A steroid alternative that works ? this might be it

[broken7]

first off sorry about the lame title I couldn't think of anything better
I am interested in the possibility of increasing ones natural testosterone production, I've read that some users were able to get very good results with ATD & 3-OHAT so
I figure since ATD and 3-OHAT can have such a good response why not throw some more into the mix. Maybe this is a stupid idea but who knows might work wonders.

What if you took all these test boosters at one time.
Trib
Viraloid
3,17-dioxo-etiochol-1,4,6-triene (A.K.A. ATD)
6,17-dioxo-etiocholene-3-ol (A.K.A. 3-OHAT)
17-HD
ZMA
Avena Sativa (aka wild oat)
Tongkat Ali (aka Long Jack aka Eurycoma Longifolia)
Chrysin (5,7-Chrysin (Dihydroxy-flavone) )
Nettle
Muira puama
Diindolylmethane (DIM)
3,6,17-androstenetrione (aka 6-oxo)
+ whatever else I forgot or am unaware of
(I know this probably isn't the best stack but you get the idea, taking a bunch of different ones rather then just a couple)

I'd love to see someone who can get test levels tested try this for 60 days and see the results
What other substances could be used to increase ones testosterone production (Nolva, Clomid, liquidex, something else?)
What are the possible ways to increase natural test prod (estrogen-negative-feed-back-loop, androgen-negative-feed-back-loop...what else?)
May someone who knows can make a list of all the methods to do this and which substances act in which way, that would help in making a better stack of products so not to go overboard in any one area, like blocking to much estrogen.

 

[CHAPS]

I wouldn't bother doing all that i'd do something like:

PowerFull
DNA
Rebound Reloaded
ZMA
Restore
Cissus RX

 

[daniel35]

You know, you probably could get your testosterone to teenage levels with all this, but I really wonder if the damage(liver, kidneys) would be worse ingesting 20+ grams of various herbal extracts(that we really don't have any safety studies on) compared with 500-1000 mgs of testosterone a week. Just a thought.

 

[bioman]

Yeah, that's a lot of stuff. Also consider that ATD will mess up your cholesterol values which is pretty much the same effect steroids have..so really, is it all that much better/safer?

There is ALWAYS an endocrinological price to be paid for altering the status quo hormonal millieu. Whether you mega dose a bunch of "safe" herbals or inject testosterone..the body will respond in kind to try to bring things back to baseline. It is essentially a butterfly effect and I seriously doubt we will ever reap only benefits without any consequences.

 

[thesinner]

What's the point in using multiple AI's?

 

[prld2gr8ns]

I'm sure some effect estrogen control in diffirent ways which may be a good idea when incorporating a pct protocol. But multiple-multiple AI's just for a natty boost in T is just a little excesive, and pretty much counter-productive health wise. Less is definitely more in this instance.

 

[thesinner]

I'm sure some effect estrogen control in diffirent ways which may be a good idea when incorporating a post cycle therapy protocol. But multiple-multiple AI's just for a natty boost in T is just a little excesive, and pretty much counter-productive health wise. Less is definitely more in this instance.

As an engineer, I'd tell you it'd be more beneficial to just take the most cost effective AI, and scratch the rest.

People need to realize there's more to designing a stack than just saying, "Hey, this is a good one, and so's this one, let's throw them in the mix."

 

[prld2gr8ns]

As an engineer, I'd tell you it'd be more beneficial to just take the most cost effective AI, and scratch the rest.

People need to realize there's more to designing a stack than just saying, "Hey, this is a good one, and so's this one, let's throw them in the mix."

Couldn't agree with you more. Stick with one or the other, not both or all of them.

 

[Aeternitatis]

I could tell you to just try X-Factor... but maybe that's too easy. But it's the only supplement that people have claimed to out-perform the currently popular oral steroids (superdrol, phera, etc).

I could also tell you one of my favorite stacks:

X-Factor
ActivaTe
ICE

with the possible addition of BodyOctane, depending on goals/activity level.

 

[broken7]

I'm thinking of taking
NxCare Nitro T3 and SAN Attitude together for a couple months
t3 has all the herbs and attitude has the atd and 3-OHAT
I'm also getting 17-hd and viraloid but I think I should run them separately from the t3/attitude. This be ok ?

 

[BOHICA]

Best steroid alternative out there... a good diet 8 hours of sleep and a ton of food.

 

[thesinner]

Best steroid alternative out there... a good diet 8 hours of sleep and a ton of food.

Shouldn't you be doing that if you're on steroids as well?

 

[luke1984]

Just because taking a certain supplement is not unhealthy doesn't mean taking hands full of them is not unhealthy.

Just like Daniel35 said, it'll probably cause more health problems than 500mg/wk of testosterone would.

 

[thesinner]

Just because taking a certain supplement is not unhealthy doesn't mean taking hands full of them is not unhealthy.

Just like Daniel35 said, it'll probably cause more health problems than 500mg/wk of testosterone would.

There's a big difference between a synergistic stack and a garbage pail formula.

 

[Iron Warrior]

I would just use steroids instead of all those products combined at once. At least with steroids you know what you're getting yourself into and you know they'll work better then natty test boosters. People have been using roids for decades and these natty test boosting compounds haven't been out for even 1 decade. JMO. Ditto on what BOHICA said, the diet and training make the bodybuilder not supplements.

 

[yeahright]

On points not already made: Chrysin has such poor bioavailability that it has no in-vivo effect. DIM will just convert your estrogen from stronger to weaker forms (not necessarily a bad thing but it won't increase your T).

 

[maddenizor]

My doctor told me not to use anything that has Arachidonic Acid in it.

 

[pistonpump]

My doctor told me not to use anything that has Arachidonic Acid in it.

why is that? or are you joking?:think:

 

[maddenizor]

Unfortunately I am serious, he says it will lead to a "host" of problems, he didnt go into detail, but he is a physician specializing in sports medicine, Ive been seeing him since I was an infant, I trust him.

 

[maddenizor]

No one jump down my throat bc of the post about Arachidonic Acid, I am not trying to offend anyone who uses it. I am just trying to share with everyone information that was given to me. (the reason we are here)

 

[BOHICA]

No one jump down my throat bc of the post about Arachidonic Acid, I am not trying to offend anyone who uses it. I am just trying to share with everyone information that was given to me. (the reason we are here)

you haven't really shared anything yet though lol. Tell us what problems he said would arise from it and if they are in general or just because of something else you have.

 

[maddenizor]

No, I have no pre existing medical conditions. I never used it before. He just told me stay away from it. I didnt bother to ask why.

 

[maddenizor]

I know, not very useful. I figured i'd post it anyway.

 

[maddenizor]

By the way I want to make sexy time with your avatar.

 

[Iron Warrior]

MADDENIZOR: Is your doctor also against egg yolks by any chance ? If he says he isn't then he's contradicting himself because the yolks are high in Arachadonic Acid.

 

[djl]

MADDENIZOR: Is your doctor also against egg yolks by any chance ? If he says he isn't then he's contradicting himself because the yolks are high in Arachadonic Acid.

Perhaps he's simply against supplemental AA, since people are already consuming AA in their diets.

 

[maddenizor]

I was just posting what I was told.

 

[luke1984]

Unfortunately I am serious, he says it will lead to a "host" of problems, he didnt go into detail, but he is a physician specializing in sports medicine, Ive been seeing him since I was an infant, I trust him.

So if he tells you little yellow gnomes live in your fridge, you believe him?

 

[maddenizor]

Grow up.

 

[Iron Warrior]

So if he tells you little yellow gnomes live in your fridge, you believe him?

That's pretty condenscending luke. The man is just asking for advice so help him or don't make useless posts.

 

[Aeternitatis]

AA increases the generalized inflammatory response, which basically increases the risk of everything that kills us (except trauma).

Yes, in sedentary people particularly in instances of hyperinsulinemia. It is interesting to note that the people who due suffer from AA induced systemic inflammation (or inflammatory diseases) tend not to have a very significant intake of AA. They tend to have a disproportinately large intake of plant-based n-6 oils to n-3 which is what causes AA to act as a pro-inflammatory agent. As we all know, AA is an n-6 oil but it is not present in plants. The question then is: if AA intake causes inflammation, why do these people with very low dietary intake of AA have problems with inflammation? The simple answer is that the story goes well beyond AA. It is not simply a matter of AA = inflammation.

But dietary consumption of AA by the actively training and healthily eating individual is generally safe and does not usually induce systemic inflammation. To the contrary, AA supplementation in active non-hyperinsulinemic individuals may actually redice systemic inflammation (reduction in IL-6).

 

[thesinner]

So if he tells you little yellow gnomes live in your fridge, you believe him?

Not to believe him is a bit much, I would just assume he's colorblind: the gnomes are clearly a shade of green.

 

[Aeternitatis]

Of note, the first quote was already mentioned as affecting the gatekeeper enzyme in an untoward fashion.

I didn't the second point. Now THAT is very interesting! Do you have any references handy I can look at? Have they isolated AA supplemention in them?

Yes, MN paid for in-vitro and in-vivo studies with X-Factor a while back. The reduction in IL-6 came as a bit of a surprise to some of us. Here is the link to the studies on our site: MOLECULAR NUTRITION - X-FACTOR

Actually, our man Phosphate bond wasn't surprised by the IL-6 reduction. He explained it to me once... if only I could remember the specifics. I'm gonna get him in on this discussion.

Baically, the take away message is that everything changes when we're dealing with athletes. Things that might be bad for a sedentary person end up being useful to the athlete (insulin, for example). Yes, that's an ultra-dumbed down version, but that's the bigger picture in a nutshell. :rant: This is why I do not recommend X-factor for the inexperienced. It's not some candy-flavored drink mix that a kiddy can chug before doing endless biceps curls with dreams of hyooogness. It's a serious metabolic modulator and should be used with respect and care.

 

[Aeternitatis]

BTW, for those of you who are wondering where Phosphate bond disappeared to, he's hard at work with some new products as well as developing a patent with Bill... something never before seen. Let me tell you, 2007 will be a great year for MN and our customers.

 

[BOHICA]

Of course a study done by the company trying to produce a product are going to come back favorable. Tylenol does that all the time to dispell thoughts that herbs can help pain-relief and inflammation as much as tylenol can...

 

[Aeternitatis]

We didn't do the study nor did we tamper with the results. The methods are all outlined in detail. Read the study for yourself and make a conclusion. The raw data is there and it speaks for itself.

And at least we're contributing to furthering the actual science of supplementation. These studies aren't cheap and we really didn't have to have them done. Few people pay any attention to the hardcore science. But we funded the studies and will fund more in the future simply because it is the right thing to do. It adds legitimacy to our industry.

Besides, if we were simply trying to market the study, why would would bother with an in-vitro? I'll tell you: it enhances our understanding of how AA works with reagrds to muscle growth. The in-vitro study is basically unmarketable, but it is still useful information.

 

[BOHICA]

We didn't do the study nor did we tamper with the results. The methods are all outlined in detail. Read the study for yourself and make a conclusion. The raw data is there and it speaks for itself.

And at least we're contributing to furthering the actual science of supplementation. These studies aren't cheap and we really didn't have to have them done. Few people pay any attention to the hardcore science. But we funded the studies and will fund more in the future simply because it is the right thing to do. It adds legitimacy to our industry.

Besides, if we were simply trying to market the study, why would would bother with an in-vitro? I'll tell you: it enhances our understanding of how AA works with reagrds to muscle growth. The in-vitro study is basically unmarketable, but it is still useful information.

I'm not bashing the study, but just think a third party should conduct studies. I mean Muscle Tech produces studies all the time and we know how great their supplements are :toofunny:

 

[Phosphate bond]

.

I get my daily quota of AA (LOL) through red meat consumption.

Red meat gives you a lot of saturated fat relative to the small amount of arachidonic acid it has.

 

[Phosphate bond]

Of note, the first quote was already mentioned as affecting the gatekeeper enzyme in an untoward fashion.

I didn't the second point. Now THAT is very interesting! Do you have any references handy I can look at? Have they isolated AA supplemention in them?

We have our study showing a p.067 (close to significant. Study needs to expanded from 30 to 40 people tp achieve more "power" in the results) reduction of IL-6 in the X factor group while the corn oil (another omega 6) showed no IL-6 reduction.

Furtrhermore there is a 1993 New England Journal of Medicine study correlating maximum insulin sensitivity in normal humans to arachidonic acid concentratrations in their muscles.

This makes sense when you consider AA's ability to stimulate and downregulate cAMP. For example low cAMP makes platelets "sticky" right? But a low cAmp state also maximizes the effect of glycogen sythetetase. (cAMP phosphorylates glycogen synthetase...thus inactibates it)

Now why does insulin matter here? Insulin and more accurately "hyperinsulinemia" stimulate IL-6 release from adipocytes.

P.S. I think X factor works well with fish oil so there is no need to make this a fish oil vs arachidonic acid arguement.

 

[thesinner]

Red meat gives you a lot of saturated fat relative to the small amount of arachidonic acid it has.

However, I don't recall the RDI for AA as being a very large amount.

 

[Phosphate bond]

However, I don't recall the RDI for AA as being a very large amount.

There is no RDI for AA, but according to page 225 in Udo Erasmus's book "The fats that kill the fats that kill" Domestic cattle/pigs have like 12 times less Arachidonic acid and much more saturated fat than their wild counterparts.

So it could be that man evolved to have higher arachidonic acid but less saturated fat. This would not be environmentally negative for primitive man because their level of activity (muscle use) was higher .Thus it stands their ability to selectivity benefit from AA effects in muscle would have been greater.

 

[Phosphate bond]

AA increases the generalized inflammatory response, which basically increases the risk of everything that kills us (except trauma).

I'm leaving for southern California tommorow but let me just say that IL-6 is correlated with total mortality in the elderly.

So anytime you can reduce insulin and therefore the "generalized inflammatory response" you can theorectically reduce these risk factors.

 

[pistonpump]

IL-6 = insulin????? you guys are too smart! hah

 

[luke1984]

Not to believe him is a bit much, I would just assume he's colorblind: the gnomes are clearly a shade of green.

:rofl:

 

[Phosphate bond]

Following is some interesting info on IL-6, sent to me by Velikimajmun, Mod at M&M:


IL-6 is a biomarker for inflammation. That however doesn't speak to what it actually does for a physiologic stand point. Recent evidence suggests that is in fact firmly an anti-inflammatory cytokine.

"IL-6 has long been regarded as a proinflammatory cytokine induced by LPS along with TNF- and IL-1. IL-6 is often used as a marker for systemic activation of proinflammatory cytokines.38 Like many other cytokines, IL-6 has both proinflammatory and anti-inflammatory properties. Although IL-6 is a potent inducer of the acute-phase protein response, it has anti-inflammatory properties as well.39 Recent evidence generated from IL-6 knockout mice has demonstrated that IL-6, like other members of the gp130 receptor ligand family, acts predominantly as an anti-inflammatory cytokine. After binding to its specific receptor, IL-6 complexes with the ubiquitous gp130 signal transducing unit. IL-6 belongs to a family of gp130 receptor ligands that includes IL-11, leukemia inhibitory factor, ciliary neurotrophic factor, oncostatin M, and cardiotrophin-1. Inasmuch as these peptide molecules use a common cellular receptor, they share many of the physiologic features attributable to IL-6. IL-6 down-regulates the synthesis of IL-1 and TNF.40 41 IL-6 attenuates the synthesis of the proinflammatory cytokines while having little effect on the synthesis of anti-inflammatory cytokines such as IL-10 and transforming growth factor-ß (TGF-ß). IL-6 induces the synthesis of glucocorticoids42 and promotes the synthesis of IL-1ra and soluble TNF receptor release in human volunteers.43 At the same time, IL-6 inhibits the production of proinflammatory cytokines such as GM-CSF, IFN-, and MIP-2.38 The net result of these immunologic effects place IL-6 among the anti-inflammatory cytokine group."

Opal SM, DePalo VA. Anti-inflammatory cytokines. Chest. 2000 Apr;117(4):1162-72

Its not that IL-6 is a bad molecule. Its just that persistent elevation of IL-6 is a bad sign . Hypoxia and hyperinsulinemia are too stimulators of its release among other things.

Actually IL-6 is protective, but high fasting levels of it are clearly as sign conditions in the body are less than ideal.

P.S. IL-6 also stimulates C- reactive protein in the liver. High levels of CRP are also a bad sign. Although this doesn't mean that CRP is itself bad stuff.

 

[Grunt76]

I'm not bashing the study, but just think a third party should conduct studies. I mean Muscle Tech produces studies all the time and we know how great their supplements are :toofunny:

They paid for a study to be done, in order to know stuff. The study was done by scientists looking for an answer.

You would have studies be funded by people with no interest in the knowledge they provide?

 

[thesinner]

They paid for a study to be done, in order to know stuff. The study was done by scientists looking for an answer.

You would have studies be funded by people with no interest in the knowledge they provide?

I think he's just a little wary that since the company funded the research, the results might be a little biased. All in all, I think the point that he's trying to make is that despite how useful this study may be as data for the folks at Molecular Nutrition, an independent study would hold a lot more ground against critics.

 

[Aeternitatis]

IL-6 = insulin????? you guys are too smart! hah

wtf are you talking about?

 

[Aeternitatis]

Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves here.

High serum levels of insulin are toxic to EVERYONE. Even athletes will suffer the ravages of diabetes--and insulin supplementation amounts to self-induced DMII.

Oh, I know. That's wy I mentioned that I was drastically dumbing down the explanation. But it is generally true that insulin is less "harmful" and more "useful" to a hard training athlete. I guess what I'm saying is that if you put an athlete and a sedentary side by side with the same diet, the athlete is much less likely to suffer from insulin related disease states.

 

[pistonpump]

wtf are you talking about?

i was asking what the hell IL-6 was? and the fact that you guys are some educated s.o.b's