Jungle Warfare/ActivaTe stack help

[ktw]

Well, I have a crapload of Activate around and some JW so I thought I would stack the two. I have 2 bottles of Activate and 1 of JW right now so I was wondering how I should dose each. I realize that both have some of the same ingredients, so running each at normal dose at the same time would be just like doubling ActivaTe only slightly different. Should I run Rebound with them? I have a full bottle of rebound left, would it be necessary to stack it like the NHA stack? Or should I just go all out and do JW at normal dosage, ActivaTe at 8 caps a day and RXT at 2?

 

[max silver]

I'd say just try jungle warfare on it's own. All of the reports I've seen on it have been overwhelmingly positive. Save the Activate for later.

 

[ktw]

Ya I could use it on its own but for some reason I have the idea of stacking the two ingrained in my head. I understand that JW has anti estrogen properties to it so would RXT even be necessary? Bump.

 

[uhockey]

No one knows exactly how much AI effect there is to JW since it' a proprietary blend, but I imagine adding ActivaTe at 4 caps daily thoughout the duration of your JW cycle will give added benefit to the stack.

 

[FitnFirm]

I would suggest starting just one of them first for at least 2 weeks, then adding in the 2nd product. This is if you are set on taking both at the same time.

By taking one alone first for at least 2 weeks you will be able to distinguish any side effects to a particular product.

I personally think it will be overkill but you can make your own decisions.

Good luck no matter what you decide to do!

 

[ktw]

Yah, it probably is very overkill, but I believe it is safer than running some kind of illegal anabolic product at this point in my physiological development

 

[yeahright]

I'd second FNF's suggestion of starting with one and then adding the other product. You could try a steady RXT dose through the whole cycle (say 1 cap a day) as some sort of mutant NHA stack.

 

[ktw]

Yah I know the JW has anti estrogen properties but in the past 1 cap of RXT a day really was not too drastic and I do not think it would be too much of a problem. Also note that I am starting to train for strongman so my caloric intake is going to be a lot higher than it is now, I wonder if the JW's nutrient partitioning will have an effect on my body comp.

 

[FitnFirm]

Yah I know the JW has anti estrogen properties but in the past 1 cap of RXT a day really was not too drastic and I do not think it would be too much of a problem. Also note that I am starting to train for strongman so my caloric intake is going to be a lot higher than it is now, I wonder if the JW's nutrient partitioning will have an effect on my body comp.

Of course the JW will have an effect on your overall comp, its a great product while bulking and the nutrients are used effectively. Keep me updated ok!

 

[RunMav]

Could jungle warfare be taken in conjunction with a mega dosed bcaa combo? I've heard bcaas are better when you are trying to cut is that right?

 

[FitnFirm]

Could jungle warfare be taken in conjunction with a mega dosed bcaa combo? I've heard bcaas are better when you are trying to cut is that right?

I use BCAA's every trainng day no matter if I am cutting,bulking, lean bulking. Yes you can use it with JW.

 

[Viperspit]

BCAA's are great in any phase IMO.

 

[RunMav]

Thanks
Getting JW on monday and can't wait to try it out!! Is there anything out there that shouldn't be mixed with JW? such as adenergy ,thyrotabs or anything else?

 

[FitnFirm]

Thanks
Getting JW on monday and can't wait to try it out!! Is there anything out there that shouldn't be mixed with JW? such as adenergy ,thyrotabs or anything else?

As far as the thyrotabs, I had to go read up on it. Just so you know too much thyroid hormones or things that claim to act like thyroid hormones can make you lose muscle is used improperly, esp if your diet it not in check. ALRI's product Thyrogen X has anti-catabolic properties and would be much safer to use with JW.

If you are taking JW for mass gains, or are you cutting ?



Its just that too much thyroid hormones can put you in a catabolic state, we dont want that, this is why Thyrogen X is a safer bet to use with JW.


I would like to see your diet plan and a few pictures of where you are now.

 

[RunMav]

Thanks for the quick responses!
Current stats: 25yr old, 6'0, 165-170lb. Based on most suggestions, I should be more worried about putting on more weight(that's where I'm hoping jungle warfare will help out alot). Current calorie intake around 2500/day. I think I should try and bump that up to about 3000 and see how it goes. Going for low carb throughout the week, with one day of carb loading on saturday or sunday.
I am currently taking thyrotabs but my 30 days supply will end next week. Do you think it would be better to just wait until my thyrotabs are finished before starting JW? Does thyrotabs need a PCT?

I will try and get some pictures on here soon, but I would guess I have no more than 10-12% bf max.

 

[Ziricote]

Definately up your calorie intake to 3000kcal, fankly at your weight carb cycling shouldn't be what you want to do. A good bulking diet is what you need to put mass on.

 

[RunMav]

Can you suggest a good approach? Should I go to higher carbs/lower fat? high protein?

 

[uhockey]

As far as the thyrotabs, I had to go read up on it. Just so you know too much thyroid hormones or things that claim to act like thyroid hormones can make you lose muscle is used improperly, esp if your diet it not in check. ALRI's product Thyrogen X has anti-catabolic properties and would be much safer to use with JW.

If you are taking JW for mass gains, or are you cutting ?



Its just that too much thyroid hormones can put you in a catabolic state, we dont want that, this is why Thyrogen X is a safer bet to use with JW.


I would like to see your diet plan and a few pictures of where you are now.

Absolutely shameless. Seriously. What evidence can you present that indicates Thyrogen X is more efficacious at muscle sparring than the Gaspari product? :rofl:

 

[FitnFirm]

Thanks for the quick responses!
Current stats: 25yr old, 6'0, 165-170lb. Based on most suggestions, I should be more worried about putting on more weight(that's where I'm hoping jungle warfare will help out alot). Current calorie intake around 2500/day. I think I should try and bump that up to about 3000 and see how it goes. Going for low carb throughout the week, with one day of carb loading on saturday or sunday.
I am currently taking thyrotabs but my 30 days supply will end next week. Do you think it would be better to just wait until my thyrotabs are finished before starting JW? Does thyrotabs need a post cycle therapy?

I will try and get some pictures on here soon, but I would guess I have no more than 10-12% bf max.

Yes, you def need more cals to grow. You are a tall guy! I would say something in the range of 3400 cals 40/40/20. I would not low carb on JW at this point, at least while you are trying to gain size. JW has such a great effect on nutrient re-partitioning that it pulls all glycogen into your muscle cells. If you were low carbing you could possbily get alot of headaches from low blood sugar effect. We are recommending that JW be taken with food, and one hour later having a serving of carbs ( 20-40 grams) depending on your size.

You do not need any post cycle therapy for thyrotabs, any levels that have been changed will return to normal within a couple weeks.

JW has this really cool effect about it, while adding mass esp during a bulking cycle after a few weeks you weigh more but look leaner and more defined, it forces the body to use fat to burn for cals and saves the glycogen & Protein to feed the muscle, that is why you see such rapid growth.

I know a couple people who used it while cutting for a competition who did very well, used to spare muscle. But you have to time your carbs around the dosing of JW to avoid any headaches.

I would say wait a week until your thyrotabs are gone and then start the JW. Take the recommended dosage of 3 per day with meals, it can be at the beginning of your meal, during, or right after as long as food will be in your stomach.

In 9 days I will be cutting, and I will continue to take the JW, Ive been on it now for 4 weeks. Ill be able to judge then how it effects others through my experience. Viperspit will also be cutting and using JW & Restore.
.

 

[FitnFirm]

Absolutely shameless. Seriously. What evidence can you present that indicates Thyrogen X is more efficacious at muscle sparring than the Gaspari product? :rofl:

Hi Uhockey All I saw was........"Im sending FnF a Sustain bar cause she is such a good logger"


Ok, here is the research material I have to show you, Gaspari does not claim that their product is anti- catabolic, But ALRI does make that claim, hence I used words from both websites to answer that. I know Author L. Rea does not make false claims and can back up anything he says. So without him bothering right now Ill give you the research articles that he has provided for Thyrogen X. If you dont find what you are looking for, let me know and I will ask him.

Being Hypothyroid myself, I know the importance of not experimenting with the actual prescription meds like many others do. I think its safe to say that when a user abuses any thyroid product that does effect levels of t4 & t3 and does not eat properly, any one can put themself in a catabolic state.

Ok, while you are reading these, send me a sustain bar




1) iodothyroacetic acid has unique potential for therapy of resistance to thyroid hormone. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1995 Jul;80(7):2033-40.

2) Use of triprop in the treatment of hypothyroidism. N Y State J Med. 1963 Aug 1;63:2204-10.

3) Structure-activity relation of thyroid hormone analogues and tissue epidermal growth factor concentrations in neonatal and adult mice. Am J Dis Child. 1984 Mar;138(3):251-3.

4) PRO-ANGIOGENESIS ACTION OF THE THYROID HORMONE ANALOG 3, 5-DIIODOTHYROPROPIONIC ACID (DITPA) IS INITIATED AT THE CELL SURFACE AND IS INTEGRIN-MEDIATED. Endocrinology. 2005 Dec 29;

5) Thyroid hormone analogs for treatment of hypercholesterolemia and heart failure: past, present and future prospects. J Mol Cell Cardiol. 2004 Dec;37(6):1137-46.

6) Role of sulfated tyrosines of thyroglobulin in thyroid hormonosynthesis. Endocrinology. 2005 Nov;146(11):4834-43. Epub 2005 Jul 21.

7) Transforming growth factor-beta promotes inactivation of extracellular thyroid hormones via transcriptional stimulation of type 3 iodothyronine deiodinase. Mol Endocrinol. 2005 Dec;19(12):3126-36. Epub 2005 Jul 21.

8) Effect of freeze dried extract of Olea europaea on the pituitary-thyroid axis in rats. Phytother Res. 2002 May;16(3):286-7.

9) Steroids. 2002 Nov;67(12):953-66. Immune up-regulation and tumor apoptosis by androstene steroids. Loria RM. Department of Microbiology, Immunology and Pathology, Medical College of Virginia, Virginia Commonwealth University, 1101 East Marshal Street, Richmond, VA 23298-0768, USA. [email protected]

10) Immunopharmacol Immunotoxicol. 2005;27(1):15-32. Molecular specificity of 5-androstenediol as a systemic radioprotectant in mice. Whitnall MH, Villa V, Seed TM, Benjack J, Miner V, Lewbart ML, Dowding CA, Jackson WE

11) Rinsho Byori. 1998 Jun;46(6):505-17. Control of the immune response by DHEA and its metabolites. Loria RM, Padgett DA. Department of Microbiology, Virginia Commonwealth University, Medical College of Virginia, Richmond 23298-09678, USA.

12) Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2000;917:860-7. Androstenetriol and androstenediol. Protection against lethal radiation and restoration of immunity after radiation injury. Loria RM, Conrad DH, Huff T, Carter H, Ben-Nathan D.

13) J Endocrinol. 2000 Feb;164(2):161-9. Conversion of dehydroepiandrosterone to downstream steroid hormones in macrophages. Schmidt M, Kreutz M, Loffler G, Scholmerich J, Straub RH. Institute of Biochemistry, Genetics and Microbiology, University of Regensburg, Germany.

14) J Neuroimmunol. 1998 Apr 1;84(1):61-8. Endocrine regulation of murine macrophage function: effects of dehydroepiandrosterone, androstenediol, and androstenetriol. Padgett DA, Loria RM. Department of Oral Biology, College of Dentistry, The Ohio State University, Columbus 43210, USA. [email protected]

15) Psychoneuroendocrinology. 1997;22 Suppl 1:S103-8. Antiglucocorticoid function of androstenetriol. Loria RM. Virginia Commonwealth University, Medical College of Virginia, Richmond 23298-0678, USA. [email protected]

16) Ann N Y Acad Sci. 1992 Apr 15;650:363-6. Mobilization of cutaneous immunity for systemic protection against infections. Loria RM, Padgett DA.
Virginia Commonwealth University, School of Basic Health Sciences, Medical College of Virginia, Richmond 23298.

17) Obes Res. 2005 Jul;13(7):1157-66. Increased cortisol bioavailability, abdominal obesity, and the metabolic syndrome in obese women. Duclos M, Marquez Pereira P, Barat P, Gatta B, Roger P.
18) Laboratoire Neurogenetique et Stress, INSERM U471, Institut Francois Magendie, Universite Bordeaux II, rue C. Saint Saens, 33077 Bordeaux Cedex, France. [email protected].

19) Horm Metab Res. 2005 Apr;37(4):193-7. Obesity and cortisol status. Salehi M, Ferenczi A, Zumoff B. Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Medicine, Beth Israel Medical Center and Albert Einstein College of Medicine, New York, NY 10003, USA.

20) Heart Fail Rev. 2005 Jan;10(1):15-22. Mineralocorticoid receptors: distribution and activation. Funder JW. Prince Henry's Institute of Medical Research, Clayton 3168, Victoria, Australia. [email protected]

21) Blood. 2005 Jun 7; Expression of 11{beta}-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1 permits regulation of glucocorticoid bioavailability by human dendritic cells. Freeman L, Hewison M, Hughes SV, Evans KN, Hardie D, Means TK, Chakraverty R. Department of Hematology, University of Birmingham, Birmingham, United Kingdom.
22) Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 2003 May;58(5):601-11.The effect of growth hormone replacement therapy on adrenal androgen secretion in adult onset hypopituitarism. Isidori AM, Kaltsas GA, Perry L, Burrin JM, Besser GM, Monson JP. Department of Endocrinology, Barts and The London, Queen Mary's School of Medicine and Dentistry, London, UK.

23) Taehan Kanho Hakhoe Chi. 2004 Apr;34(2):344-51.
[The effect of aroma inhalation method on stress responses of nursing students.] Park MK, Lee ES. Department of Nursing, Nambu University, Gwangsan-gu, Gwangju city, Korea. [email protected]
24) Anonymous. Sclareolide Effect on cAMP in Two Cell Lines. Unpublished report by NovaScreen. 2003; 19 pp

25) Neurosci Lett. 2005 Aug 5;383(3):215-9. Epub 2005 Apr 26 Tyramine-immunoreactive neuronal structures in the rat brain: abundance in the median eminence of the mediobasal hypothalamus. Kitahama K, Araneda S, Geffard M, Sei H, Okamura H. CNRS UMR5123, Laboratoire de Physiologie Integrative Cellulaire et Moleculaire, Universite Claude Bernard, Villeurbanne, France. [email protected]

26) Histol Histopathol. 2004 Jul;19(3):985-97. Effects of thyroid hormones on Leydig cells in the postnatal testis.
Mendis-Handagama SM, Ariyaratne HB. Department of Comparative Medicine, The University of Tennessee College of Veterinary Medicine, Knoxville, TN 37996, USA. [email protected]

 

[uhockey]

I'm quite obviously not going through 26 articles looking for the scraps of evidence pointing to the product's anti-catabolic nature. Could you please ask him which reference I should focus on?

No offense, but I don't think I need a lecture on the cost/benefit analysis of utilizing exogenous T3/T4.

 

[FitnFirm]

I'm quite obviously not going through 26 articles looking for the scraps of evidence pointing to the product's anti-catabolic nature. Could you please ask him which reference I should focus on?

No offense, but I don't think I need a lecture on the cost/benefit analysis of utilizing exogenous T3/T4.

Ok, I have sent a message to ALR, Ill post it when I get it ok? So while we are waiting please pack up that Sustain bar

 

[FitnFirm]

I'm quite obviously not going through 26 articles looking for the scraps of evidence pointing to the product's anti-catabolic nature. Could you please ask him which reference I should focus on?

No offense, but I don't think I need a lecture on the cost/benefit analysis of utilizing exogenous T3/T4.

As you wished Mr. Uhockey I have your answer below: Now before you read it, just know that the time ALR spent doing this for me will make me work an extra week to make up for his time away from his scientific duties, therfor I need a sustain bar to help get me through :toofunny:


okay, assume that someone is increasing calorie intake during thyroid activty increase (be it by way of direct synthetic, TSH stimulation or receptor sensitivity) There will be a net increase in muscle anabolism if the dosage/rate of protein synthesis does not exceed that of nutrients supplied. So that is a dead issue in regard to catabolism increased due to thyroid activity when calories are increased. (No real NEED for anti-catabolics, but more muscle is always a best IMO)

But...

If an athlete were to use a thyroid analog or an effective TSH stim during a calorie deficit period, this will result in net lean tissue loss IF the calorie expenditure exceeds that of freed fatty acids form stores normal to correct calorie decrease. In those who diet and lose muscle it is due to improper balance. BUT, hitting this magic number of calories is not always as predictable as we would like. The loss of muscle tissue is the action of cortisol site specifically, meaning within muscle, not elsewhere. It is because the body perceives the need for more calories and muscle AA are destroyed for their carbon back bone to feed the need. So the goal becomes site specific managment of non-muscle eating cortisone coversion to cortisol, as well as some control systemically. (Who needs exess cortisol ever?)

So assuming that the dieter is at least in the ball park somewhere with calorie needs, and expenditure, simply a good compound is needed to handle/mediate the cortsone to cortisol conversion and subsequent catabolism...an anti-catabolic to be exact. ALRI opted to increase the net value of their thyroid product design with a intended application for those who seek increased calorie expenditure/protein synthesis without the potential for increased lean tissue loss by including their favorite anti-catabolic. But, no one said it is possible to have 0 calorie intake and still maintain or grow muscle. You still need to keep the diet right for the goal.

Beta AET ECPE (beta-androstenetriol ECPE)? We have all heard, and in many cases experienced, the positive effects of DHEA and its even better metabolites. As example are the patented and effective products 7-OXO-DHEA and of course 7-Hydroxy-DHEA analogs. They are noted for their unique ability to avoid conversion into androgenic metabolites or affect androgen receptors while promoting fat loss, lean mass retention and even maximizing thyroid gland activity. Of course oral bio-availability is pretty poor with most of these analogs thus requiring higher dosages. Did I mention that bAET (b-androstenetriol) is between 100 and 100,000 times more active than its DHEA precursor metabolites? Okay, how about that bAET ECPE is nearly 100% orally bioavailable? Yup. It’s why we formulated it.

Okay, let me explain a little about the fat loss and lean muscle side of things in regard to bAET ECPE…

Glucocorticoids in humans are in two forms: Inactive cortisone and very active for eating muscle cortisol. There are two enzymes that are able to make each of these convert into the other.

11b-HSD-1: Converts inactive cortisone into cannibalistic cortisol. Studies have implicated this event in fat tissue as a pathway for increased fat storage. Part of the reason GH has a positive affect upon body composition is through its ability to inhibit 11b-HDS-1
11b-HSD-2: Converts nasty cortisol into cortisone. 11betaHSD2 debunks intracellular cortisol by 90%. (Let the 11b-HSD-2 rule the house)

Hmmm, more 11b-HSD-1 means more cortisol which eats more muscle. And less means…Duh!

Beta-AET ECPE inhibits the 11b-HSD-1 enzyme both locally and systemically. This means that there is less conversion of cortisone to cortisol in muscle as a result of training and everywhere else due to stress like dieting. Based upon the studies, it appears that in mediating this pathway, bAET ECPE increases immune function and recovery of cells as well. Add this to its stimulatory affect upon the thyroid gland to support natural thyroid hormone production? Yup, less cortisol, higher metabolic rate, inhibition of that nasty negative thyroid hormone production feed-back loop…less fat, more lean muscle and positive support to health. Not bad!

T-X™


Gaspari made no attempt to deal with the catabolic side of thyroid hormones. It simply was not part of their product design intent. It is a very good product and deserves praise when used as directed

 

[uhockey]

Cool. Thanks Mr. ALRI. May have to check that product out in the future and see if/how it compares to Dicana.

The whole read has me thinking about Gaspari's thyrotabs + DS Lean Xtreme, however.

 

[RAVEN]

Hot damn !!!!! Great job Fit. Geez Uhockey whats wrong with a little reading now and then. lol

As you wished Mr. Uhockey I have your answer below: Now before you read it, just know that the time ALR spent doing this for me will make me work an extra week to make up for his time away from his scientific duties, therfor I need a sustain bar to help get me through :toofunny:


okay, assume that someone is increasing calorie intake during thyroid activty increase (be it by way of direct synthetic, TSH stimulation or receptor sensitivity) There will be a net increase in muscle anabolism if the dosage/rate of protein synthesis does not exceed that of nutrients supplied. So that is a dead issue in regard to catabolism increased due to thyroid activity when calories are increased. (No real NEED for anti-catabolics, but more muscle is always a best IMO)

But...

If an athlete were to use a thyroid analog or an effective TSH stim during a calorie deficit period, this will result in net lean tissue loss IF the calorie expenditure exceeds that of freed fatty acids form stores normal to correct calorie decrease. In those who diet and lose muscle it is due to improper balance. BUT, hitting this magic number of calories is not always as predictable as we would like. The loss of muscle tissue is the action of cortisol site specifically, meaning within muscle, not elsewhere. It is because the body perceives the need for more calories and muscle AA are destroyed for their carbon back bone to feed the need. So the goal becomes site specific managment of non-muscle eating cortisone coversion to cortisol, as well as some control systemically. (Who needs exess cortisol ever?)

So assuming that the dieter is at least in the ball park somewhere with calorie needs, and expenditure, simply a good compound is needed to handle/mediate the cortsone to cortisol conversion and subsequent catabolism...an anti-catabolic to be exact. ALRI opted to increase the net value of their thyroid product design with a intended application for those who seek increased calorie expenditure/protein synthesis without the potential for increased lean tissue loss by including their favorite anti-catabolic. But, no one said it is possible to have 0 calorie intake and still maintain or grow muscle. You still need to keep the diet right for the goal.

Beta AET ECPE (beta-androstenetriol ECPE)? We have all heard, and in many cases experienced, the positive effects of DHEA and its even better metabolites. As example are the patented and effective products 7-OXO-DHEA and of course 7-Hydroxy-DHEA analogs. They are noted for their unique ability to avoid conversion into androgenic metabolites or affect androgen receptors while promoting fat loss, lean mass retention and even maximizing thyroid gland activity. Of course oral bio-availability is pretty poor with most of these analogs thus requiring higher dosages. Did I mention that bAET (b-androstenetriol) is between 100 and 100,000 times more active than its DHEA precursor metabolites? Okay, how about that bAET ECPE is nearly 100% orally bioavailable? Yup. It’s why we formulated it.

Okay, let me explain a little about the fat loss and lean muscle side of things in regard to bAET ECPE…

Glucocorticoids in humans are in two forms: Inactive cortisone and very active for eating muscle cortisol. There are two enzymes that are able to make each of these convert into the other.

11b-HSD-1: Converts inactive cortisone into cannibalistic cortisol. Studies have implicated this event in fat tissue as a pathway for increased fat storage. Part of the reason GH has a positive affect upon body composition is through its ability to inhibit 11b-HDS-1
11b-HSD-2: Converts nasty cortisol into cortisone. 11betaHSD2 debunks intracellular cortisol by 90%. (Let the 11b-HSD-2 rule the house)

Hmmm, more 11b-HSD-1 means more cortisol which eats more muscle. And less means…Duh!

Beta-AET ECPE inhibits the 11b-HSD-1 enzyme both locally and systemically. This means that there is less conversion of cortisone to cortisol in muscle as a result of training and everywhere else due to stress like dieting. Based upon the studies, it appears that in mediating this pathway, bAET ECPE increases immune function and recovery of cells as well. Add this to its stimulatory affect upon the thyroid gland to support natural thyroid hormone production? Yup, less cortisol, higher metabolic rate, inhibition of that nasty negative thyroid hormone production feed-back loop…less fat, more lean muscle and positive support to health. Not bad!

T-X™


Gaspari made no attempt to deal with the catabolic side of thyroid hormones. It simply was not part of their product design intent. It is a very good product and deserves praise when used as directed

 

[RunMav]

Thank you for all the info Fit
I can't wait to try JW next week!!!

about the carb timing for JW, could you explain that a bit further? I was trying to read your log for the Monster Building and could find out anything about that. Btw fantastic log....all 24 pages

 

[FitnFirm]

Thank you for all the info Fit
I can't wait to try JW next week!!!

about the carb timing for JW, could you explain that a bit further? I was trying to read your log for the Monster Building and could find out anything about that. Btw fantastic log....all 24 pages

Sure, always take your JW with meals for one, and after you take JW about an hour or so take a small serving of carbs, this is to avoid any headaches, as alot of people are experiencing. Because JW works so well, it pulls so much glycogen to your muscles that some get a headache, sort of a hypoglycemic headache, it can easily be taken care of with food though.

We take JW at breakfast, dinner and bedtime. We have not had any of these headaches probably because we eat so often on our plans.

Def, eat good clean food for optimal growth and energy, you will notice after a week or two you are more hungry, then you need to up cals to keep feeding your new muscle

 

[uhockey]

Hot damn !!!!! Great job Fit. Geez Uhockey whats wrong with a little reading now and then. lol

Not having access to 26 articles, and not willing to take a rep's word as gold. I'll take ALR's word, however, usually, after more reading.

 

[Lean1038]

Would you recommend this with a CEE product for bulking?

Such as SNS CVM Extreme or N Gorge?

Any reason why not?

Thanks in advance.

 

[FitnFirm]

Would you recommend this with a CEE product for bulking?

Such as SNS CVM Extreme or N Gorge?

Any reason why not?

Thanks in advance.

N-Gorge is fine to use with JW for bulking, I use it now.

 

[ktw]

There are enough flames in this thread to start a 5 alarm fire.

 

[FitnFirm]

There are enough flames in this thread to start a 5 alarm fire.

Hey 5 alarm is the name of the chili spice pack I use Now Im hungry!!!! Thanks alot!

 

[ktw]

That stuff is good too.

 

[uhockey]

Would you recommend this with a CEE product for bulking?

Such as SNS CVM Extreme or N Gorge?

Any reason why not?

Thanks in advance.

Why not?

Because Xceed exists.

Honestly, avoid products with glycocyamine. Do the reading. Even at the magical "4:1" ratio, it's not worth it.

 

[Lean1038]

Why not?

Because Xceed exists.

Honestly, avoid products with glycocyamine. Do the reading. Even at the magical "4:1" ratio, it's not worth it.

Interesting. Please explain.

Is that found in both CVM AND N Gorge?

 

[FitnFirm]

Interesting. Please explain.

Is that found in both CVM AND N Gorge?

This ingredient converts to creatine in the liver, typically found in products that non-responders to CEE would use. It is not in N-Gorge.

But the user has to take betaine and make sure its dosage is 4 times the amount of glycocyamine.

 

[uhockey]

This ingredient converts to creatine in the liver, typically found in products that non-responders to CEE would use. It is not in N-Gorge.

But the user has to take betaine and make sure its dosage is 4 times the amount of glycocyamine.

It is not in N-Gorge, but it IS in the SNS product and should be avoided.

There is just about ZERO evidence that it is effective in humans at all, plenty of evidence that it causes increased homocystein levels (which is an independant risk factor for cardiovascular disease,) and that betaine 4:1 ratio is a make believe number. If you dont' buy any of that, do some research.:study:

 

[Lean1038]

It is not in N-Gorge, but it IS in the SNS product and should be avoided.

There is just about ZERO evidence that it is effective in humans at all, plenty of evidence that it causes increased homocystein levels (which is an independant risk factor for cardiovascular disease,) and that betaine 4:1 ratio is a make believe number. If you dont' buy any of that, do some research.:study:

Good posting guys. Keep it up.