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  1. V12?

    Where is the cheapest place yall have found it? Also what have yalls strength/weightgains been like?

  2. woo, V12... yes, it is lovely... not sure where else would be cheaper, but I order everything from muscleshoppe, so I'll continue to sing their praises... great store, some things are a dollar or two more than DPS, and other things are a dollar or two less... shipping now arrives within 2-3 days of my order without fail as I believe they've set up a few new warehouses, customer service is very prompt, and it's about 33$ there... could maybe take that to easypricematch, though I personally have never used them... I've said this before in a few other places, but since creatine mono doesn't really do anything for me at all, I tried both Swole and V12... V12 was noticably much more effective (tight, full ass, almost painful pumps for usually about two hours after leaving the gym, and serious vascularity)... swole tasted like horrid butt mud, and just didn't seem to work as well... so they are now switching the formula as Bobo mentioned elsewhere to mirror V12's more accurately good luck rakey.

  3. Thanks alot... What flavor you like bebetter? i think i heard the ORANGE is much better..

  4. I used orange, yep. it kicks... most people think it's VERY sweet, so be forewarned, but I personally love it (eating bland **** throughout the day as I do), and have even tried it in grapejuice. thought it was great regardless, mixes extremely well, etc... then I tried the ****ing swole sour citrus rage or something... nasty crap, for sure... I think I still have nightmares about that ****.

  5. How long does a tub usually last you and how many "doses" yu take a day?

  6. using two servings of I believe 10g each daily, it is meant to last approx. 30 days or some such... not positive though, been a little while, and I'm a lazy **** or I'd get ya a link ... if memory serves though, that's 600g total/20g daily, so yeh. speaking of which, I need more

  7. Nutrition Facts
    Serving Size: ~9.5g
    Servings Per Container: 50

    Per Serving % Daily

    TriCreatine Malate 3.0 g **%

    Betaine-Glycocyamine 1.5 g **%

    NitroArginine (Arginine Alpha-Ketoglutarate) 1.0 g **%

    NAG (N-Acetyl-L-Glutamine) 1.0 g **%

    Micronized Taurine 1.0 g **%

    *Percent Daily Values are based on a 2,000 calorie diet.

    **Daily Value Not Established

    Ingredients: Citric Acid, Natural Flavors, Acesulfame K, Aspartame, Orange Extract Powder, Calcium Silicate

    Recommended Use: Take one level scoop twice daily, preferably 8 hours apart. V-12 can be combined with Infusion, BCAA-Pro, Methoxybol-7 and/or T-100 for increased athletic performance.

    Before beginning any program of weight loss, consult your health care practitioner. These statements have not been evaluted by the FDA. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

  8. **** i gotta go see my practioner... Thanks alot biggin thas the info i needed... I think im gonna add this to my T1 cycle and then use it through post cylce . Prepare for Rakey toget SWOLED the **** UP!!!

  9. more than welcome bro, I think you'll really be satisfied... a few others around here really like it as well, and have also posted about it recently. go get em rakester!

  10. How is the new Syntrax Swole .v2 trying to mirror San's V-12, Biggin?

    The only ingredients that the new Swole is adding that V-12 has is GPA and Taurine. Considering that Swole .v1 came out before V-12, who is mirroring who? V-12 still doesn't have glucuronolactone and Swole(either version) doesn't have NAG. As far as the GPA thing goes, SAN stole that from Syntrax, and without going back into the whole discussion I had with Bobo, SAN doesn't even use GPA in the right way in another of their products(Loaded).

    I'm not pimping for either product(although Swole works better for me) but don't make statements that aren't true.

  11. "Loaded contained GPA now all of sudden Syntrax is using it. Taurine is already in V-12 and now Syntrax is using it. Loaded contained R-LA and now Syntrax released an R-LA product." -Bobo

    I just happen to agree bro, that's all. Swole was cheaper, tasted like rotten dog meat, didn't work as well for me, and had fewer ingredients... now, **** is being added to the new formula yes? why? because they care? well, no... to stay competetive? aaah...

  12. Rakey, you'll love it man! I like the fruit punch, haven't tried the orange yet, but I may get some next order. I get mine from 1fast, usually because I'm ordering other things also. Just don't pay over $35 for it, and most good places are 32-35.

  13. Well its on the bill now I ordered from Muscleshoppe. I ordered sum 6oxo and v12 orange.... If this **** works like the normal creatine that i have tried then i am coming after you biggin...

  14. Here's a thread you might be interested in over 300 replies.

    V-12 Review

  15. Were you all using it preworkout for one of your doses? I'm wondering how well it works if not used during that time.

  16. actually, no not most of the time... I would take the first 10g in the morning, workout in the middle of the day, and have the other serving in the early afternoon, usually just aftermy workout... I wasn't too careful with the timing or anything like that though, sometimes had 3 servings daily, etc... just made sure I got it in there throughout the day, and it worked fine.

  17. I try for one dose in the morning and one about 30 minutes before I lift. Sometimes that doesn't happen and it hasn't seemed to matter that much, however. I have to say the best combo I've found is NYC or ECA and V-12 about 30-40 minutes before lifting, then I am a nutty sonofabitch in the gym.

  18. Originally posted by Sir Foxx
    SAN doesn't even use GPA in the right way in another of their products(Loaded).

    I suggest you read my last post in the other thread and you will see your assumptions on how GPA is used are mistaken, not to mention you associated skeletal muscle with the heart.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  19. Originally posted by Biggin
    "Loaded contained GPA now all of sudden Syntrax is using it. Taurine is already in V-12 and now Syntrax is using it. Loaded contained R-LA and now Syntrax released an R-LA product." -Bobo

    You forgot to add that Isomatrix contained glycocyamine without a methylating agent even though Derek criticized SAN for not having one in V-12 (even though it does).
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  20. good point Bobo, thanks for mentioning that, I actually didn't realize... makes me wonder even more about Syntrax

  21. I read your last post Bobo, doesn't change my mind.

    Isomatrix contains TMG.

    Anything else?

  22. INGREDIENTS: ISOTEIN TM [Milk-derived proteins (ultrafiltered and undenatured Whey Protein Isolate, ultrafiltered and undenatured Milk Protein Isolate [including Micellar Casein)], Soy Protein Isolate, Egg Yolk Protein Isolate], Glycocyamine, citric acid, beet root powder, natural flavors, sodium citrate, lecithin, sodium chloride.

    Glycocyamine, Isomatrix's Secret Weapon
    In our never-ending pursuit of optimizing athletic performance, Isomatrix contains the secret weapon of performance enhancing compounds--GLYCOCYAMINE. The introduction of Glycocyamine to the athletic community is the biggest breakthrough since creatine monohydrate. Glycocyamine is a super potent cell volumizing compound that also increases strength and endurance. The addition of Glycocyamine allows for more of Isomatrix muscle building protein to get to your muscles while at the same time helping to stimulate muscle growth and repair.

    Straight from Syntrax.

    Tell me where the methylating agent is.

    BTW--about the article. Figures it wouldn't change your mind. When you stop blindly listening to companies tell you whats good for you and you can look at things objectively, then debate me on this subject. Until then, the heart muscle is not skeletal muscle.

    Anything else?
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  23. I talked to Derek about it, and he assures me TMG is in Isomatrix. Just not on the ingredient list.

    I'm not listening to supplement companies, I'm reading the studies.

    Feel free to play with your health Bobo, I will take the safer road in this case.

    Show me something that says it can't affect cardiac tissue, even if it affects skeletal muscle.

  24. Then give me a study saying it will effect the heart because I just gave you numerous data on the use WITHOUT creatine. If you want to debate me then know the difference between the heart and skeletal muscle. I love how you say I'm playing with my health yet you haven't provided one shred of data suggesting GPA is harmful.

    So Derek has a product out in which he doesn't name all the ingredients? Oh I see now.... Talk about the blind leading the blind.

    Looks like your listening to Derek to me because your study doesn't say squat about health issues, AT ALL. Did you even the study you posted?
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  25. For those that are interested in some tnagible data, here you go.

    Current Patents on GPA itself…Without using Creatine

    R. P. Shields, C. K. Whitehair, R. E. Carrow, W. W. Heusner, and W. D. Van Huss: Skeletal muscle function and structure after depletion of creatine. Lab. Invest. 33: 151-158, 1975, indicates that 3-guanidinopropionic acid results in decreased exercise tolerance in rats. In T. S. Moerland, N. G. Wolf, and M. J. Kushmerick, Administration of a creatine analogue induces isomyosin transitions in muscle. Am. J. Physiol. 257:C810-C816, 1989, 3-guanidinopropionic acid was observed to have no effect on spontaneous running activity in mice.

    U.S. patent application, Ser. No. 07/486,615, filed 28 Feb. 1990, discloses a method of using 3-guanidinopropionic acid to treat or prevent excess adiposity. U.S. Patent application, Ser. No. 07/712,862, filed 10 Jun. 1991, discloses a method of using 3-guanidinopropionic acid to treat non-insulin dependent diabetes mellitus (NIDDM). The following international patent applications correspond to the above U.S. patent applications: PCT/US 91/00334, filed 22 Jan. 1991, and PCT/US 91/01109, filed 27 Feb. 1991. U.S. Pat. No. 3,843,798 discloses a method for using 3-guanidinopropionic acid to treat bacterial infections and pharmaceutical compositions useful therefor.

    British patents 1,195,199and 1,195,200 and 1,552,179 refer to pharmaceutical compositions of guanidinoalkanoic acids, their esters and amides, in combination with insulin or inhibitors of hepatic gluconeogensis.

    Moreland, Am. J. Physiol. 257 (Cell Physiol 26): C810-816, 1989) discloses 3-GPA as ineffective on blood glucose when administered in food to rats in high concentrations.


    The present invention particularly provides:

    A method of increasing endurance, stamina or exercise capacity in a mammal which comprises:

    the administration to the mammal of an amount of 3-guanidinopropionic acid or a pharmaceutically acceptable salt thereof effective to increase the endurance, stamina or exercise capacity of the mammal.

    The present invention also provides a food product which comprises:

    a) a food; and

    b) 3-guanidinopropionic acid or a pharmaceutically acceptable salt thereof in an amount effective to:

    1) increase the endurance, stamina or exercise capacity of a mammal in need thereof;

    2) treat excess adiposity in a mammal in need thereof; or

    3) treat non-insulin dependent diabetes mellitus (NIDDM) in a mammal in need thereof.

    By "3-GPA" is meant 3-guanidinopropionic acid. Pharmaceutically acceptable salts of 3-guanidinopropionic acid are described in the references cited above and are well known to one of ordinary skill in the art.

    By "increasing endurance, stamina or exercise capacity" is meant as increase in the ability to participate in or maintain participation in physical activity, such as exercise.

    By "mammal" is meant any of a class (Mammalia) of higher vertebrates comprising man and all other animals that nourish their young with milk secreted by mammary glands and have the skin usually more or less covered with hair. Especially included in this definition are human beings, whose endurance, stamina or exercise capacity is less than optimal. Such human and non-human animals are readily diagnosed by a physician or veterinarian of ordinary skill.

    By "food" or "food product" is meant a material used in the body of a mammal to sustain growth, repair, and vital processes and to furnish energy. Both solid and liquid food products are included.

    By "food additive" is meant a substance that is added to a food or food product.

    By "nutritional supplement" is meant a substance that supplements a mammal's nutrition, such as vitamins.

    The dosage regimen for 3-guanidinopropionic acid in accord with this invention will depend on the body weight of the patient. Typically, the dose of 3-guanidinopropionic acid to be used is between 10 and 4000 mg/kg body weight daily. The preferred dose is 10-400 mg/kg/day.

    3-Guanidinopropionic acid may be administered by any convenient route of administration, e.g., orally, parenterally, intranasally, intranasally, intrarectally, or topically. The oral route is preferred.

    The above compositions may be administered in a sustained release formulation. By sustained release is meant a formulation in which the drug becomes biologically available to the patient at a measured rate over a prolonged period. Such compositions are well-known in the art.

    3-GPA may be administered orally in conventional foodstuffs. For example, 3-GPA may be dissolved in juices, such as orange juice, preferably at a concentration of 75 mg/ml and taken by mouth. 3-GPA is adaptable to making a flavored dry mix which is constituted into a flavored beverage by simply adding water. These flavored mixes typically contain a viscosity inducing agent such as a gum or low molecular weight synthetic polymer; flavoring agents such as sucrose, aspartame or sodium saccharin; colorants; wetting agents or surfactants such as dioctyl sodium sulfosuccinate or sodium lauryl sulfate; agents to provide tartness and control acidity such as citric acid, ascorbic acid, potassium citrate or sodium citrate; flavorants such as lemon or orange; and preservative such as BHA. Similarly, 3-GPA can be used as an additive to powdered food products, including pudding and pie filling mixes, gelatin, cake mixes, powdered eggs and powdered potatoes, instant breakfast drinks, gravies and sauces (e.g., Hollandaise), prepared cereal products (e.g., oatmeal, cream of wheat, hominy grits), and drink mixes (e.g., powdered fruit punches, powdered fruit drinks). Likewise, 3-GPA can be used in prepared foods themselves; for example, it can be used as an additive in cakes, pasta products, candy, cookies, confections, yogurts, including frozen yogurt products, ice cream and ice ream products and prepared meats (hamburger, sausages and the like).

    The effective amount of 3-GPA is liquid food products ranges from 10 to 400 mg/ml. Preferably the amount ranges from 70 to 300 mg/ml, with 75 mg/ml being most preferred. The effective amount of 3-GPA in solid food products ranges from 1 to 500 mg/g.

    In the present invention, it has been found that 3-GPA increases exercise tolerance in normal mice (FIG. 1 and Table 1). Thus the present invention may be useful in treating muscular dysfunction, such as post-poliomyelitis chronic muscle fatigue syndrome or muscular and therefore is beneficial in treating or preventing disease states involving tissue hypoxia, e.g., peripheral claudication and exercise intolerance in diabetic humans, and angina, myocardial infarction and stroke in diabetic and normal humans.


    The present invention is seen more fully by the example below.


    Effect of 3 -GPA on Exercise Performance in Normal Mice

    C57BL6J mice, 105-150 days of age, were obtained from Charles River Laboratories (Portage, Mich.). Mice were individually caged and maintained at 21.+-.1.degree. C. using a 12 h light cycle. They were allowed free access to tap water and powdered Purina 5015 mouse chew containing 20 mg/g .beta.-GPA, resulting in a daily intake of 4 g/kg body weight, or unsupplemented chow.

    Briefly, mice were placed on a standard rodent exercise wheel, 22 inches in circumference, in a pan with water to a depth of approximately 1/4 inch, so that it was necessary for them to run in order to remain above the water. When a mouse ceased running the wheel was tapered by the operator to stimulate further activity. The procedure was recorded on video tape to permit data analysis.

    The results of this study are presented in FIG. 1 and Table 1 below. 3-Guanidinopropionic acid increased exercise performance when administered to C57BL6J mice in the diet for one month. The total distance run, the running time, and the latency to exhaustion were increased by 3-guanidinopropionic acid.


    FIGURE Effect of 3-GPA on exercise performance in C57BL6J mice. Data are shown as means.+-.S.E.M. for revolutions of the exercise wheel. Data for each 5 min interval are expressed as moving averages calculated from t=0. N=5 mice/group. 3-GPA refers to mice administered chow supplemented with 20 mg/g 3-guanidinopropionic acid for 32 days. ##STR1##

    TABLE 1
    ______________________________ ________
    Effect of 3-guanidinopropionic acid on running performance in
    C57BL6J mice. Compound were mixed in the chow at 20 mg/g for
    one month or unsupplemented chow was provided.
    ______________________________ ________
    Running rat
    16 .+-. 1 26 .+-. 3 <0.05
    (0-45 min) (ft/min)
    Total distance run 719 .+-. 65 1175 .+-. 136 <0.05
    (0-70 min) (ft)
    Total distance run 719 .+-. 65 1839 .+-. 205 <0.05
    (0-70 min) (ft)
    Latency to 45 >70
    exhaustion (min)
    ______________________________ ________

    Running performance was measured in mice on an exercise wheel, 22 inches in circumference. The procedure was recorded on video tape in order to permit data analysis. Exhaustion was indicated by an abrupt decrease in running performance. In the case of 3-GPA treated mice exhaustion did not occur and the procedure was terminated by the technician after increased endurance was clearly demonstrated.
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