<_< >_> <_<Originally Posted by Grunt76
Originally Posted by Ziricote
The only supplement that caused me that kind of issues was (is) creatine. But it's not too bad, not a weapon of mass disgusting or anything like that.
Really?Originally Posted by DeerDeer
You mean people don't realize when their heart begins beating slow and irregular and their blood pressure in the 80/30 ranges? I think they do. You feel weak, dizzy, feeble, unenergetic, there is something OBVIOUSLY WRONG when that happens. Maybe you don't feel hyperkalemia in a hospital bed, but for an athlete it is extremely different.
The lowest possible dose that has been recorded as enough to be lethal to a human was 14 grams given all at once. This was in a small, weak person totally unaccustomed to potassium. One dose of 14 grams. That is about one heaping tablespoon of potassium chloride. About 25 size 0 capsules filled. And we're talking about an extreme sensitivity here.
So I don't think any 200lb+ athlete in good health is going to hurt himself by adding a couple grams. Really.
Lethal hyperkalemia can be completely asymptomatic. HYPOtension as you mention is almost never a symptom. Palpitations are nonspecific and athletes almost always expereince them and are usually completely benign. To think that one will always be symptomatic with hyperkalemia is false, and to think not feeling the hyperkalemia means one is ok is also completely false. I have witnessed theses not only in the hospital but outside in healthy and competitive athletes as a physician. Th
It does not simply take several grams given at once to cause the lethality. Chronic supplementation can lead to an even more insidious presentation of hyperkalemia and lethal outcomes may be just as common.
And independed of adding a few grams, it is the molar equivalents that are of interest. The range for normal potassium is 3.5-5.0. Theoretically 10 meQ will bump the potassium 0.1. Now - do we know how many meQ are in these KCl supps? Do you know how many meQ of Kcl ar ein those grams he is taking? Did oyu sit out and do the calculation?
It is usually only provided in grams. So something that can be completely benign in low doses can be potentially lethal in the athletic as well as hospital bed setting.
Either way, one needs to be completely wary of potassium supplementation. It is easy to induce hyperkalemia and its implications are lethal. it is not to be belittled by any means, I don't care how healthy an indivudal thinks he or she is.
It is foolish to supplement blindly. Healthy individuals on a good diet RARELY need supplementation with KCl. Frankly it is a waste of money.
THink about it, tiny doses of KCl are given IV in lethal injection....
Originally Posted by Grunt76
You mean in that scary-looking 30cc syringe? Yes I bet they are doing that just to make the patient feel better.Originally Posted by DeerDeer
Back to your real problem...Originally Posted by Quil
Its the camphibolic. This exact same thing happen to my best friend when he tried it. Stop and it will clear up in 3 days, or it did for him atleast. I got a free bottle of camph out of it.
Originally Posted by Grunt76
You turned me on to the Potassium Chloride for blood pressure. It works. "No Salt", people. As far as that dead rodent living in your ass, get some digestive enzymes. You'll also be packing in more food because of them. More food=more calories=:bb:
Lethal dose: 100 mEq K = 7.45g KCl As an IV injection.Originally Posted by DeerDeer
So I think someone adding 1-2 g per day will be allright, given that it is so extremely easily excreted among healthy humans.
Here is some hard science on the evil of potassium.
Potassium excretion in healthy Japanese women was increased by a dietary intervention utilizing home-parcel delivery of Okinawan vegetables.
* Tuekpe MK,
* Todoriki H,
* Sasaki S,
* Zheng KC,
* Ariizumi M.
Department of Environmental and Preventive Medicine, Faculty of Medicine, University of the Ryukyus, Nishihara-cho, Okinawa, Japan.
Potassium, which is abundant in vegetables, is inversely related to blood pressure. Although the situation has changed somewhat in recent years, the Okinawan diet has generally included a large amount of vegetables, and until recently Okinawans had the lowest rates of mortality due to stroke and coronary heart disease in Japan. Based on the hypothesis that these low mortality rates are partly attributable to increased potassium intake resulting from the high vegetable consumption, this study examined whether increasing the consumption of typical yellow-green Okinawan vegetables increases potassium intake. The purpose of this investigation was to determine whether increased consumption of these vegetables should be one of the dietary modifications recommended in public health promotion programs for Okinawans. The study employed 56 healthy, normotensive, free-living Japanese women aged 18-38 years living in Okinawa. They were randomized to a dietary intervention group (n=27) or a control group (n=29). Members of the dietary intervention group received an average weight of 371.4 g/day of a combination of the following vegetables twice weekly through an express home parcel deliver service for a period of 14 days: Goya (Momordica charantia), green papaya (Carica papaya), Handama (Gynura bicolor), Karashina (Brassica juncea), Njana (Crepidiastrum lanceolatium), Fuchiba (Artemisia vulgaris) and Fudanso (Beta vulgaris); and they consumed an average of 144.9 g/day, resulting in a 20.5% increase in their urinary potassium excretion over the baseline (p=0.045). The members of the control group were asked to avoid these vegetables, and the change in potassium excretion in this group was not significant (p=0.595). Urinary sodium and magnesium excretions, systolic and diastolic blood pressures, folic acid, triglycerides and serum high density lipoprotein cholesterol, low density lipoprotein cholesterol and total cholesterols changed non-significantly in both groups. Also, post-intervention urinary potassium excretion correlated positively with vegetable consumption in both the dietary intervention (p<0.0001) and control (p=0.008) groups and with Okinawan vegetable intake in the dietary intervention group (p=0.0004).
PMID: 16940700 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Potassium chloride supplementation diminishes platelet reactivity in humans.
* Kimura M,
* Lu X,
* Skurnick J,
* Awad G,
* Bogden J,
* Kemp F,
* Aviv A.
Hypertension Research Center, Cardiovascular Research Institute, University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey, Newark 07103, USA.
The prevalence of occlusive stroke is inversely correlated with potassium intake. We explored the hypothesis that a high potassium intake attenuates platelet reactivity, as expressed in ADP-evoked platelet aggregation. We studied healthy men (n=31) and women (n=42), blacks (n=33) and whites (n=40). In this cohort, we supplemented the habitual intake of 17 men and 21 women with 60 mmol KCl/70 kg body weight per day for 3 days and maintained 14 men and 21 women on their habitual intake. We then compared the change in ADP concentration causing 50% of the maximal initial rate (EC50) of platelet aggregation in the potassium-supplemented versus control groups. Potassium supplementation attenuated platelet reactivity, expressed by an increase in EC50 of platelet aggregation (P=0.0005), which was primarily attributable to an increase in EC50 in whites (P=0.0004). Urinary potassium excretion was significantly lower in blacks than in whites under basal conditions and after potassium supplementation. We conclude that potassium supplementation diminishes platelet reactivity, a phenomenon that provides a link between platelet biology and occlusive stroke.
PMID: 15505115 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]Effects of potassium citrate supplementation on bone metabolism.
* Marangella M,
* Di Stefano M,
* Casalis S,
* Berutti S,
* D'Amelio P,
* Isaia GC.
Nefrologia Dialisi e Centro Calcolosi Renale, Torino, Italy.
Western diets rich in animal protein result in long-term acid loading that, despite corresponding increases in net renal acid excretion, may induce a chronic state of acidemia. This may have deleterious effects on both the kidney and bone, by increasing the risk of calcium stone in the former and leading to chemical dissolution of mineral alkaline salts in the latter. Whereas supplementation with alkaline citrate has been shown to reduce stone recurrences, its effect on bone turnover has received less attention. The aim of the present study was to evaluate whether potassium citrate favorably affects bone turnover markers in postmenopausal females with low bone density. Thirty women, aged 58 +/- 8.1 years, were enrolled and studied on basal conditions and after a 3-month course of potassium citrate supplementation (0.08-0.1 g/kg b.w. daily). Twenty-two women concluded the study while 8 withdrew. Twenty-four age-matched healthy women were taken as control cases. All were evaluated for electrolyte and acid-base balance-related parameters, bone turnover, markers and renal function. A significant decrease in net acid excretion was observed upon citrate supplementation, and this was paralleled by a significant decrease of urinary deoxypyridinolines, hydroxyproline-to-creatinine ratios, and, to a lesser extent, serum osteocalcin. Percent variations of urine citrate were inversely related to those of deoxypyridinolines and hydroxyproline. No change in these chemistries occurred in the control group. Our results suggest that treatment with an alkaline salt, such as potassium citrate, can reduce bone resorption thereby contrasting the potential adverse effects caused by chronic acidemia of protein-rich diets.
PMID: 15255069 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Those 100meQ are given in a bolus. We normally replete 10mEq IV each over 1 hour to prevent some of the burning associated with IV dosing.Originally Posted by Grunt76
I actually took the time and logged into my old med school's E-library account and pulled all three articles.
The first study offers no information regarding the quantity of potassium ingested - onyl rough estimates. During the discussion they attribute some of the positive finding to the substituion of potassium in the diet for one lower in sodium. So the argument is made whether it is the increased postassium or the decreased sodium intake that lead to the decrease in blood pressure - or was it the addition of these vegetables to the diet. it's from a crappy journal either way (Hypertension research : official journal of the Japanese Society of Hypertension).
The role of potassium in occlusive stroke was evaluated but deemed as only a small part of the bigger picture. This study by in the journal Hypertension by the American Heart Association has been cited many times in orther articles simply because it found one distant though linkable association. Most remarkable is since it has been shown that it is not the increase in potassium intake that is positive but rather the decrease in sodium in take, the subsequent decrease in hypertension, prevention of hypercoaguable states that lead to the decrease in prevalence on occulsive stroke (notably in white populations). Platelet aggregation plays 1/3 of the role. Search "Virchow's triad".
The next study in a relatively crappy journal (Calcified tissue international) in 1979 deals with potassium citrate. It is mainly used to acidify the urine and prevent stones - most consider it a mild diuretic. It's an almost completely other animal with properties that cannot be directly compared to KCl by any means. (C6H5K3O7 + H2O vs KCl).
THe bottom line, KCl supplementation is completely unnecessary in a healthy, balanced diet as MOST athletes, bodybuilders subject themselves too.
It is entirely a waste of money to purposely purchase a supplement made of KCl, we already get it in so many ways.
However, if it means that you are decreasing your sodium intake and replacing it with potassium, there may be some positive benefits, mostly because of the decrease in sodium intake, not because of the increase in potassium intake.
Ah, this is convenient. The research that I pull off Pubmed is crappy, but yours isn't. Nice.
Not saying you are totally wrong, but there is much more to it than the simple stuff you put out. The RATIO of Na/K in the body is an all-important osmotic regulator, which DIRECTLY affects blood volume and thus, blood pressure.
I'm not knocking you by any means - alot of discretion is needed when reviewing these articles and not all studies are treaed as gospel, man.
PubMed simply lists studies and abstract. There are tons of journals that published that are niche and not peer reviewed bythough leaders in the field. For example an article published in The New England Journal of Medicine is far more respected and credible than an article published in Molecular Medicine .
I am not specifically saying that all PubMed studies are great because they are not. There is as much garbage as there is very useful work - which is why it is really helpful to have the access to pull the e-journals off the web (though the ones published in the 80's and earlier sometimes require librarians to do the copying and emailing for you - thankfully!)
The NA and K are two of the most important ions in our blood - particularly when discussing intravascular volume and in cardiac conduction. Some argue that it is not so much the ratio but rather the sheer concentration in the serum.
K 3.5 - 5.2 mEq/L
Na 135-147 mEq/L
If you are within these ranges you are totally safe - ratio becomes irrelevant. What is important in terms of ratio is the Na-K pumps which for every 3 Na pumped out, two K come in. Intravascular volume is affected by water, secondarily the ions.
Originally Posted by Grunt76
Ah, yes, the good ole ranges. You state "totally safe" but some people are in those ranges and have high blood pressure or other problems such as oedema and yet if you take them to the extreme or even outside of such a range such as 130Na and 5.5 K, suddenly the problems subside.Originally Posted by DeerDeer
Medical "science" is biased towards the "average, normal" individual, whereas there are very few people that are that theoretical average normal. A bit like the 1.9 children per family. That is the average. Yet, find me one family that has 1.9 child. Yes this is simplistic, but it is the way things are. Bioindividuality is so profound that ranges do much much much more harm than good.
You put people on medication for being out of the ranges, or you put people on medication for something else when they are IN the range, whereas if you adjusted them to their particular comfort level, they might be - OMFG - out of the range and yet much healthier.
It's tough wearing the shackles of a M.D. isn't it?
looking at your stack, I think you are over doing it on the fatty acids. Melting point has TTA, which in the reviews I've read, is known to cause bloating and gas. MP also contains flax oil. Then, you're stacking sesaglow, which is sesamin oil. That's a lot of fat to add to your diet. I'm curious to see how much weight you lose on this stack.
I have never taken restore, but I know what you are stacking with it is counterproductive. Sesamin and flax contain lignans. Lignan have been identified as a phytoestrogen. The estrogenic properties of these biochemicals have been shown to be due to their structural similarities to the hormone estradiol....that info is straight off wikpedia.com. With this information, I could never recommend flax or sesamin oil to any male. If you want to take a oil pill, take fish oil or X-factor, both are essential fatty acids.
The problem could be your whey, but is really called lactose intolerance. I'm lactose intolerant. I switched to lactose free milk and whey isolates. It helps me from getting bloated and gasy. Labrada whey isolate is the best I've tasted, mixes awesome as well. Obviously, cheese would be another thing for you to avoid, but some cheeses are worse than others. Wikpedia also has a good link on lactose intolerance.
I would have posted url's, but I'm new here and need 20 posts to do such a thing.
Also, I have taken bulk forskolin, no flatulance problem, but it gave me headaches.
Hope that helps! TQ
TQ, that is an interesting take on the sesamin/flax...I'm curious to see what other's opinions on that are. Everything I've read says that stacking MP and Sesamin is recommended, as it has a potentially synergistic effect. I could see cutting back on the rest of my EFA intake in my diet, but not sure about cutting out flax/sesamin altogether. There are literally thousands of males that take either flax or sesamin or both with positive effects.Originally Posted by TommyQ29
I'm taking Restore because of the potential for testosterone production decrease on a long cutting cycle. I have been cutting for about 8 weeks already, and have lost 13 pounds. I have felt suppressed libido and overall aggression and drive over the last several weeks, so I thought I'd give Restore a try as I finish out my cut over the next month.
Again, I'll be curious to hear more opinions on this.
I have battled gyno since I was a teenager, so I'm well researched on things that mimic estrogen in your body. I learned about flax originally from Chuck Diesel, I researched it on Wikpedia (awesome sight for research!). I'm sure flax or sesamin will give people results, especially if they don't have enough healthy fats in their diets. The better choice of Omega-3's (for men) is Fish Oil. Now Super EPA is my recommendation.
If testosterone production is your concern, an anti-estrogen will help some. I've had bad experiences with over the counter stuff, all of it made me sick except the topicals. I recommend liquid nolvadex.
Otherwise, if testosterone production is your worry, I suggest adding eggs with yolk to your diet and cutting calories somewhere else. Testosterone (and all sex hormones) are made from cholesterol. Dieters cut typically cut fat so much, their cholesterol drops too low, that's why the drop in hormone levels. You'll find cholesterol in egg yolk, plus egg has the highest absorbability of all protiens - can't beat it. I also recommend a LH boosting supplement. I stack Now Tribulus with Now American Ginseng, it works. Both of those supplements boost LH from things called saponins. Saponins are also found in olives and asparagus.fyi
I've never tried it, but Designer Supplements Activate might be another thing for you to consider.
Plasma elkectrolyte balance, the osmotic gap are CRITICAL to our wellbeing. The delicate balance between serum and intracellular electrolytes are critical for cardiac conduction, cellular regulatory processes and basically - LIFE.
These ranges are not somoe arbitrary numbers but PERMISSIBLE numbers for these necessary reactions ot occur. Anything above or below these require IMMEDIATE medical attention.
Let's just recap how critical these are:
Hyperkalemia - cardiac concerns are th most dominating and frequent symptoms - several ekg changes (peaked T waves, flattened pwide qrs complex), neuromuscular numbness, weakness, flaccid paralysis and death.
Hypokalemia - Neurological mostly, skeletal muscle weakness, can even be tot he extent of paralysis 9which is bad when it paralyzes your diaphragm), constipation, can get an ileus/bowel obstruction, cardiac arrhythmiahyperglycemia
Hypernatremia - the symnptoms correlate with the extent of hyperosmolarity of course, the symptoms are primarily neurological, restlessness, irritability, disorientation, delirium, COMAlack of urine, brain hemorrhage, hyperventilation.
Hyponatremia - lethargy, disorientation, hiccups, nausea, vomiting, COMA, depressed reflexesseizures, cranila nerve paralysis
NOW given these possibilities as signs and symptoms, would you ever consider disrupting this critical balance of these ions? I dont' care if someone is asymptomatic, humans can fall off very QUICKLY. It is a delicate balance, don't mess with the K or Na bad things happen, I have seen them happen, I have seen acute changes leading to cardia arrest that could have been entirely avoided had a pcp been more aggressive in monitoring and repleting/removing these ions.
I am far form wearing shackles my friend, I consider myself adherent to what is standard practice and known and ESTABLISHED for WELL over 100 years to be the norm. These are not basic test levels or cortisol levels. Plasma ion research was some of the first research that was ever done, longer than any trial has ever existed, I think it is safe to say that believing these ranges is more than backed by science, consider it your holy book.
The comparison to 1.9 children is apples to oranges. If someone has a potassium of 6.0 and is completely asymptomatic, think of the stress that they are putting on their heart....they are an arrest waiting to happen. When cases of sudden death occur, think about how often a cardiac arrhythmia is associated with it...think about how often it happens to completely healthy athletes.
Na and K are two of the ions I look to keep everyone within range, strictly, independent if someone feels "good". it is standard of care, not just osme arbitrary ranges I pulled out of my butt, a la 17HD. Be nice to your cardiac action potentials and keep the depolarization/repolarization moving. Your SA node will thank you and your AV node will return the favor to your Purkinje's.
Originally Posted by Grunt76
So basically if someone has high blood pressure / hypertension and regularly test out at K = 3.5 and Na=147 then there is obviously something wrong with THEM and not their Na/K. Right. How can you be so sure?
What I'm saying is that most M.D.'s will call that "within range" and move on to what to prescript the patient instead of learning that said patient lives off mostly cold cuts and white bread and that some dietary adjustment will permit to move (still within range) towards a safer ratio.
But, no, they are within range.
Hypertension is soooo multifactorial that looking at the Na and K alone would offer nothing. Someone with those values for Na and K - I would not touch them. Typical recommendations would be to suggest lifestyle modifications - that start with revaluation of ones diet (recommend low sodium diet 2gm Na of course) , activity and level of stress (as well as examination of comorbidities - diabetes, cardiovascular risk factors - lipid profile, family history, basically the JNC7's latest guidelines, watch them for 6 - 10 weeks and see if the interventions made a change then possibly start them on a medication if changes were unable to be made.
The Na and K values are worrisome of they are out range completely. Values like those you give are never addressed, but rather followed. Please see the link below for the guidlines on hypertension.
JNC7 - The Seventh Report of the Joint National Committee on Prevention, Detection, Evaluation, and Treatment of High Blood Pressure (JNC 7)
Originally Posted by Grunt76
As interesting as this electrolyte discussion is, its waaaay off topic.