IX. Thin-layer chromatography [$4.70]
60 Simultaneous chromatographic separation and infrared sample preparation of indole acids [$4.70]
61 Steroidal components of domestic plants. XLVII. Constituents of the stem of Smilax sieboldi. 1. Structure of laxogenin [$4.70]
62 Application of thin-layer chromatography in the study of natural products. IV. Identification of steroidal sapogenins from Agave americana [$4.70]
63 Sapogenin contents of Yucca. I. Yucca aloefolia [$4.70]
64 Investigations on Yucca species as to the content in steroid sapogenins. II. Steroid sapogenins from Yucca filamentosa [$4.70]
65 Steroid sapogenins. IV. The constituents of Furcraea gigantea leaves [$4.70]
66 Methods for separation of natural substances. IX. Chromatography of steroid compounds on a magnesium silicate column without a binder [$4.70]
67 Thin-layer chromatography of steroidal sapogenins [$4.70]
68 Determination of urinary pregnanediol by gas-liquid chromatography [$4.70]
69 Thin-layer chromatography of steroids on starch-bound silica gel chromatoplates [$4.70]
70 Steroids. CCXV. The quantitative analysis of steroids by thin-layer chromatography [$4.70]
71 Steroids. CLXXXVII. Transannular reactions at saturated carbon atoms. 2. C-19 oxygenation [$4.70]
72 Steroids. CLXXXI. 11a-Aza- and 11a-oxa-C-homosteroidal hormone analogs [$4.70]
73 Steroid sapogenins in some Chinese medicinal plants. II [$4.70]
74 Gas chromatographic separations of sapogenins [$4.70]
75 Colorimetric assay for diosgenin and related compounds [$4.70]
76 Conductometric analysis in detection and determination of pharmaceutical products [$4.70]
77 Steroid sapogenins. I. The sapogenins of Agave americana, A. atrovirens and A. salmina [$4.70]
78 Steroidal sapogenins. III. Sapogenins of roots and leaves of Yucca filamentosa from Black Sea shore of the Caucasus [$4.70]
79 Steroidal sapogenins. XLIII. Survey of plants for steroidal sapogenins and other constituents [$4.70]
80 Optical rotatory dispersion studies. IV. Steroidal sapogenins [$4.70]
81 Steroidal sapogenins. XXVII. Preparation and properties of 20-isosapogenins [$4.70]
82 A study of the behavior of morphine on ion-exchange resins [$4.70]
83 Steroidal sapogenins. XII. Survey of plants for steroidal sapogenins and other constituents [$4.70]
84 Use of sulfuric acid in the detection and estimation of steroidal sapogenins [$4.70]
85 3.beta.,6.alpha.-Dihydroxyallopregnan-20-one from human urine [$4.70]
86 Steroidal sapogenins. VII. Survey of plants for steroidal sapogenins and other constituents [$4.70]
87 Infrared absorption spectra of steroidal sapogenins in the region of 1650 and 3300 cm.-1 [$4.70]
88 Sapogenins with a steroid nucleus. Identification of sapogenins from small quantities of plants [$4.70]
89 Steroid metabolism. XVII. The infrared absorption spectra of the steroid sapogenins [$4.70]
90 Catalog of infrared absorption spectra of steroidal sapogenin acetates [$4.70]
91 Steroidal sapogenins. I. Extraction, isolation, and identification [$4.70]
92 Steroidal sapogenins. XXI. Identification by the absorption spectra of their sulfuric acid chromogens [$4.70]
93 Constitution of chlorogenin [$4.70]
94 Sterols. CLXX. Magogenin and cacogenin and their biogenesis to chlorogenin and tigogenin [$4.70]
95 Sterols. CLXI. Conversion of pseudosapogenins to sapogenins and neosapogenins. (This and the following parts were incorrectly numbered in the original and C.A. has changed them accordingly.) [$4.70]
96 Sterols. CLX. Sapogenins. 72. Steroidal sapogenins [$4.70]
97 Dipole moments of steroids. III [$4.70]
98 Sterols. CLVII. Sapogenins. 69. Isolation and structures of thirteen new steroidal sapogenins. New sources for known sapogenins [$4.70]
99 Sterols. CXXXVI. Sapogenins. 57. The structure of the side chain of chlorogenin [$4.70]
100 Sterols. CXXXI. Sapogenins. 53. The configuration of the hydroxyl group in chlorogenin [$4.70]


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Patrick Arnold

Patrick Arnold

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115 answers in CAplus
16 answers in CAOLD
131 total hits
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Titles from CAplus in Most Recent Order | Best Match Order

101 Saponins and sapogenins. XVII. The structure of the side chain of chlorogenin [$4.70]
102 Sterols. CXI. Sapogenins. 40. The conversion of chlorogenin to tigogenin [$4.70]
103 Sterols. CX. The position of the hydroxy groups in chlorogenin [$4.70]
104 Sterols. CII. Chlorogenin [$4.70]
105 Sterols. CI. Structure of pseudosarsasapogenin [$4.70]
106 Sterols. XCIII. Epipseudosarsasapogenin, pseudosarsasapogenone and pseudochlorogenin [$4.70]
107 Sterols. XCII. The preparation of neotigogenin from sarsasapogenin [$4.70]
108 Sterols. LXXX. Reactions of chlorogenin [$4.70]
109 Saponins and sapogenins. XIV. The so-called pyridazine derivatives of steroid diones. [$4.70]
110 Saponins and sapogenins. XIII. The precipitability of steroid sapogenins by digitonin [$4.70]
111 Saponins and sapogenins. X. The isolation of gitogenin from Chlorogalum pomeridianum [$4.70]
112 Sterols. LVIII. The position of the nuclear hydroxyl groups in chlorogenin [$4.70]
113 Saponins and sapogenins. VI. Surface films of chlorogenin and derivatives [$4.70]
114 Saponins and sapogenins. V. Oxidation products and structure of chlorogenin [$4.70]
115 Saponins and sapogenins. III. The sapogenins obtained from Chlorogalum pomeridianum [$4.70]
Titles from CAOLD in Most Recent Order
Accession Numbers
116 steroid sapogenins - (IX) thin-layer chromatography [$4.70] CA63:15207a CAOLD

117 steroidal components of domestic plants - (XLVII) constituents of the stem of Smilax sieboldi (1) structure of laxogenin [$4.70] CA63:13356h CAOLD

118 application of thin-layer chromatography in the study of natural products - (IV) identification of steroidal sapogenins from Agave americana [$4.70] CA61:4150b CAOLD

119 sapogenin contents of Yucca plants - (I) Y. aloefolia [$4.70] CA60:3947c CAOLD

120 pharmacognostic study of fruits of Physalis alkekengi [$4.70] CA60:3270c CAOLD

121 steroid sapogenins - (IV) constituents of Furcraea gigantea leaves, (V) constituents of Agave attenuata, A. macracantha, and A. angustifolia [$4.70] CA60:366b CAOLD

122 sepn. of natural substances - (IX) chromatography of steroid compds. on a Mg silicate column without a binder [$4.70] CA59:3719g CAOLD

123 thin-layer chromatography of steroidal sapogenins [$4.70] CA59:1914f CAOLD

124 thin-layer chromatography of steroids on starch-bound SiO2 gel chromatoplates [$4.70] CA58:14427c CAOLD

125 steroids - (CLXXXVII) transannular reactions at satd. C atoms (2) C-19 oxygenation [$4.70] CA57:16686d CAOLD

126 steroid sapogenins in some Chinese medicinal - (II) [$4.70] CA56:11664h CAOLD

127 gas-chromatographic sepns. of sapogenins [$4.70] CA55:16594a CAOLD

128 colorimetric assay for diosgenin and related compds. [$4.70] CA55:13767b CAOLD

129 steroid sapogenins - (I) sapogenins of Agave americana, Agave atrovirens, and Agave salmina [$4.70] CA55:11461h CAOLD

130 steroidal sapogenins - (III) sapogenins of roots and leaves of Yucca filamentosa from Black Sea shore of the Caucasus [$4.70] CA52:12321d CAOLD

131 steroidal sapogenins - (XLIII) plants for steroidal sapogenins and other constituents [$4.70] CA52:2186h CAOLD



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Dagron

Dagron

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Thanks for all the work you do Pat, it's very much appreciated.
 

macedaddy

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lets start with this

"So how does it work? 25R-diol™ has direct anabolic
effects on androgen receptors however is causes no
endogenous shutdown of testosterone biosynthesis. This is
because 25R-diol™ has minimal intrinsic androgenic
activity at those receptors"


ok (doctor D), where is the evidence that it binds to androgenic receptors. either god appeared in a bush and revealed this to you or you picked it up in the literature somewhere.



and then explain please how a steroid has anabolic effects upon a receptor (what a completely nonsensical statement)

you either bind and activate the receptor or you bind without activating or you do not bind at all.

to sell steroids and then being so back ass retarded about how they function is quite scary
before you start accusing Doctor D of such things, maybe you should figure out who did the write-up..........

don't be so quick to judge, PA!
 
DR.D

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i apologize for gettting so emotional but what i see happening with all this stuff is something that disgusts me on so many levels
The solution is simple, stop looking the the mirror. I would be disgusted too if I were you! Seriously, how lifeless do you have to be to play blemish all day on the internet? Grow up Pat.
 
Patrick Arnold

Patrick Arnold

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before you start accusing Doctor D of such things, maybe you should figure out who did the write-up..........

don't be so quick to judge, PA!

well i assumed

sorry
 
Patrick Arnold

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The solution is simple, stop looking the the mirror. I would be disgusted too if I were you! Seriously, how lifeless do you have to be to play blemish all day on the internet? Grow up Pat.

do you think i want to have to do this?


unfortunately there never seems to be anyone out there that is smart enough and/or cares enough to examine and question these things. so people keep believing and buying.

then these consumers start bugging me all the time about how to stack my stuff with junk like this. then it starts to really hit home

i am only human. i can't stand by everyday watching people get scammed without saying something about it, and doing something about it

anything less would be a disservice to the consumer
 

PumpingIron

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do you think i want to have to do this?


unfortunately there never seems to be anyone out there that is smart enough and/or cares enough to examine and question these things. so people keep believing and buying.

then these consumers start bugging me all the time about how to stack my stuff with junk like this. then it starts to really hit home

i am only human. i can't stand by everyday watching people get scammed without saying something about it, and doing something about it

anything less would be a disservice to the consumer
I agree.

PA might have an alternative motive here but in a way he is playing consumer advocate and for that I am thankful.
 
bigschmidt821

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$ay$ who?
old school saying from my old mans time, your from illinois you know how it really is. cant assume everything. i can assume ur just being a jerk right now but how Christian would that be of me?
 
Patrick Arnold

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old school saying from my old mans time, your from illinois you know how it really is. cant assume everything. i can assume ur just being a jerk right now but how Christian would that be of me?
i am from CT not IL

that saying is universal
 
wojo

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geezus he was being a smartass using the $ like bigschmidt did
 
Mass_69

Mass_69

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Actually, I never heard it (or at least remember hearing it) til I moved to CT
 
Patrick Arnold

Patrick Arnold

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what part? i used to live in Naugatuck, outside of Waterbury. Still have friends in Danbury!

guilford

i interned at uniroyal chemical during college back in 1988 btw

used to get lunch at some popular deli there everyday
 
Mass_69

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Patrick,

Are you familiar with the spirostane & spirostene in BadAssMass?

(25R)-5-alpha-spirostan-6-one-3b-ol & (25R)-4-Spirosten-3b,6b-diol
 

macedaddy

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Patrick,

Are you familiar with the spirostane & spirostene in BadAssMass?

(25R)-5-alpha-spirostan-6-one-3b-ol & (25R)-4-Spirosten-3b,6b-diol
BAM is much more than JUST the 25R, though..........
 
Patrick Arnold

Patrick Arnold

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Patrick,

Are you familiar with the spirostane & spirostene in BadAssMass?

(25R)-5-alpha-spirostan-6-one-3b-ol & (25R)-4-Spirosten-3b,6b-diol

first is 6 keto diosgenin (or 5alpha reduced 6-keto diosgenin)

second is the 4,5 double bond version of chlorogenin

plant sterols like this are ubiquitous in plants.

i don't understand why people put them in products. i have never seen anything to indicate that any of these have biological effects.

in fact, it is questionable whether they can even be absorbed efficiently
 
Mass_69

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BAM is much more than JUST the 25R, though..........
That is true, and I for one can say that I noticed a lot of strength increase from BAM. Just thought I would ask, seeing as we were talking of spirostanes.

I liked BAM. After using a free bottle from ALRI, I have bought more. Wasn't a big mass-builder for me, but the libido & strength boosts are nice.
 
Last edited:
xjsynx

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PA,

While we have you on the forum..... any info to offer on 3,4 divanil vs. 6,7 divanil. I have heard conflicting reports on whether 6,7 divanil can even exist............?
i am not convinced that this product has any positive effects on testosterone activity in the body.

until someone can show me something real with it i do not recommend it
And I thought I was just a non-responder...

Anywho, I enjoy these threads questioning products/chemicals.

If they are legit, then they should have legitimate answers, and so far PA hasn't been proved wrong.
 
mattikus

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Oy vey. Yet another unknown ingredient. PA is absolutely right in that we consumers have no idea what the hell we are taking. Often all we have to go by is the word of the marketing claims made by these companies and I am tired of all the B.S. 6-bromo, 6alpha-hydroxydiosgenin, ADED, and the list of questionable ingredients goes on and on. THe companies that include these and other ingredients in their products usually offer up zero scientific data and sometimes won't even comment on what their made-up ingredient names actually are. This is B.S. As far as the supplement world goes, PA is one of the few people that actually has a clue and tries to help and educate us consumers. I believe Dr. D also tries to help others, but PA is constantly pointing out many problems that need to be addressed. For this he has my respect and gratitude.
 
bLacKjAck.

bLacKjAck.

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I just wanted to say thank you PA for doing this, and at least calling BS if you see it, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that. I REALLY hope AX can prove this wrong bc they are an amazing company, with great people. However, I really do want to see what comes of this...and appreciate you doing us a favor - as consumers.
 
p5sky

p5sky

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well when you assume u litterally make an A$$ out of U and ME
Wow, that hasnt made it out to California yet. These take time to move west.
:rofl: just kidding

I actually saw it at the movies, I think the original Bad News Bears, I wa a little kid and just rolling. This was in the 70s, I was 8 or 9
 
bigschmidt821

bigschmidt821

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my question patrick is why do they work from real world evidence when ppl take them? are you trying to say in all this that it shouldnt work? or that perhaps there is something else in there?
 

ReaperX

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my question patrick is why do they work from real world evidence when ppl take them? are you trying to say in all this that it shouldnt work? or that perhaps there is something else in there?
For me when people say 'I got jacked off this' does not quantify if it works or not plain and simple. There are a lot of uneducated individuals who believe what they want to believe. This argument would negate any type of possible placebo effect when in actuality this is a probability. At any rate, if AX is confident in their product they should not have any concern over it and just produce scientific results.

I made this argument before, its not like the judicial system where the supplement is 'innocent until proven guilty' when you have thousands of customers paying.
 
bigschmidt821

bigschmidt821

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For me when people say 'I got jacked off this' does not quantify if it works or not plain and simple. There are a lot of uneducated individuals who believe what they want to believe. This argument would negate any type of possible placebo effect when in actuality this is a probability. At any rate, if AX is confident in their product they should not have any concern over it and just product scientific results.
well placebo or not i personally witnessed the gain off of my brother while on this with no change to his diet. 8 pounds with the addition to hyperdrol 2. if that is placebo in your mind fine. i am just trying to figure out what Patrick is getting at in this and asking his oppinion.
 
Mass_69

Mass_69

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For me when people say 'I got jacked off this' does not quantify if it works or not plain and simple. There are a lot of uneducated individuals who believe what they want to believe.
I hope that wasn't aimed at a particular post in this thread :nono:
 
TeamSavage

TeamSavage

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my question patrick is why do they work from real world evidence when ppl take them? are you trying to say in all this that it shouldnt work? or that perhaps there is something else in there?
(cough cough) placebo effect (cough cough)

PA - When 25R-diol first came out I tried to raise some questions and get the actual studies behind it, but I pretty much hit a brick wall of "Well they'll steal our research so we're releasing nothing." Unfortunately, I didn't have the expertise or resources to dig deeper. Keep the skepticism coming, PA (although the attitude could be dropped).
 

macedaddy

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For me when people say 'I got jacked off this' does not quantify if it works or not plain and simple. There are a lot of uneducated individuals who believe what they want to believe.
there are plenty of people on this board and others that have done logs and cycles and given WAY MORE than "i got jacked off this"..................

there are several VERY experienced anabolic users as well...................
 
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