11-oxo + ECA

[SwordBurn]

I should be receiving my 11-oxo in the next 2 days. I was wondering...

Is it safe to use 11-oxo with ECA?

Also...

Is it safe to use 11-oxo with Leviathan?

Any input would be much appreciated.

Dose: 11-oxo x4 on off days/ x6 on W/O days (am/pm)....ECA x2 everyday.


Notes:

- No previous cycles.
- Test levels moderate.
- No libido issues.
- May take Aspire occasionally (once a week or every 2 weeks).

 

[brywal312]

That is pretty much what I am doing...Bronkaid = e leviathan = c and I am running oxo and massfx - the eca really helps with the letharagy from the oxo. I can literally feel the leviathan kick in and then the oxo bring me back down about 5 minutes later. So they really help balance the sides from both out. I have been running this for approx 3 weeks so far with no problems

 

[Alpine]

That is pretty much what I am doing...Bronkaid = e leviathan = c and I am running oxo and massfx - the eca really helps with the letharagy from the oxo. I can literally feel the leviathan kick in and then the oxo bring me back down about 5 minutes later. So they really help balance the sides from both out. I have been running this for approx 3 weeks so far with no problems

Hmm.. I havent noticed any lethargy just yet from my 3-AD (450mg/day). Care to elaborate on that a bit more? When did you notice it?

 

[brywal312]

it started about 5-6 days into the cycle and generally happens about 20 minutes after i take oxo+massfx. I am dosing 6 oxo a day - 450mg total and 4 massfx per day.

 

[bigschmidt821]

ur getting lethargic? i hit 900mg of 3AD and never got lethargic. that is quite strange

 

[brywal312]

yep... bottom line...leviathan goes nice w/ it!

 

[Mass_69]

I would think that 11-oxo/3-AD would compliment ECA well, as a buffer to any excess cortisol ECA may cause.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

ur getting lethargic? i hit 900mg of 3AD and never got lethargic. that is quite strange

most people find 11-oxo stimulating actually

 

[bigschmidt821]

most people find 11-oxo stimulating actually

keep running into each other dont we patrick. but i do agree as far as 3AD is concerned it was stimulating, havnt gotten a chance to give 11 oxo a go around just yet. prolly will try the 11 oxo atlower doses

 

[Patrick Arnold]

keep running into each other dont we patrick. but i do agree as far as 3AD is concerned it was stimulating, havnt gotten a chance to give 11 oxo a go around just yet. prolly will try the 11 oxo atlower doses

good luck on the customs thing

 

[conan1071]

Patrick,

I met you at the JR nationals at the Hyatt Ohare. I was the one raving about the 11oxo. I am up to 9/day and dont get any lethargy... must be the mix of different companies(HAHA)

 

[bigschmidt821]

good luck on the customs thing

what do u mean good luck onm the customs thing? i already took 3AD.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

what do u mean good luck onm the customs thing? i already took 3AD.

i thought your adrenosterone was being held by the FDA customs officials

oh wait a minute. i am confusing you with bigsmith

i think

 

[bigschmidt821]

i thought your adrenosterone was being held by the FDA customs officials

oh wait a minute. i am confusing you with bigsmith

i think

yea i aint kevin,

i just tested 3AD thats about it

 

[Patrick Arnold]

yea i aint kevin,

i just tested 3AD thats about it

huh

for a while now i have been assuming you were kevin

now maybe alot of s'it i said might make more sense to you

 

[bigschmidt821]

yea probably, i was gettting confused for a while. so lets straighten it out your patrick and i am michael. u hate being called pat and i hate being called mike. we are both from illinois simple enough. i am not affiliated with AX i just tested their product and i know alot of the goings on things in the AZ supplement chain thats why i was arguing with u on it last week

 

[Patrick Arnold]

yea probably, i was gettting confused for a while. so lets straighten it out your patrick and i am michael. u hate being called pat and i hate being called mike. we are both from illinois simple enough. i am not affiliated with AX i just tested their product and i know alot of the goings on things in the AZ supplement chain thats why i was arguing with u on it last week

ok i think you were the guy i private messaged asking how much 3-AD was in the capsules you were taking

obviously i was trying to figure out what my competition was doing cuz at that point we had already gotten our 75mg caps made up.

i heard you complaining about this as if i was doing something unethical.

you didn't have to tell me what was in them and you didn't.


i thought i was being sneaky, but not unethical

 

[bigschmidt821]

ok i think you were the guy i private messaged asking how much 3-AD was in the capsules you were taking

obviously i was trying to figure out what my competition was doing cuz at that point we had already gotten our 75mg caps made up.

i heard you complaining about this as if i was doing something unethical.

you didn't have to tell me what was in them and you didn't.


i thought i was being sneaky, but not unethical

i didnt mean it as being unethical more so sneaky as u put it. i believe my post was probably over dramtic in a sense. got a lil caught up in all of it in the AX forum. but yes i am that same guy. it was sneaky on your part and also in a way smart this is business and competition nothing wrong i guess, so i apoligize it was a bit over stated i was ticked that day to much complaints going on so a lashed out a bit.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

i didnt mean it as being unethical more so sneaky as u put it. i believe my post was probably over dramtic in a sense. got a lil caught up in all of it in the AX forum. but yes i am that same guy. it was sneaky on your part and also in a way smart this is business and competition nothing wrong i guess, so i apoligize it was a bit over stated i was ticked that day to much complaints going on so a lashed out a bit.

you got caught up in the PA lynching party. i understand

you are forgiven

 

[bigschmidt821]

you got caught up in the PA lynching party. i understand

you are forgiven

lmao more or less i guess ur right, alot of us were ticked when we found out there were two new products coming out that were the same so we assumed things, cant be helped its human nature i guess. not much more to be said on the subject. so thx for the forgivness

 

[CHAPS]

ok i think you were the guy i private messaged asking how much 3-AD was in the capsules you were taking

obviously i was trying to figure out what my competition was doing cuz at that point we had already gotten our 75mg caps made up.

i heard you complaining about this as if i was doing something unethical.

you didn't have to tell me what was in them and you didn't.


i thought i was being sneaky, but not unethical

So 11-oxo is 75mg a cap? And how high can you go with this stuff? I want to stack some at say 900mg with some epistane+clen/t3 on a cut.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

lmao more or less i guess ur right, alot of us were ticked when we found out there were two new products coming out that were the same so we assumed things, cant be helped its human nature i guess. not much more to be said on the subject. so thx for the forgivness

i actually had applied for a provisional patent application back in 2003 and forgotten about it until AX threatened to sue me for stealing adrenosterone. i had to confirm with my attorney




Your provisional application was filed 05/12/2003 as application

60/469596.



The USPTO says the provisional applications are on file for 2 years as “patent pending”, but they still have it. It is also possible to file a disclosure statement citing the unpublished abandoned application and the manufacturing.



Michael Berns

Maloney, Parkinson & Berns

135 West Main Street

Urbana, IL 61801

217-367-9000

FAX 217-384-4206



The information in this email is confidential and may be legally protected by the attorney-client privilege, attorney work product, or the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. 2510-2521. It is intended solely for the addressee(s). Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution is prohibited and may be unlawful.



-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Arnold [mailto[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 11:55 AM
To: [email protected]
Cc: Lakhan Boodram
Subject: 11-oxo provisional application
Importance: High



Mike, according to my records it appears i applied for a provisional patent application back in 2003. it was called





Use of 11-oxygenated androstenediones for lowering cortisol levels and cortisol / cortisone ratio

 

[bigschmidt821]

i actually had applied for a provisional patent application back in 2003 and forgotten about it until AX threatened to sue me for stealing adrenosterone. i had to confirm with my attorney




Your provisional application was filed 05/12/2003 as application

60/469596.



The USPTO says the provisional applications are on file for 2 years as “patent pending”, but they still have it. It is also possible to file a disclosure statement citing the unpublished abandoned application and the manufacturing.



Michael Berns

Maloney, Parkinson & Berns

135 West Main Street

Urbana, IL 61801

217-367-9000

FAX 217-384-4206



The information in this email is confidential and may be legally protected by the attorney-client privilege, attorney work product, or the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. 2510-2521. It is intended solely for the addressee(s). Access to this email by anyone else is unauthorized. Any disclosure, copying, or distribution is prohibited and may be unlawful.



-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick Arnold [mailto[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2007 11:55 AM
To: [email protected]
Cc: Lakhan Boodram
Subject: 11-oxo provisional application
Importance: High



Mike, according to my records it appears i applied for a provisional patent application back in 2003. it was called





Use of 11-oxygenated androstenediones for lowering cortisol levels and cortisol / cortisone ratio

looks legit to me, my apoligeze u had nothing to proove to me. i am simply a consumer and retailer of sports supplements.

 

[xjsynx]

ur getting lethargic? i hit 900mg of 3AD and never got lethargic. that is quite strange

Last week at 4 caps, I was pretty lethargic. I did not notice any stimulant effect, but I got an increased thermic effect though.

 

[SwordBurn]

Just wanted to say...

I took 11oxo last night for the first time.

9pm ECA (1) + 11oxo (2)
10:15pm-11:30pm Workout

Had a great workout (should just be the ECA edge)...but the next morning...

I had the hardest time waking up. Like a freakishly hard time. I couldn't open my eyes or roll out of bed. I hope its not a regular occurrence.

Popped 2 11oxo around 11am today...feeling ok...

 

[brywal312]

Just wanted to say...

I took 11oxo last night for the first time.

9pm ECA (1) + 11oxo (2)
10:15pm-11:30pm Workout

Had a great workout (should just be the ECA edge)...but the next morning...

I had the hardest time waking up. Like a freakishly hard time. I couldn't open my eyes or roll out of bed. I hope its not a regular occurrence.

Popped 2 11oxo around 11am today...feeling ok...

So you are only going to do 2? If I understand correctly you have to do 6= 450mg to get any anabolic effect.

 

[SwordBurn]

So you are only going to do 2? If I understand correctly you have to do 6= 450mg to get any anabolic effect.

Nah I was just rampin. I just got the bottle yesterday. 3rd day I should be at 6.

 

[Alpine]

Just wanted to say...

I took 11oxo last night for the first time.

9pm ECA (1) + 11oxo (2)
10:15pm-11:30pm Workout

Had a great workout (should just be the ECA edge)...but the next morning...

I had the hardest time waking up. Like a freakishly hard time. I couldn't open my eyes or roll out of bed. I hope its not a regular occurrence.

Popped 2 11oxo around 11am today...feeling ok...

So tired of seeing "reports" come back after 1 or 2 doses. EVEN 3-4 days of full dosing will likely not lead to ANY noticeable results/changes. This is why most logs/reviews are total garbage.

I normally don't even comment much until I have had half the product or finished it. Most things need a solid 2 weeks before you can accurately judge them.

11-OXO had nothing to do with you not wanting to get out of bed. LOL

 

[SwordBurn]

I know its hard to believe that getting out of bed comment. Trust me I know my body. I had plenty of sleep/rest. I've had nights where I only had 2 hours sleep and less, and never felt that way.

This is not a log. Just letting you guys know my "first impression" of a product (kinda like a first date). And yes I will report anythin unusual after the first full days or week.

If you think 11oxo is the holy grail, then I'm glad it worked for you.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

So tired of seeing "reports" come back after 1 or 2 doses. EVEN 3-4 days of full dosing will likely not lead to ANY noticeable results/changes. This is why most logs/reviews are total garbage.

I normally don't even comment much until I have had half the product or finished it. Most things need a solid 2 weeks before you can accurately judge them.

11-OXO had nothing to do with you not wanting to get out of bed. LOL

i have heard other reports of trouble getting out of bed, enough for me to consider a connection

cortisol is normally elevated very much right around wake up time. it may have a role in the arousal process. perhaps timing the last dose of the day at an earlier time might help

 

[1HP]

i have heard other reports of trouble getting out of bed, enough for me to consider a connection

cortisol is normally elevated very much right around wake up time. it may have a role in the arousal process. perhaps timing the last dose of the day at an earlier time might help

No it doesn't (for me anyways). I tried dosing 1 hour, 4 hours and 8 hours before bed and it doesn't make any difference to me. Getting up is horrible haha. But I'm lethargic whole day long, using stims (rpm) to keep going!

 

[1HP]

By the way I read some logs/reviews/posts on bb with some people saying the lethargy went away after they upped their doses from 4 to 6 or even to 8 caps a day. I wonder what could possibly cause that.

 

[xjsynx]

So tired of seeing "reports" come back after 1 or 2 doses. EVEN 3-4 days of full dosing will likely not lead to ANY noticeable results/changes. This is why most logs/reviews are total garbage.

I normally don't even comment much until I have had half the product or finished it. Most things need a solid 2 weeks before you can accurately judge them.

11-OXO had nothing to do with you not wanting to get out of bed. LOL

Quite honestly you don't have to read them then. Some people log it from the first day to the last day, but to each their own.

I honestly did not feel crap for the first few days, but appeared to look denser.

At 5 caps (3-AD), start of my third week on, I cannot wake up in the morning,

 

[Alpine]

i have heard other reports of trouble getting out of bed, enough for me to consider a connection

cortisol is normally elevated very much right around wake up time. it may have a role in the arousal process. perhaps timing the last dose of the day at an earlier time might help

After 1 dose though? lol

I doubt it would have even affected levels that much. After a couple weeks, I could see it. I dont doubt some people are noticing it. I only question it so soon after 1 dose. Hey, you're the expert, maybe its possible. I just think some of these anecdotal reports get sort of wacky sometimes. You saw what I said on BB.com about sides I noticed. Any possible link to what I mentioned? I havent noticed any problems getting up. Then again, I have had the opposite problem. Waking up early AM (4-5am) with a touch of unusual anxiety like feelings.

Quite honestly you don't have to read them then. Some people log it from the first day to the last day, but to each their own.

I honestly did not feel crap for the first few days, but appeared to look denser.

At 5 caps (3-AD), start of my third week on, I cannot wake up in the morning,

I'm not slamming anyone for keeping a detailed daily log. I just think its silly when someone takes 1 dosage and then reports back "how they feel" and how they lifted more or some other outlandish claim. It just makes me chuckle sometimes to see these logs come out.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

After 1 dose though? lol

I doubt it would have even affected levels that much. After a couple weeks, I could see it. I dont doubt some people are noticing it. I only question it so soon after 1 dose. Hey, you're the expert, maybe its possible. I just think some of these anecdotal reports get sort of wacky sometimes. You saw what I said on BB.com about sides I noticed. Any possible link to what I mentioned? .

yeah 1 day probably too early

what did you mentinon?

 

[xjsynx]

After 1 dose though? lol

I doubt it would have even affected levels that much. After a couple weeks, I could see it. I dont doubt some people are noticing it. I only question it so soon after 1 dose. Hey, you're the expert, maybe its possible. I just think some of these anecdotal reports get sort of wacky sometimes. You saw what I said on BB.com about sides I noticed. Any possible link to what I mentioned? I havent noticed any problems getting up. Then again, I have had the opposite problem. Waking up early AM (4-5am) with a touch of unusual anxiety like feelings.

I'm not slamming anyone for keeping a detailed daily log. I just think its silly when someone takes 1 dosage and then reports back "how they feel" and how they lifted more or some other outlandish claim. It just makes me chuckle sometimes to see these logs come out.

Well I agree with yiou there. Most supps take more than a dose, unless we are talking something like a stim...

 

[Alpine]

yeah 1 day probably too early

what did you mentinon?

I was pleased with the compound. In my stack (one I have used before) I really felt I lost more abdominal fat with the 3-AD added. I only noticed 2 sides and they were NOT frequent. It was minor but its all I noticed. One is common (and actually shows its working). Two is odd and could be 100% mental on my part - too many variables.

1. There have been a few times post workout where I wasn't able to get some carbs/whey as soon as I would have liked. I got a little bit light headed a few times in this situation, it was a very hypoglycemic feeling.

2. (Questionable) - Effects on mood: It "seems" like I have had a slight increase in anxiety. Now, this is really subjective and there are a TON of variables. I am busy with summer class and the pace is really crazy. I normally dont feel stressed at all. I have been having a lot of anxiety like feelings (although mild and not too bothersome). It is especially noticeable in the early AM when I wake from sleeping. I cant really explain it, it's more curious than disturbing. I was also taking Havoc but I have run prohormones/androgens in the past and never had issues. It could be the Lipo6x too - stimulants like synephrine/ephedrine are known to increase anxiety in some. Still, I have never experienced it.

Is there ANY mechanism (however remote) for 11oxo/3-AD's cortisol reduction leading to an adjustment period where anxiety could become more apparent? Like I said, could just be stimulants+dieting+busy schedule and stress of school. I was curious to ask though. I guess, speaking generally, anything hormonal has that potential. I just never noticed it with anything else and I have experimented with a lot. Wondered if cortisol in particular had some link I was unaware of.

I have seen some mention the compound making it hard to get up in the morning. I haven't experienced this myself.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

I was pleased with the compound. In my stack (one I have used before) I really felt I lost more abdominal fat with the 3-AD added. I only noticed 2 sides and they were NOT frequent. It was minor but its all I noticed. One is common (and actually shows its working). Two is odd and could be 100% mental on my part - too many variables.



Is there ANY mechanism (however remote) for 11oxo/3-AD's cortisol reduction leading to an adjustment period where anxiety could become more apparent? Like I said, could just be stimulants+dieting+busy schedule and stress of school. I was curious to ask though. I guess, speaking generally, anything hormonal has that potential. I just never noticed it with anything else and I have experimented with a lot. Wondered if cortisol in particular had some link I was unaware of.

I have seen some mention the compound making it hard to get up in the morning. I haven't experienced this myself.

the brain is complicated and corticosteroids have profound influences in many key areas. many areas of the brain are rich in the enzyme that 11-oxo blocks.

corticotropin releasing factor (CRF) is a hormone produced in the hypothalamus that is related to stress and anxiety. the possibility exists that a deficiency of cortisol may be sensed in the hypo and CRF is released in response,

 

[Dungeon1]

PA, is there any chance that there could be a contraindication with 11oxo and an SSRI? Not basing this on any concrete evidence, just wondering as I am currently taking both. I have DEFINATELY noticed that it is harder to wake up. Feel like an animal though, just this morning I was in the river behind my house catching salmon in my mouth.

 

[Patrick Arnold]

PA, is there any chance that there could be a contraindication with 11oxo and an SSRI? Not basing this on any concrete evidence, just wondering as I am currently taking both. I have DEFINATELY noticed that it is harder to wake up. Feel like an animal though, just this morning I was in the river behind my house catching salmon in my mouth.

since there is still alot about how ssri's work that we don't know, i don't think anyone can answer that

 

[xjsynx]

PA, is there any chance that there could be a contraindication with 11oxo and an SSRI? Not basing this on any concrete evidence, just wondering as I am currently taking both. I have DEFINATELY noticed that it is harder to wake up. Feel like an animal though, just this morning I was in the river behind my house catching salmon in my mouth.

I have a hard time waking up myself, and I am not taking a SSRI.

 

[Dungeon1]

I didn't necessarily attribute the problems waking up to the combo of the SSRI and 11oxo so much as the oxo itself. I actually find it easier to get up with the SSRI. I remember Dr. D talking about Seratonin Syndrom in a thread dealing with SSRI's and supps. Just thought I would ask. Like I said, I feel fine other than when I first wake up and EC definately helps my energy stay up.

 

[SwordBurn]

Guys I don't think I'm going to stick with the 11oxo 30day cycle.

11oxo x3 in the AM and x3 PM

I am experiencing the following:

Chronic Fatigue: I take 11oxo with an ECA stack...and I am walking around the gym like a zombie. It feels like I'm not even taking ECA. I can do the lifts, but motivation is nonexistent. And driving home from the gym, I'm literally ready to fall asleep while driving.

Every morning (especially after the first dose) has been difficult to get up in the morning. If you work mornings (8-5), you better make damn sure you have an alarm ready (I use to wake up on my own).

If I take 11oxo + ECA and not workout, I fall asleep (literally knock out). And just FYI, I usually do not take naps during the day.

Other sides:

- Red dots on about 80% of my abdominal region (similar to a rash). Minor itch.
- Oily face
- Facial pores have increased in size
- An increase in frequency of solid bowel movement (now 3-5 times/day vs 1-2/day). The smell has become more offensive as well.
- Increase in appetite (even while taking hoodia).


Is there a protocol I should follow when ending this cycle prematurely? Its been about a week. I will probably finish this week out and stop. So about ~2 weeks total.


If I had to point my finger...I would guess it has to do something with maybe having...

- cortisol levels that are too high/excessive

 

[1HP]

Hi Swordburn. Lethargy seems to be a common side effect. I'm taking rpm and that makes it very bearable. You're dosing 2 x 3 caps? How many hours apart? The funny thing is it seems lethargy with me is sort of dependant on my dosing schedule. It's very bad at 3 x 2 caps but seems a lot better at 2 x 3 caps (taken at 800 and 1600). Anyway if you want to continue I can highly recommend AN's RPM. I take 2 caps around 30 minutes before my rpm servings and like I said before the lethargy is very bearable then. Also working out like an animal on that stuff!

Goodluck with whatever you're going to do!!

 

[SwordBurn]

I take x3 around 10:00am, then x3 at 8:00pm.

I'll try taking the ECA 30min after 11oxo, to see if it helps.

 

[1HP]

How's it going?

I've been experimenting a bit more and I'm 95% sure it's actually the rpm that keeps the lethargy in check for me.

 

[Whacked]

Any updates on the connection here with 11-oxo and reports of lethargy? I am rather confused as I woud have thought blunting 'excess' systemic cortisol/cortisone would have/should have had the opposite effect (improving energy) via several different pathways! Little help here?

 

[brywal312]

I just cycled off of OXO and now I am sure that it was the cause of me feeling tired. I got some nice gains from it though and will definately run it again with my next cycle hopefully 3ad+epistane+oxo+leviathan

 

[Antonek]

I just cycled off of OXO and now I am sure that it was the cause of me feeling tired. I got some nice gains from it though and will definately run it again with my next cycle hopefully 3ad+epistane+oxo+leviathan

3ad+epistane+oxo+leviathan

6-oxo or 11-oxo ??

 

[xjsynx]

Any updates on the connection here with 11-oxo and reports of lethargy? I am rather confused as I woud have thought blunting 'excess' systemic cortisol/cortisone would have/should have had the opposite effect (improving energy) via several different pathways! Little help here?

I dropped the dosage to 450mg a day, and I feel fine now *crosses fingers*