Can Stuff like Trubulus,HGW and MACA.....
- 07-04-2006, 09:43 PM
Can Stuff like Trubulus,HGW and MACA.....
Shrink your testicles and cause other problems like Gyno??
Just wondering,I use to take a Tribulus/Maca/Horny Goat Weed stack but I stopped because I was having stomach problems,was it a big deal i stopped right away?? I was on them for about a month and I'm thinking of starting up again with better brands instead of vitamin store ones,but if they will cause any problems,I don't think I will.
I liked how i felt when taking them,I think I had low test before because I was a lazy burger king T.V watching fat ass for a few years,and while taking the stack I felt great and could workout all day if i wanted to,maybe it was a placebo effect.
Anyways,sorry to ramble,any help would be great,thank you.
- 07-05-2006, 12:13 PM
07-05-2006, 12:50 PM
To my best knolledge I have never heard of people getting into any problems, but i think some safe advice would be time=time off when taking "hormonal" type things. Those herbs arent gonna hurt you though...
07-11-2006, 02:13 AM
hmm. i had a crazy insane weekend when i pounded up and cooked for a while some fenugreek seeds. no extract, no capsules, just used the mortar and pestle on real, whole fenugreek seeds (the kind used in cooking). but that may also have been an interaction with a MILF and her awkward daughter.
it remains in my mind. i've just gotten off a very light, and short, first cycle of a legal steroid and during the PCT took novedex xt along with some DHEA and of course upped my magnesium citrate and zinc supplements (no zma but hey..). i take a b complex, plenty of others, eat good foods, very clean diet. in addition to the novedex xt (just one capsule, quickly tapered down to half a capsule) i took 25mg DHEA, because i'm young it should have much effect. this was a very mild steroid cycle, not more than two weeks, very low dose the first week, seeing what it could do at a lower dose. the pct was more psychable than the actual cycle, except for the last 3 or 4 days (maybe). it was subtle, too subtle to be written in stone. i'd have to already be totally conditioned and on a set routine, with no variations to muddy the waters. but i'm rambling (probably because i haven't even bothered to write about this anywhere).
my point is: last sunday while i was squatting i could literally feel my balls ache even more than they were earlier that day. after the workout they kept aching. i was maybe a few days into the estrogen-blocking PCT and my days were filled with what i now know to be high endogenous testosterone. first day of PCT was a total *****, very angry feelings the whole day, despite no work and very nice weather. i acclimated quickly. no relieving myself, masturbation-wise. that probably also helps sustain test. and other hormone levels. good and strong. e blockers/ai's, at least the ATD products.. can kick the test up, that's a given (i guess).
tribulus was not that much anger, and certainly not for that long. but tribulus was easily more sexual, the ATD does seem to cause a decline, probably because of estrogen's role in our psychology. trib sure works for me. maca is nice, too. don't know about HGW. i hear tongkat ali, eurycoma longifolia? is also really good. has shbg reducing activity. that and the stinging nettle (urtica). i haven't much experience with the SHBG lowering stuff but that Anabolx+ sure can kick my ass, i've gotta do a dedicated cycle on that stuff some day.
some people don't respond to this stuff, others do. i wouldn't be surprised if it works in you. don't worry too much, the supplement industry probably just doesn't want you to feel like these herbs have much to offer you, they want you gulping down their own precious capsules instead! i like to see both sides.
if you've got some generic tribulus left, try this: breaking them open (if they're sticky you may need to find a way to grind them down) and pour the herbal dust into some hard liquor. let it set for a couple of weeks. throw in some maca if you like, i really don't know how much of active compounds are good for extraction from a tincture but i can say it sure makes that internet pornography hard to resist!! yowzers!
can you describe your stomach problems? i know i've gotten hungrier after using these common, generic herbals. i just can't doubt it, attributing it to placebo. it doesn't last long, but i feel my stomach prepare for more food. try some animal flesh and good animal fats with the burning, following 2 hours later with a lot of carbs. this doesn't happen every time, but it happens enough.
i seriously think that these LH increasing herbals are a good way to come off a PCT, kind of like pct for PCT. i have really enjoyed some of these herbals. i also have noticed that i don't suffer much from withdrawal, at least from short cycles. i seem to respond well to the purely physical stimuli of exercise, so maybe the herbals are also more influential for me than for others. i'm probably just simple in my gene expression. (i was also taking 1/4 teaspoon bulk rhodiola powder during most of my experimentation with the herbals)
anything that gets your body to generate more testosterone is likely to actually work against gonadal atrophy. so stop being a whiny beeyotch and take yer trib!
i've gotten aches from ATD + DHEA (just to make it easier) and proper support minerals (boron, magnesium, zinc, retinol/liver). aches in me balls. tribulus has also made me sensitive, down there. not that fancy ejaculoid stuff, just plain trib. don't underestimate the power of some of these botanical compounds.
07-11-2006, 02:46 AM
That was an insanely long post, and I didn't catch all of it, save for the part about Trib raising LH. Not being an ass, but do you have studies that proves as much? I've started a thread myself Which Is Here showing that Trib has really no effect on serum Test, FSH, LH etc., levels. There are about 8 studies in there stating that Trib does have some effect as an aphrodisiac but does not effect anything androgenically linked. For the OP, interestingly enough, there is also a post in there where TT caused Gyno in a young male.
07-11-2006, 02:48 AM
I have however seen a few studies where Maca did raise LH levels, so take that for what it's worth. I think steroidal saponins do have some worth, but generic brands or just straight extracts are not going to cut it. For example, as I stated in the above thread, PFull is one of the most effective products I have used and it is a blend of saponins.
07-11-2006, 07:20 PM
i've used the above mentioned stack & will also continue to use it again. puts me in a great mood & energy levels are constant, even after a workout.
i got mine from B.N. & capped it myself into "00"s
i also added Avena Sativa & Green Tea to that & on low energy days a 150-200mg of caffeine.
07-11-2006, 08:03 PM
Tribulus has in high doses 5+grams/day made my nipples very puffy and slightly worsened pre-existing gyno, while taken during PCT. Problems went away after ceasing the use. Still to this day i do not use tribulus. While i don't think it has effect on testosterone levels i do feel that it is however an affective supplement in libido enhancement. If you are not prone to such problems then i dont see why not to use it and see what effects it has on you.
07-11-2006, 09:28 PM
I have a friend who is a powerlifter, and was taking huge doses of liquid form tribulus, and he got insane results, as well as pubic hair on his arms! I do beleive the studies can't go wrong, but the guy was religiously natural and never took test boosters before. I am convinced it does something...
07-13-2006, 03:17 PM
yeah. who likes to be seen as a schill or a gullible placebo-driven believer? the libido seems to have near unanimous concurrence. i've had that. i'm glad to see the stomach problems, not that i'm looking forward to gastric upset, but that it helps to explain my own stomach's "ready for action" response to Tribulus. there are some amino acids that increase the insulin response, such as arginine and taurine and leucine (as insulinogenics or potentiators). something like leucine is seen as directly involved in protein synthesis, so that is a good explanation. but i've found Trib to get my stomach ready for more, sooner. great for a hardcore ectomorph. so there is psychosexual, right there in the brain, and digestive applicability. but i wonder...
perhaps there is an individual variance in anabolic/performance response to Tribulus? because i could swear that my recuperation goes up from strenuous exercise, as well as increased stamina. it definently has an effect on mood and libido, so maybe it isn't so much hormonal as it is neurophysiological in nature? other than its local effects in the stomach, of course.
if it can be said to increase gyno in some men, would that be increasing estrogen levels? directly? i know that regular testosterone in the male is converted into estrogen, which explains why into the estrogen-blocking/aromatase-inhibiting cycles there is a decrease in libido with the possibility of rebound gyno from the ATD PCT alone! (the theory i've seen posited on this quality forum being that with prolonged lowered estrogen levels the estrogen receptors are hypersensitive and when circulating estrogen returns...)
Tribulus causing an increase in testosterone (by raising LH) would contribute to an increase in estrogen, different from the estrogen blocking aromatase inhibiting ATDs. well, there is individual variance in their response to these compounds, natural or synthetic. i for one am an ecto, and i feel i'm low-test unless i work my body. when i'm conditioned, which i usually am, my body doesn't elevate test levels much because there isn't much need to, other than during and immediately after weight training (yes, i do know what high natural test levels feels like, and Trib does bring this on fairly reliably, psychologically speaking). but during my regular low-test (by feel, compared to during & after strenuous exercise and these here androgenic compounds and the PCTs) i am probably also a little bit low-estrogen, just the way my body is. only alcohol and what is to me very hypercaloric intake can my body store any visible increase in body fat. my joints can ache easily on the non-aromatizable AAS/PHs and estrogen-blocking/aromatase-inhibiting compounds.
which is why i wish i had bought a ton of 19-nordiol-4 before January 20th of 2005. it pisses me off. quite literally, the banned and controlled substances would be better for my joints than any of these new legals. not that i'm complaining too much, i don't have a job that requires heavy lifting and i'm certainly not dependent on my physique to get anything from the females. it's just that with my need for strenuous exercise and my avocation in these here health supplements and now the anabolic compounds i really wish i had access to the stuff that makes heavier than normal full body lifts safer, not more dangerous. i know the CNS enhancing benefits of the more androgenic compounds can help, but the weight on the joints and cartilage is still a strain on structural integrity, and i could use the enhanced lubrication. when i hear of someone getting gyno on high doses of Tribulus, i'm not just thinking: "hey, higher levels of test?" i'm thinking: "hey, more test converting into more estrogen, without the estrogen blocking of the PCT compounds..." hmmm.. that's a big selling point to an ecto with small joints.
whatever. i seem to make faster progress within my previous max lifts when i'm taking Tribulus than when i'm not. even if it only helps with mental aspects and recuperation, the stuff works. that and the libido raising effects, which can also be seen as mental in nature. it's in the old texts, like the "Kama Sutra", for a reason.
"i've used the above mentioned stack & will also continue to use it again. puts me in a great mood & energy levels are constant, even after a workout.
i got mine from B.N. & capped it myself into "00"s
i also added Avena Sativa & Green Tea to that & on low energy days a 150-200mg of caffeine."
Do you mean the thread's title plus your Avena Sativa & Camilla Sinensis? yeah, that would work.
So there is this SHBG lowering stuff and the LH raising stuff. by this thread it would seem that Tongkat Ali* (haven't seen much "real" scientific studies supporting the SHBG lowering properties but..) and Avena Sativa raise test, that or "Activate" or Protein Factory's "Unleashed" ("Activate" from Designer Supplements has more logs and support from the bodybuilding community), "Unleashed" which is stinging nettle (urtica dioica) and avena sativa, which is an (hopefullly) extract of oats.
and now Maca raises LH? what about FenugreeK? how legit is that? i'm curious how the NHA stacks of the "Activate" (SHBG decreaser) + ATD or 6-OXO or whatever would rate against a scientifically proven herbal LH raiser + SHBG decreaser. Pinnacle's "AnabolX Plus" works really good for me, from what i can tell. i was thinking of stacking "Unleashed" or "Activate" with it. now i'm wondering if that would be a waste of my money on the SHBG-decreasing supps. maybe i should just stick with the novedexes and the 6-OXO for a NHA cycle?
Hey Wordz_Worf: purely within this thread it looks like Maca could be your LH-raiser. anything that raises LH would likely restore your testicles endogenous production of sex hormones.
i wouldn't worry too much about placebo effect on the herbs. if the herb is mostly mental in effect, by placebo/psychology or neurophysiological activity, it gets you out there doing it. the physical activity alone is almost invariably going to stimulate a home-made (endogenous) hormonal response, shifting your metabolism, your hormonal profile, your psychology into a positive direction.
the thing about increasing endogenous production of these sex steroids is your body is making the stuff, without enough of the minerals necessary for producing it you're not going to have adequate results. if you have successful sex steroid production and you've elevated it significantly than could it be that you may unnaturally deplete your body of those minerals? could that be the hypothetical cause of anhedonia and apathy, the post-cycle downtime from an herbal cycle? using the AASes means your body no longer produces its own, over time. the advantage is your body probably isn't depleted of the sex hormone production, just depleted of everything it took for your body to make the new muscle mass from the cycle. which may happen if it is significant LBM gains without a mineral rich hypercaloric diet. but that's just conjecture on my part.
07-13-2006, 03:52 PM
Wow. This is not a slice on you Gok, but I would give serious thought to considerably shortening your posts, it is hard to respond when I have to read 6-10 posts worth of material from one person.
I hope you did click on the above link in my post, as you will see that only one study out of I believe 8-10 posted showed that TT had any effect sex hormones. It was decided upon however that it must through an indirect pathway affect aphrodisiac behaviour of men.
As it pertains to Maca, yes I did read a few studies citing how other steroidal saponins had an effect on LH levels.
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