Kidney trouble on CEE (Creatine Ethyl Ester)

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    Of course what someone decides to put in their own body is their own perogative, but why use CEE at all if the substance has been proven neither safe nor effective? After researching it a bit I feel kind of like a dope for just aimlessly following the crowd. I thought I was already careful, but I think I'll be even more judicious in my supplement use in the future.

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    Pardon my ignorance but what form of creatine is Pump Juice?
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    It's kre-alkalyn. http://www.kre-alkalyn.net/
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocyeoman
    Of course what someone decides to put in their own body is their own perogative, but why use CEE at all if the substance has been proven neither safe nor effective?
    I'd say that CEE has been effective for me in the lower doses. At full doses of BSN Cellmass or Muscletech CEE though, I tend to get headaches during workouts. Otherwise, I think CEE is a good muscle volumizer that is good for hypertrophy IMO. And looking at the various forums, CEE is one of those supps that most everyone feels positively about. This thread is one of the rarer reports I've seen discussing problems with CEE.
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    Earlier this week I ordered a bottle of the All American EFX liquid kre-alkalyn creatine, lemon flavored. I will let you know how it works.

    Im also starting doggcrapp training. Im very excited!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubliminalX
    I'd say that CEE has been effective for me in the lower doses. At full doses of BSN Cellmass or Muscletech CEE though, I tend to get headaches during workouts. Otherwise, I think CEE is a good muscle volumizer that is good for hypertrophy IMO. And looking at the various forums, CEE is one of those supps that most everyone feels positively about. This thread is one of the rarer reports I've seen discussing problems with CEE.
    You are right. I misspoke somewhat. What I meant to say was that it hasn't been as proven effective as regular old monohydrate which is generally accepted to be safe. I had pretty good results with CEE myself besides the pain and discomfort that has recently arisen. I hadn't taken creatine since high school and forgot how beneficial it could be.

    However, I know there is a lot of difference on opinion on this, but I've interpreted the various analyses of CEE by various groups mean that CEE is just impure (i.e., filled with creatinine) creatine monohydrate. Obviously this could still give you results. Aside from the kre-alkalyn website which although poses a compelling argument obviously has a commercial interest in bashing CEE, the "Clayton South Health Facts" section of bodybuilding .com has some damning analyses of CEE as well. It's somewhat ironic because the article tries to sell CEE by strongly asserting its legitamacy and amazingness and then offers links to COAs to prove the point. However, the COAs actually say that the CEE product is simply monohydrate plus creatinine. Here is the most damning report: http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/ceereport_part2b.jpg
    Here are all the third party reports: Bodybuilding.com - Is CEE fake?

    Like I said earlier, there is other stuff on the FDA website and google scholar that gives me further pause on CEE. I respect the fact that people like it. I liked it too. I just choose now to believe that it isn't what it's cracked up to be.
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    there's some real informative stuff here on this thread, very positive
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    I am thinking about ditching my CEE as well. Good post. Only bought 200 grams so no big deal.
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    Or, people could take smaller doses of the stuff (90% monohydrate, 10% CEE).
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeahright
    Or, people could take smaller doses of the stuff (90% monohydrate, 10% CEE).
    That's a possibility. BSN has an OK rep, and I would think that their stuff contains near 100% of the reported amount of CEE. But it's possible that Cellmass is impure, and my concentration of CEE has been much lower than I thought. This is one reasonable explaination for my normal serum creatinine levels.

    I'm switching over to DS Exceed, which has a CofA that confirms 100% of the reported CEE content. I'm gonna go light on the stuff, like 1g ED or EOD. But at the same time, because of the purity, there may be very little to no creatinine in it.
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    Just another thing to think about. I'm assuming creatine also causes water retention in heart muscle, possibly leading to enlargement over long term use. There hasn't been any evidence of enlargement for me, as I did get things checked out recently. But my resting heart rate is a little on the high side for an athlete, like 78-90 bpm. Then again, I think it's also congenital since I don't ever recall me ever having a rate of lower than 70s.
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    I am shopping for suppliments now and this has been very heplfull for me to come to a conclusion on what I should and shouldn't purchase. Thanx
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    I just had work done as well and my Creatinine was 1.5. I take about 6 grams per day of CEE which I capsule myself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Override
    I am shopping for suppliments now and this has been very heplfull for me to come to a conclusion on what I should and shouldn't purchase. Thanx
    Welcome to anabolic minds.
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    Thanks, I'm glad I stumbled across these forums. I'll be a member for life.
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    Nice Thread and very informative. I've been using CNW's bulk cee on and off with no problems as of late. I need to go get work done, but I've usually just stayed on a month and got off for a 2 weeks to a month. As far as results compared to mono, I beleive they are the same, I just have more vascularity on cee than I do mono. Water intake is always high(at least 1.5gallons) when using creatine. But like I said, maye I need to go get some BW done.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubliminalX
    Just another thing to think about. I'm assuming creatine also causes water retention in heart muscle, possibly leading to enlargement over long term use. There hasn't been any evidence of enlargement for me, as I did get things checked out recently. But my resting heart rate is a little on the high side for an athlete, like 78-90 bpm. Then again, I think it's also congenital since I don't ever recall me ever having a rate of lower than 70s.
    I'm fairly certain that creatine supplementation has no detrimental effect on cardiac muscle. That's kind of been a bogey man for a while that people are still using to scare kids away from the stuff. Some time ago a friend pointed me to a study on that very subject. I can't find it right now, but it's definitely out there. I'll post it if I find it.

    Also, do be careful of these various COAs. I'm no expert (so if someone knows better please do tell), but if you read them closely it seems that even those that test out at 99.9% don't prove much. As I understand, most of the tests I've seen are of the format: assume white powder is CEE, test how predominant said white powder is in packaged substance, i.e, whether the product been cut. So the missing part of the puzzle is obviously the identity of the white powder. It could be pure creatinine, a creatine monohydrate/creatinine mixture, or just baking soda. I mean, that third party spectrum analysis posted on bodybuilding.com was pretty straight forward in its conclusion: "After carefully reviewing every creatine ethyl ester available on the market place the following results were found: A) All are regular creatine monohydrate mixed with an acid or without"
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocyeoman
    I'm fairly certain that creatine supplementation has no detrimental effect on cardiac muscle. That's kind of been a bogey man for a while that people are still using to scare kids away from the stuff. Some time ago a friend pointed me to a study on that very subject. I can't find it right now, but it's definitely out there. I'll post it if I find it.

    Also, do be careful of these various COAs. I'm no expert (so if someone knows better please do tell), but if you read them closely it seems that even those that test out at 99.9% don't prove much. As I understand, most of the tests I've seen are of the format: assume white powder is CEE, test how predominant said white powder is in packaged substance, i.e, whether the product been cut. So the missing part of the puzzle is obviously the identity of the white powder. It could be pure creatinine, a creatine monohydrate/creatinine mixture, or just baking soda. I mean, that third party spectrum analysis posted on bodybuilding.com was pretty straight forward in its conclusion: "After carefully reviewing every creatine ethyl ester available on the market place the following results were found: A) All are regular creatine monohydrate mixed with an acid or without"
    Wow, so you're saying there is no such thing as creatine ethyl ester on the market now? Just creatine mono + extras?
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    Yep. That's what the analysis I posted earlier said. Mind you, that came from the bodybuilding.com page for CEE, a page set up to prove the legitamacy of CEE. They hyped up the analysis as irrefutable proof of CEE's legitamacy from an unbiased, third-party, source. The author came across as so confident, as if he was daring you to click the link to the analyses. It looks like they didn't expect anyone to actually do so. Check it out for yourself in my earlier post.
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    Also, here is a link to a paper published in the 50s that calls into question the validity/legitamacy of the esterfied version of creatine (CEE). Their conclusion is in agreement with the spectrum analysis posted on bodybuilding. com, that CEE is mostly creatinine. It also states that CEE was supposedly created by adding hydrochloric acid to creatine monohydrate. This is interesting because the spectrum analysis I previously posted states that many CEE products are just monohydrate with an acid added. So to sum up this paper, CEE is bogus and has been for a long time.

    Digging on search engines, it looks like there is really no hard evidence supporting CEE beyond anecdotal experience. If someone knows any different please feel free to chime in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocyeoman
    Also, here is a link to a paper published in the 50s that calls into question the validity/legitamacy of the esterfied version of creatine (CEE). Their conclusion is in agreement with the spectrum analysis posted on bodybuilding. com, that CEE is mostly creatinine. It also states that CEE was supposedly created by adding hydrochloric acid to creatine monohydrate. This is interesting because the spectrum analysis I previously posted states that many CEE products are just monohydrate with an acid added. So to sum up this paper, CEE is bogus and has been for a long time.

    Digging on search engines, it looks like there is really no hard evidence supporting CEE beyond anecdotal experience. If someone knows any different please feel free to chime in.
    man, you really been doin some investigating into CEE, thats some interesting sh*t!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocyeoman
    Also, here is a link to a paper published in the 50s that calls into question the validity/legitamacy of the esterfied version of creatine (CEE). Their conclusion is in agreement with the spectrum analysis posted on bodybuilding. com, that CEE is mostly creatinine. It also states that CEE was supposedly created by adding hydrochloric acid to creatine monohydrate. This is interesting because the spectrum analysis I previously posted states that many CEE products are just monohydrate with an acid added. So to sum up this paper, CEE is bogus and has been for a long time.

    Digging on search engines, it looks like there is really no hard evidence supporting CEE beyond anecdotal experience. If someone knows any different please feel free to chime in.
    Wow, that is quite a revealing paper. Being that CEE appears so labile, my guess is that users must really be reporting the effects of just good old creatine mono. Nice find.
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    Quote Originally Posted by workin2005
    It was swollen...the way kidneys [start] to get when you start feeling that pain most think is lower back pain. Most people just dont get a sonogram done to see how much it swelled up. That said....you make a good point.
    So from what you're saying, lower back tightness is a sign of kidney irregularity?

    I started back on my CEE again after a good year off from it and instantly my lower back becomes tight. The reason i switched over to CEE in the first place after bulk mono is because mono did nothing for me. [The last time i cycled CEE, after about 2 weeks i started becoming EXTREMELY tired all day even with good water consumption.]

    I'm using the bulk cee from giant. They have a CofA up on their site that states 100% cee.

    Has anyone else noticed a strong diuretic effect while on the cee?

    Edit: Actually going back to a conversation i had with PA over at bb.com in January, the CofA posted on their site for the cee should really read 99%.

    He had also stated CEE breaks down over time, so the true percentage is anywhere between 95% to 98%.
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    Count me in too. I had been using BN CEE for some time. I went in for some pre-surgery bloodwork and was called in to the Dr. to discuss the results of my renal functions which the results were elevated creatinine levels/abnormal kidney functions. The Dr. was very puzzled and advised me to up my water intake, which I already drink over a gallon a day. I have discontinued use and will go back in a month or two and get retested.
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    kind of OT but not really. Back a few years ago when I was into some "other" supplements of the fun kind (think stimulating/happy) I had some crazy kidney problems at towards the latter end of usage. I know how it can feel but I had no idea my bulk CEE that's sitting there could be doing damage too.
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    What sort of differences have people noticed once they stopped taking CEE? Of course the big one for me was the disapearance of any pain or discomfort in my sides or lower back. But I also have noticed a marked decrease in the retention of water. That is, I have noticibly more definition. So much so that my girlfriend has commented. I didn't realize it was happening while I was taking the stuff, but CEE has to have been the culprit. Regular old mono does the same thing to me, so this too makes me doubt that CEE is really any different than mono. I plan on trying a bufferred product tomorrow to see if there is any difference with that.
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    Very informative thread, I've tried many different brands of CEE, and got nothing from them (slight increase in strength but not enough to dertemine if it was CEE or just diet), but got good results from mono. I could never understand why I would be a responder to mono but not CEE. This thread sheds some light on this.
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    Bruhs,
    Good work...this thread is VERY interesting and informative. I feel so enlightened.

    I do have an interesting comment though. When I was taking CEE, or what I thought was CEE, I had waaaayyyy less water retention and much more vascularity than with C Mono...so what else could the extras be to produce this. I did notice the diuretic effect when I came off CEE but then again it didn't make me hold that much water to begin with.

    I'm confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by anabolik1
    Bruhs,
    Good work...this thread is VERY interesting and informative. I feel so enlightened.

    I do have an interesting comment though. When I was taking CEE, or what I thought was CEE, I had waaaayyyy less water retention and much more vascularity than with C Mono...so what else could the extras be to produce this. I did notice the diuretic effect when I came off CEE but then again it didn't make me hold that much water to begin with.

    I'm confused
    Good question...bump for an answer!
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    Quote Originally Posted by anabolik1
    Bruhs,
    Good work...this thread is VERY interesting and informative. I feel so enlightened.

    I do have an interesting comment though. When I was taking CEE, or what I thought was CEE, I had waaaayyyy less water retention and much more vascularity than with C Mono...so what else could the extras be to produce this. I did notice the diuretic effect when I came off CEE but then again it didn't make me hold that much water to begin with.

    I'm confused
    Just a shot in the dark, but could it be because you took less CEE than you did of mono?

    Edit: I just wanted to explain the thought behind this theory. Granted, I'm not a biologist or chemist, but I'm working through this logically, so bear with me. Please feel free to correct me where I'm mistaken. We've all heard that of the creatine we ingest very little gets absorbed. Also, it's been said that creatine side effects are caused by the unabsorbed or unutilized creatine. Thus, if we are taking in more creatine we can expect more unabsorbed creatine in our system thus causing more sides.

    I experienced this myself with CEE. I was doing totally fine with no pain in my lower back or sides when I was only taking 3 grams a day. When I upped it to 6 is when I started having trouble. I'm also assuming that's when I started blowing up like a water balloon. Against my better judgement, today I started a pure kre alkalyn product. We'll see how that goes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocyeoman
    Just a shot in the dark, but could it be because you took less CEE than you did of mono?

    Edit: I just wanted to explain the thought behind this theory. Granted, I'm not a biologist or chemist, but I'm working through this logically, so bear with me. Please feel free to correct me where I'm mistaken. We've all heard that of the creatine we ingest very little gets absorbed. Also, it's been said that creatine side effects are caused by the unabsorbed or unutilized creatine. Thus, if we are taking in more creatine we can expect more unabsorbed creatine in our system thus causing more sides.

    I experienced this myself with CEE. I was doing totally fine with no pain in my lower back or sides when I was only taking 3 grams a day. When I upped it to 6 is when I started having trouble. I'm also assuming that's when I started blowing up like a water balloon. Against my better judgement, today I started a pure kre alkalyn product. We'll see how that goes.
    Yeah, I take low doses of CEE because at higher doses I got headaches as I mentioned above. I've never felt bloated or even less defined at my current dosage. Actually, when I started CEE last year, first thing I noticed was increased vacularity when I got a little pump going during workouts. I figured it was water retention INSIDE the skeletal muscle, which pushed the veins out against the underside of the skin.

    So IMO, the take home message is be very conservative with creatine use in general.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubliminalX
    So IMO, the take home message is be very conservative with creatine use in general.

    I agree wholeheartedly. Save your organs and save a few bucks in the process.
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    I been on creatine off and on about 9 yrs. now.I switch to cee for about a week and thats when all the problems started for me at least that my guess .I wonder if all thoses years of prior uset had anything to do it?I'm amazed at the amount of people having the small problems.I got my final test results back aswell after a **** load of test and my levels was 1.2 but was without working out and cutting my protein down to 100 grams and driving about a less than a gallon of water a day.Who knew that this would be so tough on the body i always assume creatine was safe!I know now it does causes some people problems including me.I wonder what the pro's creatinine levels at because my Dr. mention the more muscle the higher the creatinine in body and if mine on avg. is about 1.4 and 1.6 i assume their would a few points high?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocyeoman
    I experienced this myself with CEE. I was doing totally fine with no pain in my lower back or sides when I was only taking 3 grams a day. When I upped it to 6 is when I started having trouble. I'm also assuming that's when I started blowing up like a water balloon. Against my better judgement, today I started a pure kre alkalyn product. We'll see how that goes.
    Funny thing is yesturday was my second day of the cycle at 2.5g ED of cee. I started feeling the symptoms on day one, but really started feeling the kidney pressure on day two. Then again i seem to be more sensitive to supplements, always having to dose at a lower dose then what's recommended. I too never felt the problems on regular mono, but regular mono never really did anything for me at 10g's ED besides giving me stomach cramps.

    Even after only two days of CEE i definitely notice the vascularity difference between being on it and not. But my kidney is numero uno so no more CEE for me. Great discussion.
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    Anyone have any thoughts on the safety of CEO (used in MAN's Orotine or Nutrabolic's Full Throttle)?

    I ask because this is also another form of Creatine that has not been available for a long period of time yet..

    If the consensus is to be wary of all creatine consumption, then I guess it would only make sense that CEO would be right along side of CEE and mono in terms of safety..

    One more question, how often do you guys cycle the various forms of creatine?

    Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beneath_the_Sea

    One more question, how often do you guys cycle the various forms of creatine?

    Thanks
    I consider creatine to be a basic supp, so I haven't been off at all for over 1 year (CEE) except for some rest days here and there. I just keep the doses low. Remember, creatine is found in meats so it's not an unnatural compound. Much in the same way you wouldn't take in 1000 grams of protein per day, I wouldn't ingest more than 2-3 grams of CEE per day on average. I've actually been lowering it down to 0.5-1 gram per day since I started EXCEED. All I'm shooting for is higher than "average" creatine intake to optimize natural growth and endurance, all the while not trying to throw my system too far off its baseline chemistry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubliminalX
    I consider creatine to be a basic supp, so I haven't been off at all for over 1 year (CEE) except for some rest days here and there. I just keep the doses low. Remember, creatine is found in meats so it's not an unnatural compound. Much in the same way you wouldn't take in 1000 grams of protein per day, I wouldn't ingest more than 2-3 grams of CEE per day on average. I've actually been lowering it down to 0.5-1 gram per day since I started EXCEED. All I'm shooting for is higher than "average" creatine intake to optimize natural growth and endurance, all the while not trying to throw my system too far off its baseline chemistry.
    YEP, I've always squirmed when reading about people taking 10 grams of creatine a day. The difference between a supplement and a poison is in the size of the dose.
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    hmmm interesting read. I always cycle my creatine anyway. I go on for two months and then off for two.
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    Great discussion guys!
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    Quote Originally Posted by workin2005
    Great discussion guys!
    you started a great thread bro, any developments on your results?
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