Poll: Which?

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EAA, BCAA or Leucine. Which do you prefer?

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    I ouldlike to see actuall proof on th libido and sleep. Many outside factors can come into play in saying that is the cause.

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    Personally, I would only use BCAA's everyday when in a caloric deficit. Other than that, free-form pre/during/post workout is always good.

    My best option is BCAA's with bulk Leucine added in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MentalTwitch View Post
    I ouldlike to see actuall proof on th libido and sleep. Many outside factors can come into play in saying that is the cause.
    Well than what you really would need to see is the effects on dopamine levels that article speaks about... You have a point in that but now that its been brought to my attention I can look back and think that it may be a legitimate concern.
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    If this is a real issue, it must be individual dependent. I have taken one of my doses of BCAA's immediately prior to bed for the last couple of years and I have not seen these issues.

    I have noticed when I don't closely monitor my coffee consumption or use of stims, I may have restless sleep and wake up groggy. For me, i cut off all stims at about 5PM.

    Justreading. Not doubting you at all, but are you sure there aren't any other variables that could have caused these probs? Just trying to weed out likely candidates.
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    Was goin to buy Excell or maybe Bulk BCAAs fromNP. Now i'm second guessin' it. Maybe the bulk EAAs with Taurine?

    Bulk EAAs from NP
    L-Leucine - 4500mg
    L-Isoleucine - 800mg
    L-Valine - 2000mg
    L-Lysine - 2000mg
    L-Phenylalanine - 1700mg
    L-Threonine - 1400mg
    L-Histidine - 650mg
    L-Methionine -450mg
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    Quote Originally Posted by MentalTwitch View Post
    Was goin to buy Excell or maybe Bulk BCAAs fromNP. Now i'm second guessin' it. Maybe the bulk EAAs with Taurine?

    Bulk EAAs from NP
    L-Leucine - 4500mg
    L-Isoleucine - 800mg
    L-Valine - 2000mg
    L-Lysine - 2000mg
    L-Phenylalanine - 1700mg
    L-Threonine - 1400mg
    L-Histidine - 650mg
    L-Methionine -450mg
    I would have taken the bulk EAAs
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    Quote Originally Posted by vidapreta View Post
    What??

    ditto that - what?

    20 of 200?
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    I like Excell (BCAA powder) and Animal Nitro (EAA pills).
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    Quote Originally Posted by MentalTwitch View Post
    Was goin to buy Excell or maybe Bulk BCAAs fromNP. Now i'm second guessin' it. Maybe the bulk EAAs with Taurine?

    Bulk EAAs from NP
    L-Leucine - 4500mg
    L-Isoleucine - 800mg
    L-Valine - 2000mg
    L-Lysine - 2000mg
    L-Phenylalanine - 1700mg
    L-Threonine - 1400mg
    L-Histidine - 650mg
    L-Methionine -450mg
    I went with XTEND for during workout, and L-Leucine for PWO, along with CEE.
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    15g BCAA + 5g Leucine
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    BCAAs are one of the few 'non essential' supplements that you can actually feel working... although I agree with reaper that it is not all together neccessary to buy an amino supplement. Most quality wheys have a good amino blend.
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    Quote Originally Posted by the russian View Post
    BCAAs are one of the few 'non essential' supplements that you can actually feel working... although I agree with reaper that it is not all together neccessary to buy an amino supplement. Most quality wheys have a good amino blend.

    BCAA is essential supplement , BCAA is EAA
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    Agreed I take 25 grams BCAAs every day.

    I am a grampa, sleep like a baby and still get AM wood and keep the misses PLENTY Happy.

    Oh yea I also swim 9 miles a week, bike 200 miles a week and run 16 miles a week. About 2.5 hours a day of cardio and still weigh 205lbs at 6' at about 11% Body fat. IMO BCAAs really help you keep that precious muscle when taken in a high enough dosage

    Listen to your body and don't believe everything you read.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Skircus7 View Post
    I use BCAAs or EAAs during cardio & weights, and I also add 5-6g of Leucine to my post workout shake.

    All three for me

    yep..same here
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markoni321 View Post
    BCAA is essential supplement , BCAA is EAA
    I stand corrected...

    Still learning, lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsHectic View Post
    Has anyone noticed EAAs messing up there libido or sleep?

    I just read that 25grams of BCAAs per day should mess with libido or dopamine.
    well - this is very interesting. i have been having some sleep issues for the past month. i was chalking it up to DCP which i've stopped and now RPM. but i never considered the BCAAs which i have began to use when this started happening.
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    Not sure, aside from cost why anyone would choose just taking the bcaa's over the EAA's which include the bcaa's? While the bcaa's are likely the most important of the eaa's in particular leucine, they are all needed for optimal protein synthesis.

    And yes, there are plenty of EAA studies showing how effective they are at stimulating protein synthesis. BCAA's alone can't compare to a full spectrum of eaa's.

    I may sometimes ADD bcaa's to eaa's or protein shake, but I would never replace EAA's with a bcaa product.
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    I use both BCAA's and EAA'a while training. I've just replaced WPI wity EAA and have noticed a greater pump. I have no idea if there is any science to back this up, but it is definately happening to me even while I'm on the Cut Diet and between refeeds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
    well - this is very interesting. i have been having some sleep issues for the past month. i was chalking it up to DCP which i've stopped and now RPM. but i never considered the BCAAs which i have began to use when this started happening.
    Where u taking them in the morning or night?
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    I was an advocate of BCAAs above all before, but recently I've switched over to the EAA side. The data is just better, and you are still getting your BCAAs with it.
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    load up on Leucine pre-work out
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markoni321 View Post
    BCAA is essential supplement , BCAA is EAA
    You probably meant to say "BCAAs are a part of EAAs".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skircus7 View Post
    I use BCAAs or EAAs during cardio & weights, and I also add 5-6g of Leucine to my post workout shake.

    All three for me
    All three for me, too. EAAs should form the base. Then add (more) BCAAs. Then add (more) Leucine.
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    i like to get addtional L-Glutamine as well. . .
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    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to strategicmove again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnonyMoose View Post
    i like to get addtional L-Glutamine as well. . .

    glutamine is useless. Stick to leucine and bcaa's.
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    Quote Originally Posted by djbombsquad;
    glutamine is useless. Stick to leucine and bcaa's.
    1) You keep repeating that glutamine is useless! Do you want to finally expand on this a little?
    2) You cannot just stick to Leucine and BCAAs! Complete protein synthesis requires the presence of all the essential amino acids (EAAs), not just the BCAAs. You may take additional leucine and some more of the other BCAAs, but you abolutely need to have all the essential amino acids to nourish your muscle cells optimally! Leucine may be the most anabolic of the BCAAs and EAAs, but without the other BCAAs, and more broadly, without the other EAAs, leucine intake is decidedly ineffective.
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    by David J. Barr


    One of the most frequent supplement questions I get as a strength
    coach is whether or not athletes should use the amino acid glutamine
    for either performance enhancement or size gains.

    The topic comes up so much that it almost seems as though glutamine is
    a "no brainer" supplement just like creatine. In fact, its popularity
    is such that at least two separate online message boards, as well as
    numerous magazines, have feature articles on the use of glutamine as a
    supplement. The dogma of glutamine supplementation had even permeated
    the SWIS symposium to the extent that the numerous conversations about
    this amino acid were solely about how much to take, rather than
    whether or not to take it.

    So, it seems as though everything is pretty cut and dried when it
    comes to glutamine use… or is it? While there was some
    literature-supported speculation as to the potential benefits of
    glutamine supplementation, there needs to be an updated review of the
    literature examining the current status of this purported "wonder
    supplement." In fact, there's quite a bit of information that's been
    left out of the popular bodybuilding literature that needs to be
    brought to light.

    But before we get on to that, we should review some of the basics of glutamine.


    Glutamine: The Basics

    For those of you who are new to the concept of glutamine
    supplementation, you should know that it's a non-essential amino acid
    created largely by our muscles. It's also noteworthy that glutamine is
    the most abundant free amino acid in our bodies, comprising up to 2/3
    of the muscle free amino acid pool.(13) This fact, coupled with the
    idea that muscle is the largest producer of this amino acid, could
    suggest that supplementation would be beneficial.

    One potential problem with this is that glutamine is a non-essential
    amino acid (meaning that we don't have to consume outside sources
    containing this amino acid because our bodies can make it on its own),
    but this is where things get interesting: the use of glutamine by many
    different cells in our bodies is so great that there may be times when
    its use exceeds its availability, therefore glutamine has been termed
    a "conditionally essential" amino acid.(1Cool

    This means that during times of physical stress the body may actually
    need glutamine from the diet to maintain proper cellular function.
    Clearly, activities such as resistance training constitute a physical
    stress on the body, which is one reason that athletes have been
    targeted for glutamine supplementation.

    Another interesting fact about our muscles and glutamine is the issue
    of transport. For an amino acid to get into or out of our muscles, it
    has to be transported by specific carriers. Using these carriers, our
    muscle takes up amino acids according to demand from protein
    composition (i.e. what our muscles need the most), BUT amino acid
    release is NOT according to composition.

    Alanine and glutamine can account for up to 50% of amino acid release
    from muscle despite accounting for only about 15% of total muscle
    protein.(31) Obviously, this is a huge discrepancy—which is normally
    made up for through glutamine production—but as mentioned earlier,
    during times of physical stress (i.e. exercise), the synthesis of
    glutamine is hindered. Everyone knows that lacking even one amino acid
    can hinder muscle growth, which fortifies the theory of glutamine
    supplementation by athletes.

    Now that you're familiar with the basics behind glutamine
    supplementation, it's time to delve into the literature and pull out
    some more specific theories as to the beneficial effects of glutamine
    supplementation.


    Glutamine and Muscle Mass

    Interest first arose in glutamine as a supplement when it was found
    that glutamine enrichment elevated levels of protein synthesis in
    isolated rat muscles.(21) This isn't surprising since it's also been
    found that muscle protein synthesis levels can be correlated with free
    glutamine levels.(17) It's also been shown in vitro using rat skeletal
    muscle cells that glutamine may decrease protein breakdown.(22)

    Additionally, we know that the anabolic/catabolic state of a muscle
    cell is related to it's hydration status—this simply means that
    cellular swelling has an anabolic or an anticatabolic effect on the
    affected cells (including muscle cells). Based on this, it's been
    found that glutamine supplementation may mediate cell swelling and
    therefore an anticatabolic effect through either increasing cell
    swelling or hindering cellular dehydration.(2Cool

    Sure you say, these theories are all well and good in cell cultures or
    animals, but what about the human studies? Well, studies in humans
    indicate that glutamine supplementation may improve nitrogen balance
    in critically ill patients, as well as assist in the prevention of
    protein synthesis decreases following surgery (a HUGE physical stress)
    or following a 14-hour fast.(13, 12,24,13) There have even been a
    couple of studies done on resistance trained subjects (more on that a
    little later)!


    Glutamine and Overtraining

    We've all felt the scourge of overtraining: the lethargy, the
    sickness, and the lack of desire to train. Aside from the horrible
    feeling associated with overtraining, we also know that the longer
    we're out of the gym, the longer we go without any anabolic stimulus
    to our muscles. Based on this, another theory suggesting glutamine
    supplementation for athletes involves the prevention of overtraining.

    Glutamine is used as a fuel source by many cells of our body,
    including many cells of our immune system. Now if you recall that
    there are times of stress where the body's production fails to meet
    its needs for glutamine, you can see that this could negatively affect
    the immune system. In fact, you may not be surprised to find that
    blood glutamine levels may be compromised following exercise induced
    overtraining.(1)

    Surveys of endurance athletes supplementing with glutamine following a
    marathon race showed lower rates of infection than those who didn't
    supplement.(8,9) As for the applicability to bodybuilding, one study
    showed that resistance exercise may induce a small transient (ie
    short-term) negative effect on some cells of the immune system,
    although plasma glutamine levels weren't examined.(6)

    So now we have theories for glutamine supplementation to increase
    protein synthesis/inhibit protein breakdown, as well as boost immunity
    following intense exercise. This sounds great, but we have yet to look
    at glutamine's potential effect to stimulate glycogen replenishment
    following exercise. Glutamine infusion has been shown to enhance
    glycogen stores following cycling exercise twice as much as compared
    to subjects who infused saline or other amino acids.(27) If this
    happened after weight training, it could even help with our cellular
    swelling and have the aforementioned postive effect on protein
    accretion.

    Another study supports the use of glutamine for enhancing muscle
    glycogen. Bowtell et al. found that glutamine supplementation
    following exercise enhanced glycogen resynthesis in muscle just as
    well as the ingestion of a glucose polymer.(4)

    Sadly at this point, many readers have already gone out and bought
    their kilos of glutamine, and are now reading only to find out how to
    use the stuff. You may argue, why not? There's plenty of evidence to
    support the theories presented! This was exactly the thinking when
    glutamine was introduced to bodybuilders several years ago. In fact,
    the journal articles reviewed above are the same research papers that
    can be found time and again, in any outdated article that's trying to
    sell you on glutamine. But things have recently changed; new studies
    have been done on animals, and people involved in resistance training,
    but the results are less than positive.


    What the Glutamine Salespeople Don't Want You To Know:

    Glutamine and Protein Synthesis — The other side of the coin

    We've seen the theory that glutamine levels in the blood and muscle
    may decrease during or following exercise, and that this decrease
    correlates with reduced levels of protein synthesis. Several studies
    have addressed whether this relationship between glutamine and protein
    synthesis was a coincidental or a causal (meaning that one caused the
    other) relationship.

    The first study compared the abilities of glutamine and the amino acid
    alanine to stimulate protein synthesis in rats with artificially
    reduced blood and muscle glutamine levels.(23) As expected, glutamine
    infusion increased intramuscular glutamine levels, while alanine
    didn't. Surprisingly, even depleting muscle glutamine levels by 60%
    had no effect on protein synthesis. What may also surprise you is that
    restoring blood and muscle glutamine levels to normal had no effect on
    protein synthesis compared to rats receiving no glutamine treatment!
    Additionally, even though whole body protein turnover didn't change,
    alanine stimulated protein synthesis!

    In support of this contention, researchers studied the effect of
    glutamine supplementation on septic rats. Sepsis is a severely
    catabolic condition, during which glutamine levels (and protein
    synthesis) fall. Again, this study showed that despite increasing
    muscle glutamine levels to even higher than normal, it had no effect
    on protein synthesis or the catabolic state of the rats.(11)

    Cumulatively, these studies show that decreased or increased levels of
    glutamine in the muscle has no effect on protein synthesis.

    Another study, performed on people, examined the effect of adding
    glutamine to an amino acid mixture on muscle protein synthesis .(30)
    Ultimately, infusion of the original amino acid mixture increased
    protein synthesis by nearly 50%, but adding glutamine to this mix had
    no additional effect. This study is particularly relevant because most
    consumers of glutamine do so following a workout, along with other
    amino acids (or a whole protein).

    Finally, Wusteman et al., used a drug to reduce muscle protein
    synthesis, along with muscle glutamine levels, in rats.(29) Much like
    the Olde Damink et al. study, restoring muscle glutamine levels to
    normal had no effect on protein synthesis. This study further supports
    the concept that blood and muscle glutamine levels have no bearing on
    protein synthesis and protein turnover.


    Editor's note: Part 2, which pretty much presents a case for
    relegating glutamine to the Retired Supplements shelf (except for very
    specific circumstances) will be posted next week.


    David J. Barr, CSCS, MSc. Candidate, is a Varsity Strength and
    Conditioning Coach at the University of Waterloo.

    So to conclude this is what we came to conclusions in the office.

    BCAA's are what the body uses to make Glutamine, which is the most abundant amino acid in the formation of muscle tissue. In fact, Glutamine comprises over 97% of new muscle cell growth. In other words, you can eat protein all day long but it's only the Glutamine that will ultimately grow more muscle. By now you may be wondering; "Why not just take Glutamine?" Well, that's exactly what most companies thought too, (or more accurately, that's what they wanted you to think). It's the reason Glutamine went on to became a very popular supplement. There's just one problem:

    The body cannot absorb orally ingested Glutamine!!!

    Most supplemental Glutamine is destroyed by digestive enzymes before it ever gets into the bloodstream. That's why no one ever got any impressive results from the use of all that extra Glutamine. The ONLY way for your muscles to reap the benefits of Glutamine is the way nature intended - by converting it from the Branched Chain Amino Acids! Buy some BCAA's or leucine. Save your money. Go with physique or any cinch product.


    He did not say it directly but he presented evidence to back his
    statement up that supplementing with glutamine is a waste of money..
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    Quote Originally Posted by djbombsquad;
    ...He did not say it directly but he presented evidence to back his
    statement up that supplementing with glutamine is a waste of money...
    Well, he did not say it directly because that would be a wild speculation. The only thing that is generally accepted is that glutamine absorption is poor.

    I made a contribution to another thread on the same subject. See post # 71, if you wish:
    Best BCAA
    Oral absorption is the key! And I would like to repeat my conclusion in that post:
    "In my opinion, therefore, the only problem with glutamine supplementation that could give the erroneous impression that glutamine is worthless, is the fact that only about 20% of regular L-Glutamine consumed ever reach the blood stream to elicit anti-cataboilic and anabolic effects. This means that 80% of ingested Glutamine is absorbed by the intestines and used for immune-system support. To get around this situation, very large amounts (> 20g) of Glutamine would need to be supplemented daily. Some have even suggested placing the glutamine directly under the tongue and allowing it to dissolve slowly. This way more Glutamine will be absorbed into the blood stream. Alternatively, advanced Gluamine forms and Glutamine precursors can be used. Examples include L-Glutamine-Alpha Ketoglutarate, N-Acetyl-L-Glutamine, N-Alanyl-L-Glutamine, L-Alanine, and Alpha Ketoglutarate. This way, a smaller quantity would be required."
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    If it was that easy I think Id go back to taking glutamine. I will stick to protein leucine and bcaa's oh yea and food.
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    Quote Originally Posted by djbombsquad;
    If it was that easy I think Id go back to taking glutamine. I will stick to protein leucine and bcaa's oh yea and food.
    Fine! I only get uncomfortable when I see such very strong comments such as "glutamine is useless" without any convincing backing.
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    i never go a workout without it!
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    I could pull up pubmed studys 10's 20 of them that show glutamine shows zero effect on muscle building. I just gotta find it in my email. I booke marked them some where.
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    1. Some recent studies have shown that orally ingested glutamine is not absorbed well through the gut. Some studies claim as little as 2% (!!) of orally ingested glutamine is absorbed. If true this makes taking glutamine supplements next to useless.

    2. Glutamine is a non-essential amino acid. This means your body does not need to consume glutamine, it can produce it on it's own. Because the body does not require consumption of non-essential amino acids, the digestive track will tend to just break them into their component parts, and then synthesize whatever it needs out of the components. Even if you didn't ingest any glutamine whatsoever, as long as you ate enough protein in general your body would not even notice, it'd just produce the glutamine it needed for itself.
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    Some of the board members are confident in recommending it even if studies have shown no benefit so far to healthly individuals? I think the comparison to vitamin C falls apart at the cash register. I agree that there is no harm in taking glutamine, but it's pretty expensive to buy soley based on theories that it may help. Based on the research I've seen so far, I would save the money you were going to spend on glutamine and buy more protein or even bcaa/leucine.
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    Glutamine isn't worthless by any means! Smile

    But to say it's has muscle building like effects just isn't proven. And to say it spares muscle from being destroyed? In extreme situations that is true. But bodybuilding isn't one of them. To compared a leg workout with a trauma burn victim is apples to oranges.

    The studies that show muscle sparing like abilities are always with trauma victims or people with severely compromised immune systems. In those cases, it does help to preserve muscle.

    That is where bodybuilding stepped in and figured that doing a workout is like trauma to your body and therefore glutamine will help you spare the muscle you just worked to create!

    Ummm.. working out is hardly "traumatic." And while I feel I need a wheelchair after a leg workout, it's crazy to compared that to having a disease that is eating away at muscle or being in a severe accident where the body is using glutamine at massive amounts for repair.

    But glutamine does not equate to bigger muscles. And that is where the myth lies.

    Not that it has no benefits because it clearly does.

    I've just seen too many articles saying that glutamine is an essential supplement to building and maintain muscle mass. That is B.S.
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    Quote Originally Posted by djbombsquad View Post
    I could pull up pubmed studys 10's 20 of them that show glutamine shows zero effect on muscle building. I just gotta find it in my email. I booke marked them some where.
    When you say "glutamine is useless" (in the sense that it does not elicit any effects before, during, or after exercise), then the only study that would be convincing, even if it is a mice study, would be one that shows the possibility of triggering recovery and anabolism while inhibiting glutamine. Anything else is speculation. By the way, I am not saying glutamine necessarily drives anabolism. There are definitely more dominant compounds. Yet, without glutamine, many metabolic processes would collapse!
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    Quote Originally Posted by djbombsquad;
    Glutamine isn't worthless by any means! Smile...
    Now, you are talking!

    Quote Originally Posted by djbombsquad;
    I've just seen too many articles saying that glutamine is an essential supplement to building and maintain muscle mass. That is B.S.
    Please edit, if it is a typo!

    No one is seriously maintaining glutamine is a type of leucine in terms of triggering muscle growth. My entire reaction was motivated by the unnecessarily strong statement that glutamine is useless. But, I am happy to see that you are now saying "Glutamine isn't worthless by any means!".
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperX View Post
    I've tried the Xtend refreshing watermelon version. Can anyone else comment on the other flavors ?
    the orange is great...reminds me of a orange julius:-)

    I really like XTEND !
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