Post Workout Shake Help Please

[dsw222]

For about the past 8 months I have been doing a post workout shake of 60g malto/dex and 30g protein (either ON 100% whey or dymatize elite whey) mixed with water. I'm starting to wonder if I have been doing this wrong the whole time. Should I be taking in the 60g carbs alone and then waiting 15-20 mins to take in the protein?

Also how would this be done with WMS? Mix the protein with the WMS and drink together?

And is ON or Elite ok even though most people recommend some form of pure WPI? I'm kind of on a budget here (college student) and would love to get the most bang for my buck. But if it makes that much of a difference, then I'll give WPI a shot...

Thanks for any opinons and input

 

[Vicarious]

given the choice it would probably be better to get the carbs in first. I workout in the morning. I usually whack down a whole grain bagel or a bananna on my way to work afterwards. then i throw back the protein about 15 minutes later when i get to work.

 

[smalls556]

do the carbs, then 20 min later do the protien

 

[Rodja]

WMS with BCAAs and then a meal/shake 30 mins later.

 

[bitterplacebo]

Not sure if I want to get too wrapped up in another thread like this, but I'd recommend not worrying too much about separating the macronutrients, you can digest/absorb them fine at the same time. Just try to sip the combined shake over a period of time, don't slam the whole thing down if what you're going for is the "fast" nourishment post-workout hypothesis.

Also you may want to up the amount of protein you have there, but at most double (60g). If money's an issue, you don't have to take the whole amount of protein from some expensive, hardcore protein supplement. Just add a can of tuna or something simple like that.

 

[arena]

do the carbs, then 20 min later do the protien

i disagree. in order to get the protein in the muscle you need an insulin spike. so take the two together

 

[bitterplacebo]

i disagree. in order to get the protein in the muscle you need an insulin spike. so take the two together

I wouldn't agree entirely. Protein will get in the muscle as amino acids after it is digested and broken down into them. Surely, digestion of protein can occur in the absence of the carbs/larger insulin spike, and amino acids will be available for transport into muscle tissue. But yeah, it's ok to take both together.

 

[Wedgylx]

i disagree. in order to get the protein in the muscle you need an insulin spike. so take the two together

Wont your insuline spike regaurdless of carb consumption?

I've been giving WMS a shot, its been decent. I can't say its that much better than my usual - a whole wheat bagel.

I've been going with 75g WMS, 2 scoops Xtend (~11g), 3g Creatine Gluconate, 2.5g GEE, and a little crystal light to improve the flavor. I've recently decided to remove the GEE because I find it too be too acidic - I guess that can be said of many Ethyl Esters. It causes a dull soreness in my throat and i actually think i may have started to see softening of my tooth enamel.

I'm going to be going with 75g WMS, 2 Scoops Xtend, 3g Creatine GLuconate, a little crystal light, and ~8g Whey. I've found the whey greatly improves the flavor.

 

[bitterplacebo]

Wont your insuline spike regaurdless of carb consumption?

Yes, there's insulin response to all foods that are consumed. Carbs will produce a larger one, though.

 

[redhawk76]

To answer the question about WPI, it is not really necessary (on a budget) IMO unless you have digestion issues with WPC

 

[Rodja]

i disagree. in order to get the protein in the muscle you need an insulin spike. so take the two together

Leucine creates an insulin spike. Also, to say that this one meal is the be-all, end-all of nutrition is outlandish. It does not matter if you have a great post-WO meal if you eat crap for the rest of the day. Getting lean protein and good carbs is all that is really important for a good post-WO meal.

 

[bitterplacebo]

Leucine creates an insulin spike. Also, to say that this one meal is the be-all, end-all of nutrition is outlandish. It does not matter if you have a great post-WO meal if you eat crap for the rest of the day. Getting lean protein and good carbs is all that is really important for a good post-WO meal.

Good points, thank you.
But why doesn't the dietary fat get any love in the PWO nourishment?
It's safe to add some good source of fat, too!

 

[dalvare1]

Good points, thank you.
But why doesn't the dietary fat get any love in the PWO nourishment?
It's safe to add some good source of fat, too!

I wouldnt add any fat to the mix, it will only slow down absorption of carbs/protein.

hydrolyzed proteins and maltodextrin/fructose is the best combination for PWO recovery

 

[Steveoph]

I would add any fat to the mix, it will only slow down absorption of carbs/protein.

hydrolyzed proteins and maltodextrin/fructose is the best combination for PWO recovery

I assume you meant wouldn't.

Personally I do 0.5g/lb CHO and 0.25 g/lb Protein in my shake, usually just WPC cuz I'm cheap. I might throw some Glutamine or BCAA or Isoleucine for my protein if I'm feeling fancy , but not always. And for the carbs sometimes I just do gatorade, or some ground oats, or I also have some maltodextrin and WMS I experiment with.

Personally I take my shake as soon as possible post workout, or start it 1 hour into my weights if its going to bea long workout. I tend to drink half then wait 5-10 min then drink the 2nd half. Then I have a solid meal 45 minutes later with fats and whatever else I want, often some WW pasta and stuff thrown in.

 

[arena]

I would add any fat to the mix, it will only slow down absorption of carbs/protein.

hydrolyzed proteins and maltodextrin/fructose is the best combination for PWO recovery

fructose is the worst for pwo. it is almost impossible to store fructose in muscle cells. the liver ends up storing all of it. best to take fructose in the morning when liver is depleted

 

[smokey the bear]

Some like it simple. I take a serving of cytogainer post workout. Easy, efficient , and affordable... 54g pro, 80 carbs, 5g fat, and a mild multi vit/min blend... ohh and only six grams of simple sugars...

 

[djbombsquad]

Published studies show that protein with carbs are the best.

I got the link threw http://physicians.shaklee.com/displayContent.htm?fileName=archive1987_92.xml&sectionName=shakScience than clicked on the study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=1601794&query_hl=84&itool=pubmed_docsum

The results suggest that postexercise muscle glycogen storage can be enhanced with a carbohydrate-protein supplement as a result of the interaction of carbohydrate and protein on insulin secretion.

 

[bitterplacebo]

Published studies show that protein with carbs are the best.

I got the link threw http://physicians.shaklee.com/displayContent.htm?fileName=archive1987_92.xml&sectionName=shakScience than clicked on the study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=1601794&query_hl=84&itool=pubmed_docsum

The results suggest that postexercise muscle glycogen storage can be enhanced with a carbohydrate-protein supplement as a result of the interaction of carbohydrate and protein on insulin secretion.

I wouldn't recommend putting too much faith in a single published study. If one looks hard enough, you'll find many contradicting evidences and oversimplifications in specific contexts.

But, yes, this study does conclude protein and carbohydrates after exercise increase the rate of glycogen replenishment. I'm not sure how important it is for those reading that they immediately refill depleted glycogen stores, but as long as you're not going to exercise intensely until the next day, I think well-balanced meals throughout the day will accomplish the same thing. For me, I'm more concerned with increased protein synthesis after exercising, which that study doesn't go into.

Some things I've seen regarding protein (amino acids) and carbohydrates and their effect on protein synthesis.

http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/88/2/386
"We conclude that essential amino acids with carbohydrates stimulate muscle protein anabolism by increasing muscle protein synthesis when ingested 1 or 3 h after resistance exercise."

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/281/2/E197
"These results indicate that the response of net muscle protein synthesis to consumption of an EAC [essential aminos & carbohydrate] solution immediately before resistance exercise is greater than that when the solution is consumed after exercise, primarily because of an increase in muscle protein synthesis as a result of increased delivery of amino acids to the leg."

Which is it, carb & protein before exercise or after? Probably both. And probably not in such the specific contexts that they present in the study.

I say, just relax, you'll never know for sure what the perfect method is to optimize your results from diet, exercise, and supplementation.

 

[arena]

Some like it simple. I take a serving of cytogainer post workout. Easy, efficient , and affordable... 54g pro, 80 carbs, 5g fat, and a mild multi vit/min blend... ohh and only six grams of simple sugars...

only six grams of simple sugar, but 74 grams worth of starch

 

[smokey the bear]

only six grams of simple sugar, but 74 grams worth of starch

maltodextrins take slightly longer to break down, yet spark a strong insulin response.:donut:

But, don't be fooled by the label of "complex carb" that malto sometimes receives from manufacturers who want to disguise this relatively simple/high GI carb. As the walking donut indicates, i am bulking... Also, quick muscle glycogen replenishment is a must for me right now. I do cardio after weight training, and seeing as i am bulking, this is useful to me...

 

[bitterplacebo]

...As the walking donut indicates, i am bulking... Also, quick muscle glycogen replenishment is a must for me right now. I do cardio after weight training, and seeing as i am bulking, this is useful to me...

That's understandable. I think if one chooses to do cardio while bulking for lean mass, then it would be best to replenish glycogen quickly to minimize the risk of your muscle going catabolic during cardio. If it were me bulking, though, I'd be lazy and just cut out the cardio. Never liked that stuff.

 

[dsw222]

maltodextrins take slightly longer to break down, yet spark a strong insulin response.:donut:

But, don't be fooled by the label of "complex carb" that malto sometimes receives from manufacturers who want to disguise this relatively simple/high GI carb. As the walking donut indicates, i am bulking... Also, quick muscle glycogen replenishment is a must for me right now. I do cardio after weight training, and seeing as i am bulking, this is useful to me...

what do you do when you're cutting? i'm on a caloric defecit and have been doing 2 a day cardio sessions (usually intervals), and the weight is definitely coming off. i just want to make sure i have everything fine tuned to get best results.

i left my PWO shake just as it was for bulking (30g protein, 60g carbs), but wasnt sure about this and would love to hear what some of you guys do differently for bulk/cut

 

[Vicarious]

i left my PWO shake just as it was for bulking (30g protein, 60g carbs), but wasnt sure about this and would love to hear what some of you guys do differently for bulk/cut

60 grams of carbs at one shot seems like alot during a cut. Doing 2 sessions of cardio helps to burn them off though. Its up to your body. try cutting the carb intake to around 30 grams PWO if you MUST have carbs like that. I keep carbs around 60 - 100/day right now and have lost a significant amount of fat and weight. Just eating protein still delivers a certain amount of carbs. Probably more than you think if you haven't added them all up from your diet. I like to keep my carbs low for the week and carb up on Sat (around 300 gr) then about 200 gr on sunday. then its back to depletion. has worked well for me. Probably not the best but whatever. Cutting sucks anyways...dam summer and beach days!

 

[dalvare1]

Fructose is NOT the worst for PWO. A lot of people use fructose after workouts, you must replenish both muscle AND liver glycogen stores after a workout! :study:

fructose is the worst for pwo. it is almost impossible to store fructose in muscle cells. the liver ends up storing all of it. best to take fructose in the morning when liver is depleted

 

[smokey the bear]

If it were me bulking, though, I'd be lazy and just cut out the cardio. Never liked that stuff.

I usually totally avoid the "C" word during bulking. But, i am currently doing off season football training and doing C... is totally necessary at this point... Actually, i can honestly say that manipulating my carbohydrate intake is the most important aspect of my current diet..

 

[smokey the bear]

what do you do when you're cutting?
i left my PWO shake just as it was for bulking (30g protein, 60g carbs), but wasnt sure about this and would love to hear what some of you guys do differently for bulk/cut

When cutting i reduce pwo carb significantly, and eliminate any and all simple sugars from my diet. My macro breakdown would look something like C/P/F=20/40/40... I have never done a full blown pre-competition type cutting diet or training regimen so mine has always been more geared toward recomposition rather than full on weight loss. I know that the macro breakdown seems like alot of fat, but i find that my body responds really well to a diet high in unsaturated fats/oils...:burg:

 

[bitterplacebo]

I usually totally avoid the "C" word during bulking. But, i am currently doing off season football training and doing C... is totally necessary at this point... Actually, i can honestly say that manipulating my carbohydrate intake is the most important aspect of my current diet..

I hear that, my friend.

When cutting i reduce pwo carb significantly, and eliminate any and all simple sugars from my diet. My macro breakdown would look something like C/P/F=20/40/40... I have never done a full blown pre-competition type cutting diet or training regimen so mine has always been more geared toward recomposition rather than full on weight loss. I know that the macro breakdown seems like alot of fat, but i find that my body responds really well to a diet high in unsaturated fats/oils...

My cutting plans are similar. No sugars, most carbs from fibrous vegetables or fruit at about 80-100g a day. High protein. High fat as much as 50% of calories. Every third day a slight carb up with starchier carbs. PWO carbs are about 25-30g from spinach, green beens, asparagus, or collard greens.

I just finished 12 weeks of this style of diet and was pretty happy with the results. Down ~30 pounds, little of that being muscle as my strength and lifts have all increased.

 

[smokey the bear]

I just finished 12 weeks of this style of diet and was pretty happy with the results. Down ~30 pounds, little of that being muscle as my strength and lifts have all increased.

WOW 30 lbs!!! i cant even imagine... Thats awsome bro, keep up the good work..

while your getting lean, i still look like :donut:

 

[thedon3534]

I used to do the 2:1 ratio of malto/dextrose to protein and also used surge from biotest.... and now I am just taking about 50 grams of whey concentrate and a couple pieces of fruit (banana, orange, apple, or pineapple/melon). I notice no difference in muscle/strength gain and it is also giving me more nutrients for the day. A little off topic, but I am getting really into eating tons of fruits and vegetables throughout my day and it has really helped me to lean out and keep my strength.

 

[dalvare1]

I used to do the 2:1 ratio of malto/dextrose to protein and also used surge from biotest.... and now I am just taking about 50 grams of whey concentrate and a couple pieces of fruit (banana, orange, apple, or pineapple/melon). I notice no difference in muscle/strength gain and it is also giving me more nutrients for the day. A little off topic, but I am getting really into eating tons of fruits and vegetables throughout my day and it has really helped me to lean out and keep my strength.

and those carbs are fructose, which supports my point.

 

[arena]

and those carbs are fructose, which supports my point.

fructose take long to metabolize, which is why it has low gi index. this means it takes long to replenish liver. so y not just take dextrose, which can also replenish both muscle cells and the liver.

also, if ur only doing anerobic exercising, its unlikey that ur liver is depleted because it is hard to utilize it in a short enough time.

 

[dalvare1]

fructose take long to metabolize, which is why it has low gi index. this means it takes long to replenish liver. so y not just take dextrose, which can also replenish both muscle cells and the liver.

also, if ur only doing anerobic exercising, its unlikey that ur liver is depleted because it is hard to utilize it in a short enough time.

1) Thats why it is taken with Maltodextrin, which has a high GI rating

2) What do you consider a "short amount of time"? Liver glycogen does get depleted during weightlifting. Especially with most workouts lasting 45+ minutes