pre-WO arginine: maybe not such a good thing

[same_old]

Entrez PubMed

Oral arginine does not stimulate basal or augment exercise-induced GH secretion in either young or old adults.

Department of Exercise Science, University of Southern California, Los Angeles, USA. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: Growth hormone (GH) helps maintain body composition and metabolism in adults. However, basal and peak GH decline with age. Exercise produces a physiologic GH response that is subnormal in elderly people. Arginine (Arg) infusion can augment GH secretion, but the efficacy of oral Arg to improve GH response to exercise has not been explored. We investigated whether oral Arg increases GH secretion in young and old people at rest and during exercise. METHODS: Twenty young (Y: 22.1 +/- 0.9 y; SEM) and 8 old (O: 68.5 +/- 2.1 y) male and female subjects underwent three different trials following determination of their one-repetition maximum strength (1-RM); exercise only (EO; 3 sets, 8-10 reps at 85% of 1-RM; on 12 separate resistive lifts), Arg only (5.0 g), or Arg + exercise. Blood samples were collected between successive lifts, and GH (ng x ml(-1)) was determined via RIA. RESULTS: In Y vs O: Basal GH secreted (area under the curve) was 543.6 +/- 84.0 vs 211.5 +/- 63.0. During EO, values were 986.6 +/- 156.6 and 517.8 +/- 85.5. Both were significantly lower in the older individuals (p < .05). Oral Arg alone did not result in any increase in GH secretion at rest (310.8 +/- 73.2 vs 262.9 +/- 141.2). When Arg was coadministered during exercise, GH release was not affected in either the young or old and appeared to be blunted in the young compared to the exercise only trial in the young. CONCLUSION: Based upon these findings, we concluded that oral Arg does not stimulate GH secretion and may impair GH release during resistive exercise.

 

[Wordz_Worf]

Damn.

First I read Arginine with Creatine inhibits Creatine uptake,now this??

Maybe switching to something like Citrulline Malate will still give pumps without the negatives??

 

[same_old]

Damn.

First I read Arginine with Creatine inhibits Creatine uptake,now this??

Maybe switching to something like Citrulline Malate will still give pumps without the negatives??

i've personally given up on "pumps", at least the ones invoked by NO products. i only use arginine to potentiate GABA products.

CNS stims and the new wave of "drive" drugs and nootropics are good choices for pre-WO. oh yeah, and also steroids

 

[poison]

I'd hardly call that a 'negative'; I don't know ANYONE who's taking it for GH release. It's just not a 'positive'.

But I'm agreed: arginine is purely cosmetic as used for pumps.

 

[JJC]

Agreed. I'm not sure I buy into the whole idea that NO products dialate your blood vessels so more nutrients can reach your muscles either.

Arginine products can be fun and help with confidence, but I kind they're of think it's a waste of money. Same with GMS I think...although it sounds like it would be fun to try!

 

[bigstabile]

I'm pretty sure that in order to get the gh boost you need to stack it with lycine, in a different form, ie AAKG and l-lycine.

 

[jmh80]

Yes - it's Arg + Lys that increases GH levels. Pretty sure I remember Bobo recommending it pre-breakfast, during WO, and before bed.

 

[Socrates44]

Im glad everyone is finally off the high-horse of arginine. It was the new creatine but given time its miraculous ways are slowly dimming. I like arginine but I rarely use it seeing as cancer is so prevalent in my family. (Thats all I need, more ROS's).

The best pump that actually stimulated muscle synth from me without using Arg is Beta-Alanine with some leucine and citrulline malate.

Arginine(with Ornithine), Lysine, Trib and some anti-oxidants before bed will help release test and keep your GH levels up.

 

[same_old]

Yes - it's Arg + Lys that increases GH levels. Pretty sure I remember Bobo recommending it pre-breakfast, during WO, and before bed.

biggity-bam yo:

Entrez PubMed

[GH] was significantly elevated during resting conditions 60 min after amino acid ingestion compared with the placebo trial

take it any time except for prior to exercise!

i wonder how significant the increase was...

 

[jmh80]

No clue same_old.

I thought Bobo found a study about the effect of taking arg + lys DURING a WO to help increase the amount of GH normally secreted.
But - I'm old and it's been a while so I could be wrong.

 

[Wordz_Worf]

i've personally given up on "pumps", at least the ones invoked by NO products. i only use arginine to potentiate GABA products.

CNS stims and the new wave of "drive" drugs and nootropics are good choices for pre-WO. oh yeah, and also steroids

So adding Arginine to GABA increases it's effects???

I read that Arginine inhibits the absorbtion of GABA...

I currently take 5 grams of GABA before bed with ZMA,do you think I should add a few grams of Arg. with them??

 

[same_old]

So adding Arginine to GABA increases it's effects???

I read that Arginine inhibits the absorbtion of GABA...

I currently take 5 grams of GABA before bed with ZMA,do you think I should add a few grams of Arg. with them??

Entrez PubMed

the doses used are much higher, but one can see that a distinct relationship exists. it certainly makes a difference for me...i will add the l-valine this week to complete the bedtime GH trifecta :head:

5g of GABA makes me too flushed - i have to go with 3g, but i am also senstive to 100mg niacin the same way, and many others dont even blink at that dose.

 

[Wordz_Worf]

Entrez PubMed

the doses used are much higher, but one can see that a distinct relationship exists. it certainly makes a difference for me...i will add the l-valine this week to complete the bedtime GH trifecta :head:

5g of GABA makes me too flushed - i have to go with 3g, but i am also senstive to 100mg niacin the same way, and many others dont even blink at that dose.

Good read,thanks for the link.

I just took my bed-time Gaba and 3 grams pf Arginine along with it,I'll see how I feel.

Also took 200mgs of Grapeseed Extract to counter the negatibe effects of the Arginine,I wonder if that will hinder the absorbtion fo them at all.

 

[Wordz_Worf]

3 hours later and I'm still awake!!!!

Should'nt have slept in so late.

 

[workin2005]

I'd hardly call that a 'negative'; I don't know ANYONE who's taking it for GH release. It's just not a 'positive'.

But I'm agreed: arginine is purely cosmetic as used for pumps.

I agree that NO products have been largely over hyped and mis marketed. I wonder if the effects are purely cosmetic however...:think:

In defense of NO products, I will say that they do give me a great pump in the gym...That said, I know I'm getting more blood to the muscle I'm training. That said, I feel I experience a better workout with better recovery. Perhaps the other supplements I'm taking are being shuttled to the muscle's more efficiently during this time as well....

Just my observations...if nothing else, NO supps are fun ;-)

Workin

 

[same_old]

I'd hardly call that a 'negative'; I don't know ANYONE who's taking it for GH release. It's just not a 'positive'.

significantly reduced GH release during workouts not a negative???? unless someone is on the "get smaller, weaker and fatter" plan, this is important IMHO.

 

[jmh80]

Hold on same old - you should qualify that post with "arginine only".

Find a study that looks at Arg + lys and then we'll see about the effects on GH when taken before a WO.

 

[workin2005]

Hold on same old - you should qualify that post with "arginine only".

Find a study that looks at Arg + lys and then we'll see about the effects on GH when taken before a WO.

:duel: ;-)

Workin

 

[same_old]

Hold on same old - you should qualify that post with "arginine only".

Find a study that looks at Arg + lys and then we'll see about the effects on GH when taken before a WO.

i did, about 9 posts ago. did you read the study? look below.

also, i found another one that points to a GH reduction by arginine pre-WO:

Entrez PubMed

arg+val:
Entrez PubMed

 

[Sir Savage]

Damn.

First I read Arginine with Creatine inhibits Creatine uptake,now this??

Where did you read that?

 

[workin2005]

Where did you read that?

bump...

I've read BCAA's can inhibit the uptake of Arginine but I've not seen a study showing Arginine inhibiting Creatine uptake.:think:

Can you remember where you read that?

Thanks,

Workin

 

[jmh80]

ALRI has some research quoted in the write-up for N'Gorge as to why arginine is bad to take when taking creatine.

 

[Sir Savage]

Except the arginine in their formula, apparently.

 

[workin2005]

ALRI has some research quoted in the write-up for N'Gorge as to why arginine is bad to take when taking creatine.

I'll have to check that out...thanks ;-)

Workin

 

[blah12345]

I think regardless of whether it helps release GH, arginine is beneficial. Arginine DOES in fact dilate your blood vessels (it is also used in viagra and there are many first-hand occurences) which means a few things:

1. Nutrients and other supplements are arriving at the muscles faster and in more abundance.

2. Your confidence is boosted due to the pump, consequently boosting your lifts.

3. Your recovery time is better due to the opened vessels are flow of blood.

Increased blood flow is rarely a bad thing and increasing vascularity is very useful in my opinion.

 

[same_old]

I think regardless of whether it helps release GH, arginine is beneficial. Arginine DOES in fact dilate your blood vessels (it is also used in viagra and there are many first-hand occurences) which means a few things:

1. Nutrients and other supplements are arriving at the muscles faster and in more abundance.

2. Your confidence is boosted due to the pump, consequently boosting your lifts.

3. Your recovery time is better due to the opened vessels are flow of blood.

Increased blood flow is rarely a bad thing and increasing vascularity is very useful in my opinion.

fine, bro. just dont use it before a workout.

 

[Sir Savage]

fine, bro. just dont use it before a workout.

Not so fast.

I'm running this past Par and Stay Puft. I don't think they agree.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

I'll back you up here Savage.

GH release during workout is overrated.

Unless you are performing a lactate based fat loss training session, it's not something of concern.

If you're sipping on BCAA's or the typical Dextrose + Hydrolyzed whey type of peri-workout shake, the circulating insulin is going to blunt GH release/upregulate somatostatin signaling anyway.

If you're using a fat-loss weight training method like my
Lose Fat Like You're On Crack
Then it might be best to skip it.

Also, the effect of L-Arginine doesn't = other modified arginines. Di-Arginine Malate, Arginine Ethyl Ester, or AAKG might produce vastly different hormonal responses under the same conditions, and would be interesting to see.

 

[bioman]

Agreed. The newer forms of arg with their increased oral bioavailability and differing half lifes in the blood stream might just have different effects on GH.

All in all, I think of arg as a cosmetic agent, but it has some positive effects on mental and physical energy, and immune system boosting that make it worthwhile for me.

 

[Wordz_Worf]

Where did you read that?

ALRI has some research quoted in the write-up for N'Gorge as to why arginine is bad to take when taking creatine.

I read it while looking into some Alri products.

How true it is,I do not know.On one hand,Alri has alot of good products and I'm sure they have good reason to state this,on the other hand,there is so many products with both Creatine and Arginine in them.

Maybe someone with more knowledge on the matter can chime in.

 

[workin2005]

I read it while looking into some Alri products.

How true it is,I do not know.On one hand,Alri has alot of good products and I'm sure they have good reason to state this,on the other hand,there is so many products with both Creatine and Arginine in them.

Maybe someone with more knowledge on the matter can chime in.

Bump...

I'd be very interested to see if there is any data pointing to Agrinine blunting the uptake of Creatine.

Workin

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

The study ALRI is citing to back up this claim is invalid and not applicable to human skeletal muscle.

Here it is if anyone wants to read it: 1: J Biol Chem. 2002 Oct 4;277(40):37503-11. Epub 2002 Jul 26.

The study was conducted on isolated mitochondria creatine transport from rat liver, heart and kidney cells.

It was NOT looking at cellular uptake from extracellular fluid in human skeletal muscle, which is an entirely different thing.

If creatine uptake into the cells were truly inhibited by arginine, we'd all be in trouble. The body and brain need creatine to function normally, and eating any foods with arginine in them would block this.

This study shows what happens to patients that can't uptake endogenous creatine:

1: Mol Cell Biochem. 2004 Jan-Feb;256-257(1-2):407-24.

Mutations in the crt gene, found in several patients, lead to severe retardation of speech and mental development, accompanied by the absence of Cr in the brain.

If anyone from ALRI can find applicable research to show this, I'll gladly retract my statements.

 

[blah12345]

fine, bro. just dont use it before a workout.

Why not, this allows for better blood flow to the muscle during AND after. More bloodflow means better endurance, better recovery between sets and a better 'pump' which gives me more lifting confidence.

 

[FYI777]

1: Arch Physiol Biochem. 1995 May;103(2):160-4. Links
Glutamate-arginine salts and hormonal responses to exercise.Eto B, Le Moel G, Porquet D, Peres G.
Laboratoire de Physiologie et Medecine du Sport, CHU Pitie-Salpetriere, Paris, France.

Hormonal changes during exercise is of growing interest because of their role in adaptation, and performance. The production of amino acids (AA) due to the degradation of muscle protein increases during exercise and some AA may be utilized for energy expenditure or as hormonal secretagogues. Thus, one can propose a strategy to reduce muscle protein breakdown and regulate hormones involved in energy metabolism by dietary AA supplementation. We assessed the effects of glutamate-arginine salt (AGs) ingestion on exercise-induced hormonal alterations in highly trained cyclists (age 18-22 yrs). Using an indwelling catheter, we collected multiple blood samples at rest, during warm up, during and after an intense exercise session. Plasma growth hormone (hGH), insulin and cortisol were measured by radioimmunoassay. As reported in previous studies, we observed a marked increase in plasma hGH and cortisol levels during and after exercise in the placebo (Pl) condition as well as a slight decrease in insulin concentration. In addition, we found that the ingestion of AGs had significant effects on some dynamic hormonal changes. AGs had no effect on resting plasma levels of hGH, insulin or cortisol. However, the marked elevation in cortisol and hGH during and after exercise in the placebo condition, was greatly diminished when subjects ingested AGs. Our results show that AGs can modify exercise-induced hormonal changes and raise the possibility that it may be used to alter energy metabolism during endurance exercise.

PMID: 9338087 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Arginine pyroglutamate + L-Lysine was used in one study tho I couldn't find the original study. Think the ratio was 1:1.

 

[same_old]

Why not, this allows for better blood flow to the muscle during AND after. More bloodflow means better endurance, better recovery between sets and a better 'pump' which gives me more lifting confidence.

did you not read the study posted? feel free to believe supplement company marketing departments and gauge results on "pumps" - i'll stick with placebo-controlled clinicals done by professionals.

FYI777 - thanks bro. rarely do we get 2 nearly identical studies published by different groups that say the exact same thing.