How Much Glutamine Did You Say?

[NO HYPE]

Did the suggested amount of glutamine per day skyrocket overnight or what? The last I checked the norm was anywhere from 5 to 15g per day. I just read an article stating the norm is anywhere from 25 to 50g a day! This is a freakin huge diff. Anyone here ever have any troubles from a dosage that high?

 

[MadJimF]

I'm right between the two, I take 5 first thing in the am, 5 pre, 5 post, 5 before bed, that's not including my 2 servings of Excell during workout, and whatever is in my whey, so wow I guess I take a lot of glutamine, no problems with it...

 

[gotripped]

Did the suggested amount of glutamine per day skyrocket overnight or what? The last I checked the norm was anywhere from 5 to 15g per day. I just read an article stating the norm is anywhere from 25 to 50g a day! This is a freakin huge diff. Anyone here ever have any troubles from a dosage that high?

There was an article that glutamine was actually not lowered even in high intensity workouts such as 26 mile marathons. And lowered only slightly but rose several hours after. It was an article found by yeahright.
search 4 it

 

[jonny21]

Did the suggested amount of glutamine per day skyrocket overnight or what? The last I checked the norm was anywhere from 5 to 15g per day. I just read an article stating the norm is anywhere from 25 to 50g a day! This is a freakin huge diff. Anyone here ever have any troubles from a dosage that high?

Anything over 0 grams is unecessary for bodybuilders

 

[gotripped]

Indeed. We don't put enough stress on our bodies in order to even require it in high doses.

 

[CHAPS]

An article by author L. Rea stated that you need between 50-120g's of glutamine a day. I use 50g's and the effects are MUCH more pronouced, it's a real cell volumizer in higher doses. recovery is excellent and i sleep well on it. And no no problems with the higher doses. I really improves your immune system, the health of your gut, gh output doms, so how is that NOT necessary for a bodybuilder? Those who didn't or don't get much out of it probably haven't tried mega dosing it. Glutamine Ethyl Ester will eliminate the need for such high doses so if you don't want to take like 50g's+ go with 25g's of GEE.

 

[idunk42]

Anything over 0 grams is unecessary for bodybuilders

:toofunny: funny cuz its true.

 

[NYhomeboy]

Sometimes I wonder if I release a supplement into the market that's a sugar pill with a fancy name, will I at least get some people to write good reviews on their own with no coaxing, about how how much they like it? Not suggesting that you all are being fooled by placebo, but it just made me think of that.

 

[gotripped]

Sometimes I wonder if I release a supplement into the market that's a sugar pill with a fancy name, will I at least get some people to write good reviews on their own with no coaxing, about how how much they like it? Not suggesting that you all are being fooled by placebo, but it just made me think of that.

Instead of a sugar pill mix up flour w/ water and label it. Lipo-666.

 

[ZoMbSta]

An article by author L. Rea stated that you need between 50-120g's of glutamine a day. I use 50g's and the effects are MUCH more pronouced, it's a real cell volumizer in higher doses. recovery is excellent and i sleep well on it. And no no problems with the higher doses. I really improves your immune system, the health of your gut, gh output doms, so how is that NOT necessary for a bodybuilder? Those who didn't or don't get much out of it probably haven't tried mega dosing it. Glutamine Ethyl Ester will eliminate the need for such high doses so if you don't want to take like 50g's+ go with 25g's of GEE.

no disrespect or anything...but how did you arrive at 1GEE=2Glutamine??...jus rough estimation or some theory to back it up?

 

[jonny21]

An article by author L. Rea stated that you need between 50-120g's of glutamine a day. I use 50g's and the effects are MUCH more pronouced, it's a real cell volumizer in higher doses. recovery is excellent and i sleep well on it. And no no problems with the higher doses. I really improves your immune system, the health of your gut, gh output doms, so how is that NOT necessary for a bodybuilder? Those who didn't or don't get much out of it probably haven't tried mega dosing it. Glutamine Ethyl Ester will eliminate the need for such high doses so if you don't want to take like 50g's+ go with 25g's of GEE.

It's a non-essential amino acid, the body will produce as needed. Exogenous supply has not been shown to be of any benefit unless administered parenterally and then only for those that are extremely stressed e.g. burn victims, gi surgery, endurance athletes.

 

[NO HYPE]

It's a non-essential amino acid, the body will produce as needed. Exogenous supply has not been shown to be of any benefit unless administered parenterally and then only for those that are extremely stressed e.g. burn victims, gi surgery, endurance athletes.

I hear ya as far as the body not normally needing glutamine exogenously due to the fact that it is so prevalent in the body to begin with, but u don't have to administer it as a TPN solution in order for the body to utilize it, they just use this method cuz it's more stable and more is utilized in the body. I guess my point is that a person can still recieve some benefits through supplementation of glutamine even though the benefits may indeed be minimal.

 

[jonny21]

but u don't have to administer it as a TPN solution in order for the body to utilize it, they just use this method cuz it's more stable and more is utilized in the body.

TPN, not talking about Total Parenteral Nutrition. Just administration via IV.

Sure, there may be minor benefit but in no way does the cost/benefit justify supplementation, IMO.

 

[NO HYPE]

TPN, not talking about Total Parenteral Nutrition. Just administration via IV.

Sure, there may be minor benefit but in no way does the cost/benefit justify supplementation, IMO.

Right on man, I agree.

 

[LakeMountD]

Yes, believe it or not ornithine-a-ketoglutuerate actually increases serum glutamine pools moreso than l-glutamine supplementation itself.


Enteral administration of ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate or arginine alpha-ketoglutarate: A comparative study of their effects on glutamine pools in burn-injured rats.

Laboratory Investigation
Critical Care Medicine. 25(2):293-298, February 1997.
Le Boucher, Jacques; Eng, Biol; Coudray-Lucas, Colette PhD; Lasnier, Elisabeth PharmD; Jardel, Alain PhD; Ekindjian, Ovhanesse G. PhD; Cynober, Luc A. PhD

Abstract:
Objectives: Ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate has proved to be an efficient nutritional support in trauma situations, especially after burn injury. To determine whether the action of ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate is due to its alpha-ketoglutarate moiety (as a glutamine precursor), we studied the effects of alpha-ketoglutarate administered to rats as ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate, or in combination with arginine salt (arginine alpha-ketoglutarate), as the two closely related amino acids have similar metabolic behavior.

Design: Prospective, randomized trial.

Setting: Animal laboratory.

Subjects: Forty-six male Wistar rats, weighing [approximately]90 g.

Interventions: Rats were burned over 20% of their body surface area, starved for 24 hrs, with water ad libitum, and then enterally refed for 48 hrs using Osmolite[R] (210 kcal/kg/day, 1.2 g of nitrogen/kg/day), supplemented with one of the following: a) an amount of glycine isonitrogenous to ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate (group 1); b) 5 g of monohydrated ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate/kg/day (group 2); c) an amount of arginine alpha-ketoglutarate isonitrogenous to ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate (group 3); or d) an amount of arginine alpha-ketoglutarate isomolar to ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate (group 4).

Measurements and Main Results: We measured amino acid concentrations in plasma, muscle, and liver, and plasma urea concentration. At refeeding, ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate increased plasma glutamine concentration (p < .05 vs. the three other groups), and counteracted the increase in plasma phenylalanine concentration. In muscle, although the three alpha-ketoglutarate combinations induced similar increases in the glutamate pool, ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate induced the highest increase in glutamine (7.0 +/- 0.3 vs. 5.4 +/- 0.3 micro mol/g in group 3, 6.3 +/- 0.3 in group 4, and 4.6 +/- 0.2 in group 1, p < .01 between group 2 and groups 3 or 1). Also, only ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate increased liver glutamine concentration. Finally, isomolar arginine alpha-ketoglutarate increased plasma urea concentration (+50% vs. the three other groups, p < .01).

Conclusions: Our results demonstrate, for the first time, the following: a) the action of ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate as a glutamine precursor cannot solely be ascribed to alpha-ketoglutarate since arginine alpha-ketoglutarate combinations did not exhibit this effect to the same extent; and b) the action of ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate is not due to its nitrogen content since isonitrogenous arginine alpha-ketoglutarate did not reproduce the effects of ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate. (Crit Care Med 1997; 25:293-298)

 

[NO HYPE]

Yes, believe it or not ornithine-a-ketoglutuerate actually increases serum glutamine pools moreso than l-glutamine supplementation itself.


Enteral administration of ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate or arginine alpha-ketoglutarate: A comparative study of their effects on glutamine pools in burn-injured rats.

Laboratory Investigation
Critical Care Medicine. 25(2):293-298, February 1997.
Le Boucher, Jacques; Eng, Biol; Coudray-Lucas, Colette PhD; Lasnier, Elisabeth PharmD; Jardel, Alain PhD; Ekindjian, Ovhanesse G. PhD; Cynober, Luc A. PhD

Abstract:
Objectives: Ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate has proved to be an efficient nutritional support in trauma situations, especially after burn injury. To determine whether the action of ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate is due to its alpha-ketoglutarate moiety (as a glutamine precursor), we studied the effects of alpha-ketoglutarate administered to rats as ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate, or in combination with arginine salt (arginine alpha-ketoglutarate), as the two closely related amino acids have similar metabolic behavior.

Design: Prospective, randomized trial.

Setting: Animal laboratory.

Subjects: Forty-six male Wistar rats, weighing [approximately]90 g.

Interventions: Rats were burned over 20% of their body surface area, starved for 24 hrs, with water ad libitum, and then enterally refed for 48 hrs using Osmolite[R] (210 kcal/kg/day, 1.2 g of nitrogen/kg/day), supplemented with one of the following: a) an amount of glycine isonitrogenous to ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate (group 1); b) 5 g of monohydrated ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate/kg/day (group 2); c) an amount of arginine alpha-ketoglutarate isonitrogenous to ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate (group 3); or d) an amount of arginine alpha-ketoglutarate isomolar to ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate (group 4).

Measurements and Main Results: We measured amino acid concentrations in plasma, muscle, and liver, and plasma urea concentration. At refeeding, ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate increased plasma glutamine concentration (p < .05 vs. the three other groups), and counteracted the increase in plasma phenylalanine concentration. In muscle, although the three alpha-ketoglutarate combinations induced similar increases in the glutamate pool, ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate induced the highest increase in glutamine (7.0 +/- 0.3 vs. 5.4 +/- 0.3 micro mol/g in group 3, 6.3 +/- 0.3 in group 4, and 4.6 +/- 0.2 in group 1, p < .01 between group 2 and groups 3 or 1). Also, only ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate increased liver glutamine concentration. Finally, isomolar arginine alpha-ketoglutarate increased plasma urea concentration (+50% vs. the three other groups, p < .01).

Conclusions: Our results demonstrate, for the first time, the following: a) the action of ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate as a glutamine precursor cannot solely be ascribed to alpha-ketoglutarate since arginine alpha-ketoglutarate combinations did not exhibit this effect to the same extent; and b) the action of ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate is not due to its nitrogen content since isonitrogenous arginine alpha-ketoglutarate did not reproduce the effects of ornithine alpha-ketoglutarate. (Crit Care Med 1997; 25:293-298)

Good post, interesting info. Thanks.

 

[LakeMountD]

Good post, interesting info. Thanks.

No problem, it is pissing me off though that I cannot find the study I saw a couple days ago that showed l-glutamine vs. OKG supplementation and the reults showing OKG increased plasma levels higher. I sent it to a few people but couldn't remember who so I can't check my AIM logs either. OKG also decreases phenylaline concentrations as well.

OKG is insulinogenic though so just know that. Not a horrible thing for everyone PWO but for people looking to keep insulin levels down or cutting it might not be super beneficial.

 

[CHAPS]

It was a rough estimate on the GEE dosing.

 

[MadJimF]

I think Glutamine is one of the most hated/loved supplements, I take it and like it, I know some people hate it and think it's 100% useless, but I know some folks that think it's higher on the chain then creatine.

It's cheap, it don't hurt you, maybe it helps, it's tastless, and I just got a fresh kilo from cnw, so I'll keep dosing it.

But what do I know, I think my gakic from the evil muscletech works for me....

 

[CHAPS]

Charles Poliquin, world class trainer to many olympic athletes, weightlifters, powerlifters and i'm sure some bodybuilders uses 80g's of glutamine on his clients for post-workout instead of carbs if they are over 10% bf.

 

[NO HYPE]

Charles Poliquin, world class trainer to many olympic athletes, weightlifters, powerlifters and i'm sure some bodybuilders uses 80g's of glutamine on his clients for post-workout instead of carbs if they are over 10% bf.

I guess he doesn't think to highly of nitric oxide production than.

 

[Iron Warrior]

I use 50g's and the effects are MUCH more pronouced, it's a real cell volumizer in higher doses. recovery is excellent and i sleep well on it. And no no problems with the higher doses

Creatine is also a great cell volumizer, it's cheaper, and you won't need 50+ grams

 

[Achilles13]

For BBer's who carb cycle or anyone at that point it may be beneficial according to the study that was posted in the supplement article section:


The other time that glutamine supplementation may be beneficial to bodybuilders is when on a low carbohydrate diet. Glutamine can not only be converted to glucose, but may also have an anapleurotic effect.(5) In other words, it may replenish metabolic intermediates, in this case, ATP (especially important when you're lacking carbs). This is another article unto itself, so I'll leave it at that for now.

Here's article:http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-articles/49251-why-oral-glutamine-powder-waste-money-new-post.html


I for one carb cycle so I may take some interest in it. But at the dosages that are being recommended I could probably save money and buy something else that is useful(in a way). The only glutamine that I have read that is beneficial would be L-glutamine.

 

[jonny21]

For BBer's who carb cycle or anyone at that point it may be beneficial according to the study that was posted in the supplement article section:


The other time that glutamine supplementation may be beneficial to bodybuilders is when on a low carbohydrate diet. Glutamine can not only be converted to glucose, but may also have an anapleurotic effect.(5) In other words, it may replenish metabolic intermediates, in this case, ATP (especially important when you're lacking carbs). This is another article unto itself, so I'll leave it at that for now.

Here's article:http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-articles/49251-why-oral-glutamine-powder-waste-money-new-post.html


I for one carb cycle so I may take some interest in it. But at the dosages that are being recommended I could probably save money and buy something else that is useful(in a way). The only glutamine that I have read that is beneficial would be L-glutamine.

I am not sure if it converts directly to glucose; I do know it is one of the amino acids that form alpha-ketoglutarate which is an intermediate in the TCA cycle.

 

[jonny21]

Part of an by Article by Jose Antonio PhD

QUESTION: DOES GLUTAMINE AFFECT THE METABOLISM OF SUGAR?

The effect of glutamine on glucose (sugar) metabolism is one effect of glutamine which has not received much press in the bodybuilding world. In fact, a very recent study from the University of Rochester demonstrated the importance of glutamine as a regulator of gluconeogenesis (formation of glucose). Using human subjects, they found that the infusion of glutamine resulted in a conversion of glutamine to glucose. This occurred without any changes in either insulin or glucagon, the two major glucoregulatory hormones. The conversion of glutamine to glucose likely occurs in the kidney as opposed to the liver which the primary regulator of glucose production.

So how does this affect bodybuilders? Glutamine could affect for instance the amount of fat loss that a pre-contest bodybuilder can attain. See if you can follow this reasoning. Part of the difficulty in dieting down to low body fat levels is related to the precise regulation of the glucoregulatory hormones, insuline and glucagon. Typically, we would like to minimize the level of insulin secreted in order to inhibit the deposition of fat into our adipose tissue. Of course, the problem with that is that low glucose or carb intake itself may result in muscle proteolysis since it is well known that glucose has a protein-sparing effect. So in comes glutamine. Glutamine can itself be converted to glucose. This is good in that glucose can serve as brain fuel (so you won’t feel to irritable) and it can help spare some of that precious muscle mass you’ve attained. But also, since the conversion of glutamine to glucose does NOT result in an increase in insulin levels, then you will not get the lipogenic effect that insulin produces...

REFERENCES

Blomqvist, B.I. et al. Glutamine and alpha-ketoglutarate prevent the decrease in muscle free glutamine concentration and influence protein synthesis after total hip replacement. Metabolism. 44:1215-1222, 1995.

Castell, L.M. et al. Some aspects of the acute phase response after a marathon race, and the effects of glutamine supplementation. European Journal of Applied Physiology. 75:47-53, 1997.

Hammarqvist, F. et al. Addition of glutamine to total parenteral nutrition after elective abdominal surgery spares free glutamine in muscle, counteracts the fall in muscle protein synthesis, and improves nitrogen balance. Annals Surgery. 209:455-461, 1989.

Hickson, R.C., S.M. Czerwinski, and L.E. Wegrzyn. Glutamine prevents the downregulation of myosin heavy chain synthesis and muscle atrophy from glucocorticoids. American Journal of Physiology. 268:E730-E734, 1995.

Keast, D. et al. Depression of plasma glutamine concentration after exercise stress and its possible influence on the immune system. Medical Journal of Australia. 162:15-18, 1995.

Kinscherf, R. et al. Low plasma glutamine in combination with high glutamate levels indicate risk for loss of body cell mass in healthy individuals: the effect of N-acetyl-cysteine. Journal of Molecular Medicine. 74:393-400, 1996.

Lacey, J.M. and D.W. Wilmore. Is glutamine a conditionally essential amino acid? Nutrition Reviews. 48:297-309, 1990.

Opara, E.C. et al. L-glutamine supplementation of a high fat diet reduces body weight and attenuates hyperglycemia and hyperinsulinemia in C57BL/6J mice. Journal of Nutrition. 126:273-279, 1996.

Perriello, G. et al. Regulation of gluconeogenesis by glutamine in normal postabsorptive humans. American Journal of Physiology. 272:E437-E445, 1997.

Rohde, T. et al. The immune system and serum glutamine during a triathlon. European Journal of Applied Physiology. 74:428-434, 1996.

Rowbottom, D.G. et al. The haematological, biochemical and immunological profile of athletes suffering from the overtraining syndrome. European Journal of Applied Physiology. 70:502-509, 1995.

Rowbottom, D.G. et al. The emerging role of glutamine as an indicator of exercise stress and overtraining. Sports Medicine. 21:80-97, 1996.

Shewchuk, L.D. et al. Dietary L-glutamine does not improve lymphocyte metabolism or function in exercise-trained rats. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. 29:474-481, 1997.

Not that I do not trust anyone I am just curious:
What the exact pathway of glutamine to glucose?

How elevated glucose levels is not insulinogenic? It would make sense if it was a glucose like effect by producing an intermediary to the TCA cycle and therefore increasing ATP.

Anyone able to help out?

 

[LakeMountD]

Charles Poliquin, world class trainer to many olympic athletes, weightlifters, powerlifters and i'm sure some bodybuilders uses 80g's of glutamine on his clients for post-workout instead of carbs if they are over 10% bf.

Well heck with the level of biovailability l-glut has, you would need 80 friggin grams of it!! I have not heard of glutamine NOT being insulinogenic, and in fact all the studies that I have read about ornithine a-ketogluterate says that it is also insulinogenic since it has a conversion mechanism to glutamine, which in turns raises glucose and insulin levels. I will look for the studies later.

 

[NO HYPE]

Hey....Just thought I'd throw one more negative in relation to glutamine dosage and Nitric Oxide. U guys ever here about glutimine interfering with NO production? If u see a bottle of Nitrix anywhere, pick it up. BSN recomends that glutamine intake should be under 10 grams a day while using Nitrix. Turns out, glutamine plays a MAJOR role in transporting ammonia out of the body. This ammonia based gas directly diminishes the amount of NO in the bloodstream. I'm not sure how BSN came to the conclusion of 10g a day or under but in any case it appears that glutamine should be avoided before workouts.

 

[LakeMountD]

Hey....Just thought I'd throw one more negative in relation to glutamine dosage and Nitric Oxide. U guys ever here about glutimine interfering with NO production? If u see a bottle of Nitrix anywhere, pick it up. BSN recomends that glutamine intake should be under 10 grams a day while using Nitrix. Turns out, glutamine plays a MAJOR role in transporting ammonia out of the body. This ammonia based gas directly diminishes the amount of NO in the bloodstream. I'm not sure how BSN came to the conclusion of 10g a day or under but in any case it appears that glutamine should be avoided before workouts.

Actually yes I have seen this when I was looking into using OAKG in our Chaos product but that was the thing that turned me off about it.

 

[gotripped]

I'm just guessing that SD does not give you insane pumps from Nitric oxide right? That the androgenic side of a pump is coming from something else? What I'm trying to understand is if glutamine would decrease the pumps of SD.
I'm most likely waaaaay off.

 

[NO HYPE]

I'm just guessing that superdrol does not give you insane pumps from Nitric oxide right? That the androgenic side of a pump is coming from something else? What I'm trying to understand is if glutamine would decrease the pumps of SD.
I'm most likely waaaaay off.

Let's take SD out of the picture for a sec. Try understanding nitric oxide in terms of vasodilation alone. Vasodilation is the expansion of the blood vessels/veins wich in turn increases bloodflow. An increase in bloodflow to the extremeties and brain results in, more stamina, more energy, quicker muscle recovery, increased adsorbtion of vitamins, minerals and proteins, and oh yeah....PUMPS! NO is a key factor in the bodys ability to create and sustain a pump....Provided you are taking a quality NO sustainer like arginine / citrulline, but thats another story. Anyways, in my opinion, if glutamine is a MAJOR component/carrier of ammonia through and out of the body, and ammonia is a suicide inhibitor of NO, then all the advantages of NO production (including pumps) would be minimized.

 

[gotripped]

Let's take superdrol out of the picture for a sec. Try understanding nitric oxide in terms of vasodilation alone. Vasodilation is the expansion of the blood vessels/veins wich in turn increases bloodflow. An increase in bloodflow to the extremeties and brain results in, more stamina, more energy, quicker muscle recovery, increased adsorbtion of vitamins, minerals and proteins, and oh yeah....PUMPS! NO is a key factor in the bodys ability to create and sustain a pump....Provided you are taking a quality NO sustainer like arginine / citrulline, but thats another story. Anyways, in my opinion, if glutamine is a MAJOR component/carrier of ammonia through and out of the body, and ammonia is a suicide inhibitor of NO, then all the advantages of NO production (including pumps) would be minimized.

Smart one you are.

 

[NO HYPE]

Smart one you are.

Thanks man. Nitric oxide / energy / endurance / MMA/ and nutritional supplements are what I know.:bruce1: