American Ginseng enhances glucose disposal, Better than R-lipoic acid? Comments plz!

  1. Registered User
    windwords7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    2,318
    Answers
    0

    American Ginseng enhances glucose disposal, Better than R-lipoic acid? Comments plz!


    <SPAN class=postcolor>davin8r posted this at Avants forums. Please give me your thoughts on this. Here is the link for the full thread http://www.mindandmuscle.net/avantfo...5c31ab37e9bf0e</SPAN>

    ============================== ==================

    American Ginseng enhances glucose disposal, Better than R-lipoic acid?

    <SPAN class=postcolor>"I just posted this over at Elite Fitness, and thought I'd cut/paste it here as well in case anyone finds it helpful:

    American Ginseng has demonstrated potent glucose-lowering properties in two published clinical studies, one published in the (relatively prestigious) American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.

    1. Vuksan V et al. Arch Intern Med 2000;160:1009-1013.
    2. Vuksan V et al. Am J Clin Nutr 2001;753-758.

    It does exactly what people are trying to do with R-lipoic acid, but at a significant cost savings. In the studies I mentioned, both non-diabetic and diabetic subjects took American Ginseng at various time points before or at the same time as a glucose challenge.

    In the non-diabetic subjects (relevant to us), AG administered 40 minutes prior to the glucose challenge lowered the area under the glucose curve by 18% in one study and 15% in the other.

    I wanted to point out these studies because of the high cost associated with lipoic acid, especially R-LA, and because of the fact that lipoic acid has not yet been clinically demonstrated to produce acute glucose-lowering effects in healthy humans when administered before or during a meal, although I suspect that this will be the case at high enough doses (and anecdotal evidence on this forum and elsewhere supports this).

    BTW, American Ginseng also contains powerful lipid- and water-soluble antioxidants:

    Kitts DD et al. Antioxidant properties of a North American ginseng extract. Mol Cell Biochem 2000;203:1-10.

    Hope this helps!! </SPAN>

    <SPAN class=postcolor>Supnut said this in response:</SPAN>

    <SPAN class=postcolor>In this graph we clearly see that when taken with the glucose the herb has no effect and only when taken at least 40min before the test dose the herb have an effect. No greater effect seams to occur when taken in greater advance than 40 min however even at two hours the herb still remains effective.

    The results show that the herb is effective at 1 gram when taken at least 40 min before a meal. This would suggest an practicle application to bodybuilding in which the herb would be supplemented before leaving for the gym or upon beggining one's workout with the asumption that the next meal would immediatly follow the workout.

    The actuall mechanisms and active principles of the herb are unclear although it apears to have a wide array of effects in the body. I would specualte based on the the herbs ability to effect glucose uptake even when used two hours before the fact that its effects are not drrected through insulin, This would be further supported by the herb's lack of effect when taken with the meal. This asumption if correct would illiminate the concern that chronic dosing could lead to reduced glucose trasnport although this has certainly not been ruled out.

    Cost wise the treatment would be very feasible. Penn Herb Co. sells the herb in 475mg x60 bottles for target=_blank>$12.50 which is very affordable for a month's supply. They also carry the product in a bulk powder for target=_blank>$110 which is about half the cost but still a considerable investment. A pound would be enough for about a year and a half.
    <!--Signature--></SPAN>

  2. Registered User
    Sheesh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Posts
    527
    Answers
    0


    I think i'm gonna add some ginseng to my supplement cabinet. Thanks for the info.
  3. Registered User
    TOYFORDOLET's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Age
    29
    Posts
    386
    Answers
    0


    bump
    •   
       

  4. Registered User
    TOYFORDOLET's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Age
    29
    Posts
    386
    Answers
    0


    Effect of ginseng saponins on exercise performance in non-trained rats.

    Department of Biological Sciences, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada. Larry.Wang@uAlberta.ca

    Short-term (4 days), but not acute, treatment with ginseng saponin (GS, 10 and 20 mg/kg/day) significantly prolonged the aerobic endurance of non-trained rats exercising at approximately 70% VO2max. Compared to the saline controls, GS treatment significantly increased the plasma free fatty acid (FFA) level and maintained plasma glucose level during exercise. Both the liver and skeletal muscle glycogen levels of the GS-treated rats were slightly higher than those of saline-treated controls after exhaustive exercise. These results indicate that GS enhances exercise endurance by altering fuel homeostasis during prolonged exercise, presumably by increasing FFA utilization in preference over glucose for cellular energy demands. To further search for the active components responsible for the ergogenic effect of GS, it was found that a GS preparation devoid of Rg1 and Rb1 failed, whereas injection of either Rg1 or Rb1 enhanced aerobic exercise performance. These results indicate that both Rg1 and Rb1 are key ingredients in GS-mediated enhancement in aerobic endurance.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9525104


    Not 100% relevant to glucose disposal, but I thought the glycogen sparing effects were interesting.
  5. Registered User
    strategicmove's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    10,763
    Answers
    0


    Quite some serious bump!
    Product Educator | USPowders
    Statements made by this online persona are the sole property of the owner, and do not necessarily reflect USPowders’ opinion as a whole.
  6. 1HP
    1HP is offline
    Registered User
    1HP's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Age
    41
    Posts
    1,049
    Answers
    0


    lol, a 7 year bump

    Anyway, I would still take ala for its anti-oxidant capacity. I find Red Korean Ginseng to be king. You need the 6-year old roots. Really nice energy and feel good boost. Gives an edge pre-workout aswell, subtle but there nonetheless. Very expensive though but whats the price for feeling great?
  7. Registered User
    Alpha R's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    39
    Answers
    0


    American Ginseng for the win!
  8. Banned
    crazyfool405's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  198 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    7,431
    Answers
    0


    how bout a flow chart to turn u guys on...


    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...e=figure&id=F2
  9. 1HP
    1HP is offline
    Registered User
    1HP's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Age
    41
    Posts
    1,049
    Answers
    0


    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    how bout a flow chart to turn u guys on...


    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...e=figure&id=F2
    horny, thanks for that!
  10. UKStrength
    Guest
    UKStrength's Avatar


    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    how bout a flow chart to turn u guys on...


    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...e=figure&id=F2
    Nice one mate, that makes things a lot easier to understand!
  11. Banned
    justreading's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  226 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Age
    31
    Posts
    1,693
    Answers
    0


    Hasn't glut-4 pretty much been marginalized as a bodybuilding pathway due to the dual upregulation of intake within muscle and fat thus providing minimal benefit in body composition and really only benefiting long term insulin sensitivity that could be down regulated from over eating due to bodybuilding? Isn't it more of a long term preventative measure rather than an acute recomp pathway?
  12. Registered User
    matthias7's Avatar
    Stats
    6'3"  215 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    1,627
    Answers
    0


    Quote Originally Posted by 1HP View Post
    lol, a 7 year bump

    Anyway, I would still take ala for its anti-oxidant capacity. I find Red Korean Ginseng to be king. You need the 6-year old roots. Really nice energy and feel good boost. Gives an edge pre-workout aswell, subtle but there nonetheless. Very expensive though but whats the price for feeling great?
    What dosage are you using?

    I've tried small amounts of raw red preserved in date syrup, about 100g a time, but never found it to have much benefit. It didn't seem cost effective.

    I've noted the price of 6 year old red - it'll need to be good at that price but alot depends on how much per day. At 1g per day (around $80 for 150g) then its extremely good value - if it works and cheaper than many supps (3 months supply). At 5g per day it starts to become top end range of supps (1 months supply). At 10g per day its no go.
  13. Banned
    crazyfool405's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  198 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    7,431
    Answers
    0


    They used 200-600 for 50g ogtt
  14. 1HP
    1HP is offline
    Registered User
    1HP's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Age
    41
    Posts
    1,049
    Answers
    0


    Quote Originally Posted by matthias7 View Post
    What dosage are you using?

    I've tried small amounts of raw red preserved in date syrup, about 100g a time, but never found it to have much benefit. It didn't seem cost effective.

    I've noted the price of 6 year old red - it'll need to be good at that price but alot depends on how much per day. At 1g per day (around $80 for 150g) then its extremely good value - if it works and cheaper than many supps (3 months supply). At 5g per day it starts to become top end range of supps (1 months supply). At 10g per day its no go.
    I used ~1.5 gram doses. Its pretty expensive.. I would not call it good value
  15. Banned
    crazyfool405's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  198 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    7,431
    Answers
    0


    Quote Originally Posted by justreading View Post
    Hasn't glut-4 pretty much been marginalized as a bodybuilding pathway due to the dual upregulation of intake within muscle and fat thus providing minimal benefit in body composition and really only benefiting long term insulin sensitivity that could be down regulated from over eating due to bodybuilding? Isn't it more of a long term preventative measure rather than an acute recomp pathway?
    alot of them use the PPARy as means of increasing insulin sensitivity as well as blocking adipogenesis.

    its definetly something to have, i would take it pre bed to keep NPY levels down in the morning so its easier to do fasting cardio and not be starving your ass off
  16. Registered User
    matthias7's Avatar
    Stats
    6'3"  215 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    1,627
    Answers
    0


    Quote Originally Posted by 1HP View Post
    I used ~1.5 gram doses. Its pretty expensive.. I would not call it good value
    At a $1 a day its sure cheaper than beer. Depends how much of a punch it packs. Beer packs a punch at about $15 - tolerance depending
  17. Banned
    crazyfool405's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  198 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    7,431
    Answers
    0


    buy it in bulk!
  18. Registered User
    TOYFORDOLET's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Age
    29
    Posts
    386
    Answers
    0


    I read a couple studies showing ginseng should be taken at least 40 min. prior to meals to be effective at glucose disposal.
  19. Banned
    crazyfool405's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  198 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    7,431
    Answers
    0


    Yes it takes about an hour to kick in

    I take 550mg 1 hour before my meal and 550 with my meal
  20. Registered User
    TOYFORDOLET's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Age
    29
    Posts
    386
    Answers
    0


    What strength extract are you using?
  21. Banned
    crazyfool405's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  198 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    7,431
    Answers
    0


    vitamin shoppe brand nothing special i dont remember off hand
  22. Registered User
    TOYFORDOLET's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Age
    29
    Posts
    386
    Answers
    0


    It seems that 5% is common, I found a 25% extract (ginsenosides) and I'm thinking 100-200mg before refeed meals .
  23. Banned
    crazyfool405's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  198 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    7,431
    Answers
    0


    Nah before refeed meals... I have my own special stuff lol

    Check my cut progress log for a few examples
  24. Banned
    justreading's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  226 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Age
    31
    Posts
    1,693
    Answers
    0


    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    alot of them use the PPARy as means of increasing insulin sensitivity as well as blocking adipogenesis.

    its definetly something to have, i would take it pre bed to keep NPY levels down in the morning so its easier to do fasting cardio and not be starving your ass off
    Interesting... I can't do am cardio when cutting or I throw up from hunger.
  25. Registered User
    Outside Backer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Age
    35
    Posts
    2,629
    Answers
    0


    so do I i've always wondered how anyone does anything fasted I get so sick i wanna die
    toes-on-the-nose.blogspot.com Deployed blogging
  26. Banned
    crazyfool405's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  198 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    7,431
    Answers
    0


    You can try the ginseng see how it goes.

    Also if u wake up for a shake in the middle of the night pop a ginseng as well
  27. Banned
    justreading's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  226 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Age
    31
    Posts
    1,693
    Answers
    0


    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    You can try the ginseng see how it goes.

    Also if u wake up for a shake in the middle of the night pop a ginseng as well
    Peanut butter at night might not be ideal but its what i do, forcive habit almost every night unless cutting on low fat. Ginseng doesn't make sense to me but when I go to cut maybe i'll try it.
  28. Banned
    crazyfool405's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  198 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    7,431
    Answers
    0


    Well it works via the ppary pathway which regulates adipogenesis. So even while bulking it'll serve a nice purpose
  29. Banned
    justreading's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  226 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Age
    31
    Posts
    1,693
    Answers
    0


    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    Well it works via the ppary pathway which regulates adipogenesis. So even while bulking it'll serve a nice purpose
    I understand that but never heard it mentioned in appetite control
  30. Banned
    crazyfool405's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  198 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    7,431
    Answers
    0


    Neuro peptide Y is a hormone thats secreted from the hypothalamus the morning which signals hunger for the most part.

    Its elevated in the morning

    heres some more info on it...

    http://www.accessmylibrary.com/artic...d-insulin.html
  31. Registered User
    strategicmove's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    10,763
    Answers
    0


    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    Neuro peptide Y is a hormone thats secreted from the hypothalamus the morning which signals hunger for the most part.

    Its elevated in the morning...
    I remember our Neuro Peptide Y discussion in the Glycobol thread.

    You had sent me a PM on lyase, beta-oxidation, and all that. I deleted it accidentally before responding to it. Could you resend it?
    Product Educator | USPowders
    Statements made by this online persona are the sole property of the owner, and do not necessarily reflect USPowders’ opinion as a whole.
  32. Banned
    crazyfool405's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  198 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    7,431
    Answers
    0


    Yea I figured it out but ill reswend it lol always good to have another pair of eyes take a look
  •   

      
     

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Jack Black- American Idol-better Than Sanjaya !
    By anabolicrhino in forum General Chat
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 04-29-2007, 11:17 AM
  2. Women are better than men at... Pilates!
    By bigbadboss101 in forum Exercise Science
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 03-26-2003, 03:53 PM
  3. Casein better than Whey?
    By Dwight Schrute in forum Weight Loss
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 03-10-2003, 02:51 PM
  4. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 02-08-2003, 05:18 PM
  5. Dione better than Diol?!?!
    By u4ik_rage in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: 01-29-2003, 09:56 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Log in

Log in