Berberine FAQ

[Cool]

With NP about to start a bulk/capped bulk line, I think some FAQ's for some of these compounds would be in order. I think covering even the stupid questions is important, it keeps clutter off the boards. People ask the dumbest questions on 'the other' boards. Can I snort berberine? Can I take berberine if I drink Coke Zero?:think: I remember when I asked stupid questions too so, it's all good. I would like to know recommended doses, minimum and maximum. Is cycling necessary? Diet parameters and so forth. I know there was some discussion about was berberine YG? I think USP did a good job of explaining that it was similar to one of the ingrediants in YG/AP. After comparing the two, I think they are quite similar. Both taste like asparin, same color, texture and smell, or lack there of. I started the berb like 2-3 days ago so I can't realy compare effectiveness. Mowry is reporting the full muscle effect similar to YG. I am still excited about AP, but for all those people whining :whiner:: about AP taking a little while longer to get released, get some berberine and your binky and hold tight.

 

[Mulletsoldier]

Because of certain situations, I cannot, and will not, comment on AP/Berberine beyond this:

Berb. and AP work through different pathways, and have in fact, different purposes. This is not to say one is better than the other, merely, they do not do the same thing.

 

[Enigma76]

ScienceDirect - Biochimica et Biophysica Acta (BBA) - General Subjects : Berberine-stimulated glucose uptake in L6 myotubes involves both AMPK and p38 MAPK

Berberine is a plant alkaloid used in traditional Chinese medicine and has been reported to have antihyperglycemic activity in NIDDM patients. However, the molecular basis for this action is yet to be elucidated. Here we investigate the effects and signaling pathways of berberine on L6 rat skeletal muscles. Our study demonstrates that berberine stimulates glucose uptake in a time- and dose-dependent manner. Intriguingly, berberine-stimulated glucose uptake does not vary as insulin concentration increases, and could not be blocked by the PI 3-kinase inhibitor wortmannin. Berberine only weakly stimulates the phosphorylation of Akt/PKB, a key molecule in the insulin signaling pathway, but strongly promotes the phosphorylation of AMPK and p38 MAPK. The effects of berberine are not a result of pro-oxidant action, but a consequence of an increased cellular AMP:ATP ratio. Moreover, berberine-stimulated glucose uptake is inhibited by the AMPK inhibitor Compound C and the p38 MAPK inhibitor SB202190. Inhibition of AMPK reduces p38 MAPK phosphorylation, suggesting that AMPK lies upstream of p38 MAPK. These results suggest that berberine circumvents insulin signaling pathways and stimulates glucose uptake through the AMP-AMPK-p38 MAPK pathway, which may account for the antihyperglycemic effects of this drug.



Remember the problems associated with AMPK activation presented prior; AMPK activation will lead to a decrease in protein synthesis, which was speculated to be circumvented with leucine supplementation.

Might be smart for everyone to take alittle leucine with their dose of berberine.

Now, AP is supposed to work by helping insulin work better, whatever this means (its vague). As can be seen by the above study (it was published in november of this year, so it is recent), berberine exerts most of its glucose-clearing effects through non-insulin dependent pathways, which would seem to differ from modulating insulin.

 

[Cool]

Word. This isn't an AP vs Berberine thread, not saying that's what anyone was trying to make it. I think that horse has been beaten. Stupid horse.

 

[Cool]

Might be smart for everyone to take alittle leucine with their dose of berberine.

Or couldn't you just have a high protien diet? Also, can ala products be taken with berb?

 

[Enigma76]

About the AP/berb thing, I was just posting to show proof that berb works differently than how USP says AP works.

High protein diet is questionable. The whole AMPK activation reducing protein synthesis thing is transient; for the relatively little time that AMPK is activated initially, protein synthesis is stopped as AMPK signals an energy deficit in muscle; protein synthesis occurs to repair muscle, but is I believe a secondary action to replenishing ATP stores.

A high protein diet is rich in all the amino acids, and suffers from delayed absorption. I suggested leucine because of its quick absorption through the gastrointestinal tract and quick effect on protein synthesis. Seeing as we are worried about a relatively small time in relation to a 24 hour period, leucine spiking (or BCAAs) could serve to counteract the delay in protein synthesis.

Then again, I'm not sure if forcing protein synthesis concurrent with AMPK activation is possible, or even if it would mitigate the effects of the berberine.

I have seen research showing that chronic AMPK activation ends up with above normal levels of muscle glycogen in the long run without any problems in muscle size; leucine might only be an unecessary precaution.


Regarding ALA:

Entrez PubMed

The racemic mixture of the antioxidant alpha-lipoic acid (ALA) enhances insulin-stimulated glucose metabolism in insulin-resistant humans and animals. We determined the individual effects of the pure R-(+) and S-(-) enantiomers of ALA on glucose metabolism in skeletal muscle of an animal model of insulin resistance, hyperinsulinemia, and dyslipidemia: the obese Zucker (fa/fa) rat. Obese rats were treated intraperitoneally acutely (100 mg/kg body wt for 1 h) or chronically [10 days with 30 mg/kg of R-(+)-ALA or 50 mg/kg of S-(-)-ALA]. Glucose transport [2-deoxyglucose (2-DG) uptake], glycogen synthesis, and glucose oxidation were determined in the epitrochlearis muscles in the absence or presence of insulin (13.3 nM). Acutely, R-(+)-ALA increased insulin-mediated 2-DG-uptake by 64% (P < 0.05), whereas S-(-)-ALA had no significant effect. Although chronic R-(+)-ALA treatment significantly reduced plasma insulin (17%) and free fatty acids (FFA; 35%) relative to vehicle-treated obese animals, S-(-)-ALA treatment further increased insulin (15%) and had no effect on FFA. Insulin-stimulated 2-DG uptake was increased by 65% by chronic R-(+)-ALA treatment, whereas S-(-)-ALA administration resulted in only a 29% improvement. Chronic R-(+)-ALA treatment elicited a 26% increase in insulin-stimulated glycogen synthesis and a 33% enhancement of insulin-stimulated glucose oxidation. No significant increase in these parameters was observed after S-(-)-ALA treatment. Glucose transporter (GLUT-4) protein was unchanged after chronic R-(+)-ALA treatment but was reduced to 81 +/- 6% of obese control with S-(-)-ALA treatment. Therefore, chronic parenteral treatment with the antioxidant ALA enhances insulin-stimulated glucose transport and non-oxidative and oxidative glucose metabolism in insulin-resistant rat skeletal muscle, with the R-(+) enantiomer being much more effective than the S-(-) enantiomer.



I post this because of the italicized and bolded comments; ALA exerts its effects through insulin-mediated mechanisms, which differs from berberine's effects. So in theory yes, they could both be used. However, ALA definately exerts its effects in adipocyte as well as skeletal muscle; berberine seems to be somewhat independent of insulin.

 

[Cool]

Great answer, reps! OK, I can do BCAA's with berb, precautionary. When I said ala I meant to cover them all: K-r-ala, r-ala, Na-r-ala. So I'm guessing it's OK to use them together. I know USP advised not to use it with YG. Thanks again,

 

[jcam222]

Because of certain situations, I cannot, and will not, comment on AP/Berberine beyond this:

Berb. and AP work through different pathways, and have in fact, different purposes. This is not to say one is better than the other, merely, they do not do the same thing.

Isnt this berberine the hcl salt extracted from phellodendron? Subsequently isnt phellodendrun YG and then tweaked and patented to all it Insulintm or something like that?? sure seems all close to the family to me lol.

 

[Enigma76]

Also another study I thought worth mentioning.
Entrez PubMed

Berberine has been shown to have antidiabetic properties, although its mode of action is not known. Here, we have investigated the metabolic effects of berberine in two animal models of insulin resistance and in insulin-responsive cell lines. Berberine reduced body weight and caused a significant improvement in glucose tolerance without altering food intake in db/db mice. Similarly, berberine reduced body weight and plasma triglycerides and improved insulin action in high-fat-fed Wistar rats. Berberine downregulated the expression of genes involved in lipogenesis and upregulated those involved in energy expenditure in adipose tissue and muscle. Berberine treatment resulted in increased AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK) activity in 3T3-L1 adipocytes and L6 myotubes, increased GLUT4 translocation in L6 cells in a phosphatidylinositol 3' kinase-independent manner, and reduced lipid accumulation in 3T3-L1 adipocytes. These findings suggest that berberine displays beneficial effects in the treatment of diabetes and obesity at least in part via stimulation of AMPK activity.


Thus berberine, in part via AMPK stimulation, exerts a hypoglycemic effect. Results include GLUT4 translocation in muscle cells and reduced lipid accumulation in fat cells. Thus, fat oxidation seems to be favored over lipogenesis.

 

[rmag2447]

Isnt this berberine the hcl salt extracted from phellodendron? Subsequently isnt phellodendrun YG and then tweaked and patented to all it Insulintm or something like that?? sure seems all close to the family to me lol.

Trust me dude, this isnt someplace you wanna go. I know your intentions are well but on other boards this subject has in part exposed USP labs to alot of undeserved scrutiny, so they try and shy away from topics such as this.

 

[dsade]

This thread is welcome to discuss Berberine. For respect of all involved questions, inquiries, PMs, etc comparing AP/YG to berberine will be ignored.

 

[Cool]

This thread is welcome to discuss Berberine. For respect of all involved questions, inquiries, PMs, etc comparing AP/YG to berberine will be ignored.

I second that. Dsade, what about dosing, diet, stacking, etc.? I was hoping for answers to these FAQ's.

 

[WhatsaRoid?]

Both taste like asparin, same color, texture and smell, or lack there of. I started the berb like 2-3 days ago so I can't realy compare effectiveness. Mowry is reporting the full muscle effect similar to YG. I am still excited about AP, but for all those people whining :whiner:: about AP taking a little while longer to get released, get some berberine and your binky and hold tight.

great post, you jus helped me make up my mind to buy some.

 

[Enigma76]

Any possibility of getting this capped? Say, 300mg/cap doses?

I am interested in implementing this because the research supporting the product is evident and positive.

Berberine also has a nice potential antiproliferative effect on cancer cells; I say potential because I have yet to see in vivo studies on humans obviously, but here is a great in vivo animal model on human brain cancer cells: Entrez PubMed

Berberine in addition has anti-inflammatory activity: Entrez PubMed

 

[dsade]

I second that. Dsade, what about dosing, diet, stacking, etc.? I was hoping for answers to these FAQ's.

So far the only stacking I have been monitoring closely is with DCP.

As indicated, leucine/BCAA intake should be increased to positively influence protein synthesis.

I am leaning towards 100-200mg per dose, 3 times per day.

Let me look into capping for this, for sure.

 

[WhatsaRoid?]

So far the only stacking I have been monitoring closely is with DCP.

As indicated, leucine/BCAA intake should be increased to positively influence protein synthesis.

I am leaning towards 100-200mg per dose, 3 times per day.

Let me look into capping for this, for sure.

you the man...I'm putting some in my cart now.

 

[Enigma76]

Let me look into capping for this, for sure.

Thank you for the capping consideration.

Berberine exerts most of its effects through non-insulin-mediated action; combination of berberine with na-rala (for the insulin mediated action) and leucine might be an interesting little pill.

In addition, the anti-inflammatory study I posted showed berberine exerting its effects not through reduction in the COX-2 enzyme but rather reductions in the COX-2 proteins. I'm not sure what this means, but I know that NSAIDs, which inhibit protein synthesis (this is well documented) lower the amount of COX-2 enzyme. Berberine might not have the same problem as NSAIDS due to a reduction in the COX-2 target inflammatory protein, but not a reduction in the enzyme?

I dont know enough about the COX-2 enzyme pathways; I know there are multiple pathways, and it is thought that COX-2 activation increases prostaglandins which then exert positive effects on muscle repair.

 

[skull]

I think Ive read berberine has a 6-8 hr half life also good for high blood presure---pub med has a study says up to 2 grams per day with no toxicity:study:New Uses of Berberine: A Valuable Alkaloid from Herbs for "Damp ...As relayed by Ni in his review of the literature, clinical experience with berberine has shown that doses of 2 grams per day produced no side effects. ...www.itmonline.org/arts/berberine

 

[Enigma76]

I think Ive read berberine has a 6-8 hr half life also good for high blood presure---pub med has a study says up to 1 gram per day with no toxicity:study:

Linky?

 

[Enigma76]

So far we have berberine:

Anti-inflammatory
Anti-cancer
Anti-hypertension

Non-insulin mediated glucose disposal
GLUT4 translocation in skeletal muscle
Inhibits lipogenesis
Increases muscle glycogen
Reduces circulating levels of insulin

 

[mmowry]

I think Ive read berberine has a 6-8 hr half life also good for high blood presure---pub med has a study says up to 1 gram per day with no toxicity:study:

Well as of tomorrow Ill be in deep dutch then.Im not stupid I just like to test the limits 500mgx3 baby.:woohoo:

 

[Jim Sadler]

I've used 1g doses and didn't notice any adverse effect. I used it post-workout with a lot of high glycemic carbs, so I don't know if a dose that large taken without carbs might cause you to crash.

 

[mmowry]

Ive went hypo on 300mg with no carbs but Im just going to this for a refference.

 

[Cool]

So it may work synergistically (spelling) with stuff like vanadyl, cinnamon and na-r-ala? Also, does hi or low GI make a big difference pre post in anyones ascertation?

 

[mmowry]

Ive used both after dosing and they both kept the hypo away.Now which is better well Snickers sure beats oats:thumbsup:

 

[Enigma76]

So it may work synergistically (spelling) with stuff like vanadyl, cinnamon and na-r-ala? Also, does hi or low GI make a big difference pre post in anyones ascertation?

Dunno the high/low GI thing. I would probably bet that high GI, like everytime else in a proper diet, has its time and place for certain individuals. Low GI would probably be better regarding fatloss.

Synergy is possible I would think, due to the non-insulin mediated effects of berberine. However, dont forget all the insulin-mediated compounds affect fat just as they do skeletal muscle; increased glucose uptake. In the long run, I bet there would be some definate synergy, but again with cutting I probably wouldnt want to risk it.

I guess it would depend on your goals. Cutting, berberine would be most effective with low GI carbs and without the vanadyl/ala/cinnamon (although I'm not sure how cinnamon works).

Lean bulking, you could use both the high GI carbs and the other glucose disposal agents.





I am really quite interesting in running the DCP/berberine stack, once berberine comes in caps. Maybe those really small caps, so that we could fine-tune each's dosing?

 

[rampage jackson]

It's worth mentioning that this stuff stained my cap em quick a faint yellow after 1 pass in the dishwasher...

 

[rampage jackson]

Does anyone think, hypothetically, that there could be some sort of small anabolic rebound after you stop taking the berberine...kinda like DNP in alot of ways lol

 

[dsade]

I am really quite interesting in running the DCP/berberine stack, once berberine comes in caps. Maybe those really small caps, so that we could fine-tune each's dosing?

I should know on the berberine caps sometime this week.

 

[skull]

well ,after a little more than a week of a gram per day --split in 2 doses before meals and after workouts --not much to report might posibly be some recomp[to early to say]but no fat loss on a 40/40/20 diet--and I gained 2 pounds--Im also using cissus and EC

 

[dsade]

gaining 2 pounds in a week, with some recomp is not much to report?

 

[skull]

gaining 2 pounds in a week, with some recomp is not much to report?

well if its muscle that great if its fat not so much--[like I said to early to tell]from the reports I read my weight supposed to stay the same while BF DROPS

 

[dsade]

Increased GLUT4 translocation in muscle tissue would be highly anabolic, when taken with the right amount of carbs.

 

[skull]

Titre du document / Document title
Berberine as a natural source inhibitor for mild steel in 1 M H[2]SO[4]
Auteur(s) / Author(s)
YAN LI (1) ; PENG ZHAO (1 2) ; QIANG LIANG (3) ; BAORONG HOU (1) ;
Affiliation(s) du ou des auteurs / Author(s) Affiliation(s)
(1) Institute of Oceanology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Qingdao 266071, CHINE
(2) Graduated School, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing 100039, CHINE
(3) Chemistry Department, Normal College of Qingdao University, Qingdao 266071, CHINE

Résumé / Abstract
Berberine was abstracted from coptis chinensis and its inhibition efficiency on corrosion of mild steel in 1 M H[2]SO[4] was investigated through weight loss experiment, electrochemical techniques and scanning electronic microscope (SEM) with energy disperse spectrometer (EDS). The weight loss results showed that berberine is an excellent corrosion inhibitor for mild steel immersed in 1 MH[2]SO[4]. Potentiodynamic curves suggested that berberine suppressed both cathodic and anodic processes for its concentrations higher than 1.0 x 10[-4] M and mainly cathodic reaction was suppressed for lower concentrations. The Nyquist diagrams of impedance for mild steel in 1 M H[2]SO[4] containing berberine with different concentrations showed one capacitive loop, and the polarization resistance increased with the inhibitor concentration rising. A good fit to Flory-Huggins isotherm was obtained between surface coverage degree and inhibitor concentration. The surface morphology and EDS analysis for mild steel specimens in sulfuric acid in the absence and presence of the inhibitor also proved the results obtained by the weight loss and electrochemical experiments. The correlation of inhibition effect and molecular structure of berberine was then discussed by quantum chemistry study.
Revue / Journal Title
I was looking for some reports on weight loss and found this are we sure this stuffs safe?well I guess if doesnt work out, I could rub it on the bumper of my car to keep the rust off :toofunny:

 

[dsade]

HAHA...good find.

 

[scott72]

well ,after a little more than a week of a gram per day --split in 2 doses before meals and after workouts --not much to report might posibly be some recomp[to early to say]but no fat loss on a 40/40/20 diet--and I gained 2 pounds--Im also using cissus and EC

Are you in a calorie deficit? Whats your diet like?

 

[scott72]

gaining 2 pounds in a week, with some recomp is not much to report?

Not sure how much recomp you can accomplish in a week..Me is wondering what his diet is like..

 

[scott72]

Dsade is the Berberine gone? Was gonna order 50 grams this morning and now that shows up red and says out.

 

[Enigma76]

Berberine isnt going to cut the fat and retain the muscle quickly without proper caloric deficit...

Over time, what you should notice eating at maintanence is a leaning out effect while maintaining muscle mass and probably increasing it.

This is because berberine long-term will reduce the amount of circulating insulin levels (increased glut4 in skeletal muscle means less insulin is needed throughout the body to bring blood sugar back to homeostasis) and therefore should reduce fat accumulation/stores.

Then again, you could bulk with berberine as well.

If you can attribute your 2lb gain to fat, then you must know your diet is off. If your diet is not off, then the 2lbs could be fluctuations in water weight or increased glycogen retention. But I cannot see how you dont attribute a 2lb gain to muscle if you know your diet is in check.



Berberine could be used effectively as a lean bulking product (just ensure you have plenty of protein to combat the temporary decrease in protein synthesis. On a bulk maybe something like BCAAs right after a workout, then 30min later berb and 10 min after that normal protein shake w/carbs), a cutting product (with a caloric deficit and clean diet) or a recomp product. The options are pretty much endless, with diet and timing (of berb and protein/carbs) being the only factor here going into results.

 

[Enigma76]

Berberine isnt going to cut the fat and retain the muscle quickly without proper caloric deficit...

Over time, what you should notice eating at maintanence is a leaning out effect while maintaining muscle mass and probably increasing it.

This is because berberine long-term will reduce the amount of circulating insulin levels (increased glut4 in skeletal muscle means less insulin is needed throughout the body to bring blood sugar back to homeostasis) and therefore should reduce fat accumulation/stores.

Then again, you could bulk with berberine as well.

If you can attribute your 2lb gain to fat, then you must know your diet is off. If your diet is not off, then the 2lbs could be fluctuations in water weight or increased glycogen retention. But I cannot see how you dont attribute a 2lb gain to muscle if you know your diet is in check.



Berberine could be used effectively as a lean bulking product (just ensure you have plenty of protein to combat the temporary decrease in protein synthesis. On a bulk maybe something like BCAAs right after a workout, then 30min later berb and 10 min after that normal protein shake w/carbs), a cutting product (with a caloric deficit and clean diet) or a recomp product. The options are pretty much endless, with diet and timing (of berb and protein/carbs) being the only factor here going into results.

 

[Cool]

So what about stacking with ala's, vanadyl, cinnamon and etc.? I've read conflicting opinions

 

[dsade]

Dsade is the Berberine gone? Was gonna order 50 grams this morning and now that shows up red and says out.

The first shipment of berberine went insanely fast. We should have a resupply by next week.

 

[skull]

Are you in a calorie deficit? Whats your diet like?

I would tend to think my diet is pretty much in check 40%pro40%carb20%fats--tough being xmass and all--I may have some thyroid issues and some insulin insensitivity thats why I was interested in berberine-- but the study I BASED MY EXPECTATIONS ON---- Entrez PubMed

Berberine has been shown to have antidiabetic properties, although its mode of action is not known. Here, we have investigated the metabolic effects of berberine in two animal models of insulin resistance and in insulin-responsive cell lines. Berberine reduced body weight and caused a significant improvement in glucose tolerance without altering food intake in db/db mice. Similarly, berberine reduced body weight and plasma triglycerides and improved insulin action in high-fat-fed Wistar rats. Berberine downregulated the expression of genes involved in lipogenesis and upregulated those involved in energy expenditure in adipose tissue and muscle. Berberine treatment resulted in increased AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK) activity in 3T3-L1 adipocytes and L6 myotubes, increased GLUT4 translocation in L6 cells in a phosphatidylinositol 3' kinase-independent manner, and reduced lipid accumulation in 3T3-L1 adipocytes. These findings suggest that berberine displays beneficial effects in the treatment of diabetes and obesity at least in part via stimulation of AMPK activity.

 

[skull]

Not sure how much recomp you can accomplish in a week..Me is wondering what his diet is like..

I totaly agree, way to early to tell --and berberine has way to many good studies on it to think otherwise---maybe we dont have the correct dosage down yet?

 

[skull]

The first shipment of berberine went insanely fast. We should have a resupply by next week.

It would be great if you could get pre capped --everythings yellow---yellow fingers- kitchen counter-mix cups-waterbottle top--piss yellow --crap yellow too :icon_lol:

 

[dsade]

It would be great if you could get pre capped --everythings yellow---yellow fingers- kitchen counter-mix cups-waterbottle top--piss yellow --crap yellow too :icon_lol:

I am putting the order in as soon as the material arrives.

 

[warnerve]

I am putting the order in as soon as the material arrives.

I realize there are a lot of factors involved, but rough estimate...how long does this mean?

 

[dsade]

3 weeks

 

[Grassroots082]

Bump for some more feedback on Berb HCL.

 

[yeahright]

So, now that the berberine experiement has a few months behind it, any thoughts?