Kidney trouble on CEE (Creatine Ethyl Ester)
- 05-31-2006, 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by andhen2003
I won't be using CEE anymore, but the jury is still out on the other forms of creatine. One thing is for sure though, my water intake will be increased by 1.5 gallons per day if I do decide to use other forms of creatine.
I'll let you know what my blood test results are as soon as I get them...
- 06-15-2006, 07:34 PM
Well I received my results. My creatinine level was 1.4 on Pump Juice so I guess CEE is harder on ones kidneys.
- 06-15-2006, 08:25 PM
I too have been experiencing lower back pain and pain on my lower left hand side. I'm only taking CEE right now, so in comparing my experience with others it seems like I'm having some kidney irritation as well. Yes I have been drinking water like a fish too. I thought it might have been a liver problem. I'll discontinue and give it a few days before I call my doc.
Also, as I was googling this earlier, it seems that your average CEE product already contains a good portion of creatinine in the tub. This is according to the kre alkalyn website and the third party analysis posted on bodybuilding. com. Could ingesting so much creatinine straight off the bat be the culprit of these kidney problems?
06-15-2006, 08:31 PM
06-16-2006, 02:29 AM
This is a real eye-opener. I've been on CEE for over 1 year now, although I typically keep it to within 1-3 grams per day. In checking my recent bloodwork, my creatinine is 1.1-1.2 mg/dl.
06-16-2006, 04:09 AM
hmmm thats very interestingOriginally Posted by SubliminalX
it would be nice to see more blood work from other people
06-16-2006, 03:38 PM
I found this study while snooping around the FDA website: http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/doc...-06-vol181.pdf
It details a study in which five subjects were administered 5g of CEE a day. Of the five one developed higher than acceptable serum creatinine levels of 1.7 mg/dl. Not extraordinarily high, but it does give one pause. If an adverse effect occurred in such a small sample size what does that say of the population at large? What would happen with a much larger sample size? I think we are seeing the effects.
There seems to be a lot on the FDA website about CEE. Have a look see if interested. A few papers present data that cast aspersion on the stuff. I won't go there because it is off topic and sure to spark a flame, but much of the data suggests that is at best just crappy monohydrate or at worst mostly ineffective. A total bummer for me. I just bought a kilo in bulk. I guess I'll be tossing it.
06-16-2006, 03:52 PM
It's great to see a board like this that is so helpful and allows others to learn and benifit from mistakes and successes we have all experinced. Thanks for all the great responses! I will be sticking to Creatines like "Pump Juice" from here on out as I like my kidneys.
06-16-2006, 03:57 PM
Yeah, dude. I'm thankful too. I plan on switching to a product like Pump Juice too. I have some confidence in that stuff since it doesn't convert to creatinine. At least you just excrete excess creatine. I believe Pump Juice is pretty similar to Get Diesel and I hear great things about that. I may give it a shot.Originally Posted by workin2005
06-16-2006, 04:05 PM
I think if you are going to use CEE, then you are better off using it for short periods of time(1 month) then take some time off. There is not any evidence to support year round usage of CEE without health effects.
Renal issues should always be taken seriously.
06-16-2006, 04:18 PM
Of course what someone decides to put in their own body is their own perogative, but why use CEE at all if the substance has been proven neither safe nor effective? After researching it a bit I feel kind of like a dope for just aimlessly following the crowd. I thought I was already careful, but I think I'll be even more judicious in my supplement use in the future.
06-16-2006, 04:21 PM
06-16-2006, 05:23 PM
06-16-2006, 06:55 PM
I'd say that CEE has been effective for me in the lower doses. At full doses of BSN Cellmass or Muscletech CEE though, I tend to get headaches during workouts. Otherwise, I think CEE is a good muscle volumizer that is good for hypertrophy IMO. And looking at the various forums, CEE is one of those supps that most everyone feels positively about. This thread is one of the rarer reports I've seen discussing problems with CEE.Originally Posted by ocyeoman
06-16-2006, 07:19 PM
Earlier this week I ordered a bottle of the All American EFX liquid kre-alkalyn creatine, lemon flavored. I will let you know how it works.
Im also starting doggcrapp training. Im very excited!
06-16-2006, 07:22 PM
You are right. I misspoke somewhat. What I meant to say was that it hasn't been as proven effective as regular old monohydrate which is generally accepted to be safe. I had pretty good results with CEE myself besides the pain and discomfort that has recently arisen. I hadn't taken creatine since high school and forgot how beneficial it could be.Originally Posted by SubliminalX
However, I know there is a lot of difference on opinion on this, but I've interpreted the various analyses of CEE by various groups mean that CEE is just impure (i.e., filled with creatinine) creatine monohydrate. Obviously this could still give you results. Aside from the kre-alkalyn website which although poses a compelling argument obviously has a commercial interest in bashing CEE, the "Clayton South Health Facts" section of bodybuilding .com has some damning analyses of CEE as well. It's somewhat ironic because the article tries to sell CEE by strongly asserting its legitamacy and amazingness and then offers links to COAs to prove the point. However, the COAs actually say that the CEE product is simply monohydrate plus creatinine. Here is the most damning report: http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/ceereport_part2b.jpg
Here are all the third party reports: Bodybuilding.com - Is CEE fake?
Like I said earlier, there is other stuff on the FDA website and google scholar that gives me further pause on CEE. I respect the fact that people like it. I liked it too. I just choose now to believe that it isn't what it's cracked up to be.
06-16-2006, 10:07 PM
06-17-2006, 09:57 PM
06-18-2006, 12:17 AM
06-18-2006, 02:36 PM
That's a possibility. BSN has an OK rep, and I would think that their stuff contains near 100% of the reported amount of CEE. But it's possible that Cellmass is impure, and my concentration of CEE has been much lower than I thought. This is one reasonable explaination for my normal serum creatinine levels.Originally Posted by yeahright
I'm switching over to DS Exceed, which has a CofA that confirms 100% of the reported CEE content. I'm gonna go light on the stuff, like 1g ED or EOD. But at the same time, because of the purity, there may be very little to no creatinine in it.
06-18-2006, 02:48 PM
Just another thing to think about. I'm assuming creatine also causes water retention in heart muscle, possibly leading to enlargement over long term use. There hasn't been any evidence of enlargement for me, as I did get things checked out recently. But my resting heart rate is a little on the high side for an athlete, like 78-90 bpm. Then again, I think it's also congenital since I don't ever recall me ever having a rate of lower than 70s.
06-18-2006, 03:32 PM
I am shopping for suppliments now and this has been very heplfull for me to come to a conclusion on what I should and shouldn't purchase. Thanx
06-18-2006, 04:12 PM
I just had work done as well and my Creatinine was 1.5. I take about 6 grams per day of CEE which I capsule myself.
06-18-2006, 04:14 PM
06-18-2006, 05:57 PM
06-18-2006, 06:34 PM
Nice Thread and very informative. I've been using CNW's bulk cee on and off with no problems as of late. I need to go get work done, but I've usually just stayed on a month and got off for a 2 weeks to a month. As far as results compared to mono, I beleive they are the same, I just have more vascularity on cee than I do mono. Water intake is always high(at least 1.5gallons) when using creatine. But like I said, maye I need to go get some BW done.
06-19-2006, 01:55 PM
I'm fairly certain that creatine supplementation has no detrimental effect on cardiac muscle. That's kind of been a bogey man for a while that people are still using to scare kids away from the stuff. Some time ago a friend pointed me to a study on that very subject. I can't find it right now, but it's definitely out there. I'll post it if I find it.Originally Posted by SubliminalX
Also, do be careful of these various COAs. I'm no expert (so if someone knows better please do tell), but if you read them closely it seems that even those that test out at 99.9% don't prove much. As I understand, most of the tests I've seen are of the format: assume white powder is CEE, test how predominant said white powder is in packaged substance, i.e, whether the product been cut. So the missing part of the puzzle is obviously the identity of the white powder. It could be pure creatinine, a creatine monohydrate/creatinine mixture, or just baking soda. I mean, that third party spectrum analysis posted on bodybuilding.com was pretty straight forward in its conclusion: "After carefully reviewing every creatine ethyl ester available on the market place the following results were found: A) All are regular creatine monohydrate mixed with an acid or without"
06-19-2006, 05:09 PM
Wow, so you're saying there is no such thing as creatine ethyl ester on the market now? Just creatine mono + extras?Originally Posted by ocyeoman
06-19-2006, 07:43 PM
Yep. That's what the analysis I posted earlier said. Mind you, that came from the bodybuilding.com page for CEE, a page set up to prove the legitamacy of CEE. They hyped up the analysis as irrefutable proof of CEE's legitamacy from an unbiased, third-party, source. The author came across as so confident, as if he was daring you to click the link to the analyses. It looks like they didn't expect anyone to actually do so. Check it out for yourself in my earlier post.
06-19-2006, 07:51 PM
Also, here is a link to a paper published in the 50s that calls into question the validity/legitamacy of the esterfied version of creatine (CEE). Their conclusion is in agreement with the spectrum analysis posted on bodybuilding. com, that CEE is mostly creatinine. It also states that CEE was supposedly created by adding hydrochloric acid to creatine monohydrate. This is interesting because the spectrum analysis I previously posted states that many CEE products are just monohydrate with an acid added. So to sum up this paper, CEE is bogus and has been for a long time.
Digging on search engines, it looks like there is really no hard evidence supporting CEE beyond anecdotal experience. If someone knows any different please feel free to chime in.
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