PCT help from those who know for those in need

[Grrr]

hello guys. I am a 23/m @172lbs. with no medical history

i was hoping to get some proper direction regarding superdrol/pheraplex pct.
i ran an sd cycle at 20,20,30,30 and used t-drive as a pct 3x daily and got a mild case of gyno.
i am now, i feel, more aware that pct is extremely important since i may be prone to gyno sides.

i was hoping for a little help with pct precautions.
i will not go for it again untill i am prepared with all necessary pct on hand.
any input is appreciated. I currently have Nolva, Retain, and Rebound xt.
I am afraid to combine too many anti-est. products for fear of a estrogen rebound after pct.
please help with necessary products and dosing info.

Thanks Anabolic Minds, You Saved Me From Gyno!!!

 

[B5150]

please help with necessary products and dosing info.

That is not what you need.

You need to do a whole lot of research on what steroids do to your body and what you need to do to recover.

HPTA is a key word for you to learn, and this is your homework assignment. Let us know when you know what HPTA is and how it effects you and your body.

 

[jonny21]

I don't know how the Homosexual Parent Teacher Association can help him out.

 

[Grrr]

Thanks B. Ill do it and post back.

 

[anabolicrhino]

I don't know how the Homosexual Parent Teacher Association can help him out.

They can't but, we can all learn from;

Hrsuit Personal Trainers of America

 

[TKE-PBOY]

Grrr, here is a hint for you: HPTA has to do with a gland located inferior of the brain. It releases GnRH (LH releasing hormone)

 

[Grrr]

B5150,I did what you asked. heres what ive found in my own words....

I found out that HPTA is the hypothalmic, pituitary, testicular axis. the hypothalamus is the chief in charge of regulating hormonal distribution, and androgen/estrogen levels throughout the body. it communicates via GnRH with the pituitary gland which kicks out two other hormones, LH and FSH which communicates with the testes. more specifically the Leydig cells and Sertoli cells, which encourages test synthesis and sperm production respectively.

When there is too many androgens in the blood stream, aromatization (conversion from and. to est.) goes up and results in an excess of estrogen. similarly, since there is an over abundance of androgen being provided by whatever supplements are on board, the hypothalamus compensates with more estrogen, and less natural androgen production to keep the scales even. this results in more estrogen than androgen which is very very bad. Am i getting this right B5150? I hope im not terribly off the beam. What should I be thinking about now? whats my next piece of homework?

- Grrr

PS is it alright to take rebound xt with nolva to combat minor post cycle gyno? (puffy nipples and a small lump). a friend of mine said it might not be ok to combine the two.

 

[B5150]

Outstanding effort and good response. You have a good portion of it covered. Keep in mind that not all androgens aromatize, but they will supress natural production. You have established that there can be an increase of estrogen either via aromatization and or reduced natural androgen production. Consider now...what happens when we end a cycle in that state. What do we want to do about the possible excessive estrogen and what about that reduced production of natural androgens. What do we want to do to which and in what order or prioroty when we consider LBM retention in the process of PCT? Don't answer too quickly...think about what is going on in your body and what you need to do to keep your gains.


While you are at it:
The next assignment is defining the acronym SERM and what impact does it have on our bodies.

 

[jonny21]

While you are at it:
The next assignment is defining the acronym SERM and what impact does it have on our bodies.

:toofunny:

PCT 101 in progress.

 

[Grrr]

i will send out a reply tonite. thanks B.
what about the nolva and rebound together? i dont want to mess myself up, but i want to try to get rid of these gyno sides. its week two on nolva, and my projected doses are 60/40/20/20. is this ok? can i introduce rebound into this someplace to help? thanks for everything

 

[Grrr]

Thanks B. Here we go. Again this is all in my own words because Im trying to understand what ive read.

in response to the first question:
When we cycle in a state of supplemented androgens, the body kicks out estrogen to keep balance, and stops producing its own androgens/testosterone. When the supplements are discontinued, the natural sites of androgen production are still shut down because the hypothalamus thinks that since test levels are so high, the body doesnt need to make its own test. Now, we have no natural testosterone, an abundance of estrogen from the bodies compensation efforts, and a possibility of aromatization of the remaining androgens, resulting in more estrogen. so now our bodies try to respond by kicking up the natural testosterone but cant. So estrogen takes over while the body tries to resume natural test production. this can take weeks.
-IN SHORT, POST-CYCLE WE FIRST WANT TO BLOCK EXCESS ESTROGEN TO PREVENT WATER RETENTION AND POSSIBLE TITS WHILE OUR TEST LEVELS ARE SO LOW. THIS WILL KEEP MUSCLE MASS AND STRENGTH IN CHECK.
-THEN WE NEED TO INCREASE NON-AROMATIZABLE ANDROGENS TO BRING BACK THE BALANCE AND STOP OUR BODIES FROM OVERLOADING US WITH ESTROGEN. Right?

Second question: SERMS
SERMS are selective estrogen receptor modulators which block estrogen receptor sites in the breast. SERMS fill the cell and prevent the estrogen from entering the cell body to tell it to grow and spread (ie, make breasts.) So PCT involving SERMS is useful in prevention of gynecomastia because it will block major estrogen receptor sites within the recovering individual until the estrogen levels are lowered. correct?

I hope im not totally botching this one B. Please correct me if I am. And if its not too much trouble, please give me some advice on a possible Nolva and rebound xt dosing regiment. Im ready for my next assignment.
-Grrr

 

[RenegadeRows]

Subscribed! :clap2:

 

[natedogg]

Here's another assignment. Learn how to use the search button and read through some pointless posts in order to find what you're looking for.

This thread for example will answer all of your questions and then some. I suggest you read over it.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/37790-running-serm-inverse-adt.html

 

[Grrr]

thanks nate.
This is what i gathered from another thread. feed back anyone?
Please no advice from those as lost as me.

Rebound should be used in the am and midday while nolva is at night right?
and they should taper inversely then right?
Nolva: 60/40/20/20
Rebound:0/25/50/75
right?

why the inverse taper, and why the sudden stop off the high dose of rebound?
-Thanks Everyone!

 

[B5150]

Here's another assignment. Learn how to use the search button and read through some pointless posts in order to find what you're looking for.

This thread for example will answer all of your questions and then some. I suggest you read over it.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/37790-running-serm-inverse-adt.html

Grrr,

nate has nailed a very good point. There a worthless posts at about a 10:1 ratio on this board. This is all due to these 'newbies who are just asking a simple question' which is usually way off topic or completely ignorant. This is why you need to READ, READ, READ every single post in every single thread to get to the meat and potatos of the matter.

 

[natedogg]

There a worthless posts at about a 10:1 ratio on this board.

No kidding right. Sometimes I think stickying certain posts is ideal. Then again you would have pages of sticky's. Most people think their question is unique to them when in fact the same exact question has been asked 20 times before. What it comes down to is solid research when particular questions arise because the answers are there. This paired with a little bit of patience and I guarantee you'll find what you're looking for.

 

[Grrr]

Thanks B amd Nate. I just did. I had actually read it before, but was too much of an ignorant newbie to understand =). Plus it took me some time to find the posts worth reading.

Now I see that AI is pointless after just coming off a cycle because there is very little estrogen to aromatize. SERM/Nolva is used to block out the gyno effects. but as the body makes more test, it will make more estrogen too. so NOW there is a need for an AI to prevent androgen to estrogen conversion untill the body can stabilize. I feel like im starting to get it. Please let me know if im off track or not. Whats Next?

My chest looks normal today! There is no lump sensitivity and its shrinking (does a little dance)!! second week on nolva and i introduced rebound this morning. it will look like this comparatively:

wk 1=nolva 60 ml
wk 2=nolva 40 ml (night) Rebound xt 50mg (25 AM, 25 afternoon)
wk 3=nolva 40ml Rebound xt 75mg (50 AM, 25 afternoon)
wk 4=nolva 20ml rebound xt 75mg

*should the nolva be stepping down the 3rd week?*

Thanks Guys.

 

[B5150]

but as the body makes more test, it will make more estrogen too. so NOW there is a need for an AI to prevent androgen to estrogen conversion untill the body can stabilize.

but if you keep hindering stabilization with supplementation how do you get stabilized?

wk 1=nolva 60 ml
wk 2=nolva 40 ml (night) Rebound xt 50mg (25 AM, 25 afternoon)
wk 3=nolva 40ml Rebound xt 75mg (50 AM, 25 afternoon)
wk 4= nolva 20ml rebound xt 75mg
*should the nolva be stepping down the 3rd week?*

Thanks Guys.

That is a hefty dose of Nolva. You could/should run at most 40,20,20,20.

BTW, I must emphasize for you that for many many years AAS users had nolva and clomic and none of these other OTC supplements. How in the world did we get by without all of this confusion?

 

[Grrr]

B, your question was...
"but if you keep hindering stabilization with supplementation how do you get stabilized?" - B5150

I dont know. (hangs head). How?
Wait a minute...is the answer Rest? Equal Time off ALL supplements?

I know the nolva dose was high my first week, but i was advised to take it in hefty amounts to combat gyno signs. for the first week. im down to 40 now on week 2, with the rebound on board. should my 3rd and 4th week be 20/20 with the rebound staying at 75?

You guys are saints. Ill try to pay it all forward when some other rookie starts jamming up the boards with silly questions. Thanks. Ready for my next assignment sir. *Salutes*
-Grrr

 

[B5150]

but as the body makes more test, it will make more estrogen too. so NOW there is a need for an AI to prevent androgen to estrogen conversion untill the body can stabilize.

but if you keep hindering stabilization with supplementation how do you get stabilized?

Your missing something. Just allow one (in this case a SERM) to do its job.

SERM: "Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes." ~ Clomid, Nolvadex, and Testosterone Stimulation by William Llewellyn

 

[ryansm]

Good thread, I am glad to see a new member take the advice given and use it instead of whining and complaining.

Also Grrr, you may want to look at other hormones that are of concern in pct, namely cortisol.

 

[jonny21]

This should probably get stickied after Grrr does all his homework

By the way Grrr, rep points for you. Thanks for putting in the time and posting the info you find.

 

[Grrr]

Good thread, I am glad to see a new member take the advice given and use it instead of whining and complaining.

Also Grrr, you may want to look at other hormones that are of concern in pct, namely cortisol.

as far as cortisol goes, i understand its higher at night. So I am taking retain at 100mgs daily (2 tabs. retain at night with my full dose of nolva) see any holes in this?

thanks johnny. =)

 

[Grrr]

Your missing something. Just allow one (in this case a SERM) to do its job.

SERM: "Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes." ~ Clomid, Nolvadex, and Testosterone Stimulation by William Llewellyn

I think you lost me here. so the body will stabilize with the use of SERMS?

 

[TKE-PBOY]

Excellent thread. I like the way this is going. I think that when you are forced to read and research you learn a lot more than when you just sit and wait for the answers to come to you.

 

[TKE-PBOY]

This should probably get stickied after Grrr does all his homework

By the way Grrr, rep points for you. Thanks for putting in the time and posting the info you find.

Bump that.

 

[jonny21]

I think you lost me here. so the body will stabilize with the use of SERMS?

Give the man a prize.

The idea is to jumpstart Test production, or at least give it a healthy nudge.

 

[B5150]

Read again what it said.

both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes."

It is simultainiously stimulating your HPTA (natural test production) and acting as an anti-e. Upon ending your PCT therapy with a SERM, there may be some initial reduction of test that was hyper stimulated by the SERM and some estrogen rebound as the anti-e effects of the SERM are withdrawn. Soon afterward with a healthy diet and training you will be back in *homeostasis

*The ability or tendency of an organism or cell to maintain internal equilibrium by adjusting its physiological processes

 

[Grrr]

Read again what it said.



It is simultainiously stimulating your HPTA (natural test production) and acting as an anti-e. Upon ending your PCT therapy with a SERM, there may be some initial reduction of test that was hyper stimulated by the SERM and some estrogen rebound as the anti-e effects of the SERM are withdrawn. Soon afterward with a healthy diet and training you will be back in *homeostasis

*The ability or tendency of an organism or cell to maintain internal equilibrium by adjusting its physiological processes

Wow B. That afore mentioned article kicks ass! so that is why SERMS at high doses are given initially as PCT and then tapered down. its used to stimulate the hypothalamus and inhibit the negative estrogen feedback loop! Inversely, AI's are used and tapered up to keep the raising estrogen and testosterone levels balanced. Kinda like a set of training wheels untill the body can manage itself, correct?
damn im glad ive got the day off

 

[natedogg]

Good thread indeed. Grrr, you wouldn't happen to be a military man would you?

 

[Grrr]

Not me Nate. It was in the cards but found a different calling. why do you ask?

 

[B5150]

Wow B. That afore mentioned article kicks ass! so that is why SERMS at high doses are given initially as PCT and then tapered down. its used to stimulate the hypothalamus and inhibit the negative estrogen feedback loop!

There is research that suggests more is not better and that a static may be fine. You probaly only need 20mgs but we have grown acustomed to a 40,20,20 taper. Some old school guys don't atper but run a static 20mgs. We don't have data to suppoort what we are doing do we.

Inversely, AI's are used and tapered up to keep the raising estrogen and testosterone levels balanced. Kinda like a set of training wheels untill the body can manage itself, correct?
damn im glad ive got the day off

Here is where there is mixed opinion and views. Estrogen is not harmful to our muscle mass retention. Actually it in anabolic to a degree. Why we want to knock it down when we don't need to is beyond me. We primarily want to restore test product. I believe restored test production will balance out the estrogen. They are a ying and yang...of sorts

 

[natedogg]

Not me Nate. It was in the cards but found a different calling. why do you ask?

Just the whole salute thing in one of your posts. Your signature refering to being outmanned, but never out gunned. Disregard.

So have all your questions been answered?

 

[natedogg]

I noticed when I used Nolva alone that I kept most of the weight, but my strength leveled out. On the other hand, when I used ATD post cycle, I lost half of what I gained, but strength continued to increase. I figure If I use both, I have all bases covered. Just a personal observation.

 

[Grrr]

There is research that suggests more is not better and that a static may be fine. You probaly only need 20mgs but we have grown acustomed to a 40,20,20 taper. Some old school guys don't atper but run a static 20mgs. We don't have data to suppoort what we are doing do we.Here is where there is mixed opinion and views. Estrogen is not harmful to our muscle mass retention. Actually it in anabolic to a degree. Why we want to knock it down when we don't need to is beyond me. We primarily want to restore test product. I believe restored test production will balance out the estrogen. They are a ying and yang...of sorts

Gotcha sensei.
so that being said, what do you think of this for the next 3 weeks?

this week: Rebound 50mg, Nolva 40 mg at nite w/ 100 mg retain
next week:Rebound 75mg, Nolva 20 mg at nite w/ 100 mg retain
final week:Rebound 75mg, Nolva 20 mg at nite w/ 100 mg retain

 

[natedogg]

Gotcha sensei.
so that being said, what do you think of this for the next 3 weeks?

this week: Rebound 50mg, Nolva 40 mg at nite w/ 100 mg retain
next week:Rebound 75mg, Nolva 20 mg at nite w/ 100 mg retain
final week:Rebound 75mg, Nolva 20 mg at nite w/ 100 mg retain

Looks good to me. I'll be doing something similar for my next PCT.

Week 1- Nolva 40mgs/ATD 25mgs
Week 2- Nolva 40mgs/ATD 50mgs
Week 3- Nolva 20mgs/ATD 50mgs
Week 4- Nolva 20mgs/ATD 75mgs

 

[Grrr]

Is rebound xt an AI or ATD? im looking up ATD now and it seems like both ATD's and AI's inhibit aromatizing enzymes which convert some androgens to estrogen. whats the difference?

 

[natedogg]

Is rebound xt an AI or ATD? im looking up ATD now and it seems like both ATD's and AI's inhibit aromatizing enzymes which convert some androgens to estrogen. whats the difference?

Sorry for the confusion. ATD is an acronym for the chemical name 1,4,6-androstatriene-3,17-dione. ATD is an AI. I'll be using the brand name Inhibit-E by SNS if you were wondering.

 

[Grrr]

gotcha. i picked up some fenugreek. where would it fit into a cycle like this?

 

[natedogg]

I'll give you a hint. The answer to that question is in the same thread I gave to you earlier. I think Dr. D goes in depth about how it would fit in.

 

[Grrr]

Nice one. Nate Dogg and B5150 are some enlightened senseis! Anything else I should research B? Nate? that being said, i think ill actually go to the gym. after all, it is shoulders day!
-Grrr

ps ill research fenugreek and add it to a pct protocol and submit it for you guys to chek out later.
thanks for your patience, and for saving me the trouble of having to go bra shopping.

 

[RenegadeRows]

:goodpost: to Grrr.

You seem to have all of the PCT basics covered. My question is, do you know about the support supplements and herbs to keep your organs healthy? J/W.

-RR

 

[B5150]

Grrr,

It is too few and far between that I am able to get some pleasure (well banning SOB's can be fun) helping someone out. Your willingness to learn for yourself is refreshing. One thing I would like to encourage you to do is KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid). Although we made great headway with your understanding, you have a tendency to further complicate matters by wanting to add another variable to the list. KISS!!!

We have successfully PCT'd (and supressed gyno) in the past without all of this other stuff for quite some time.

Here is what I always, always use.
Nolva: 40,20,20,20
FL7 (TD 7-OXO) 100mg/d (ant-cortisol)
That's it. Of source I use extra EFA's, E/C and bump my creatine. But that's it. I do just fine.

I have used DHEA, and will be experimenting with AX's PCT(ATD)

Find out how the BASICS will work for you first. You can always add to it. But if you don't need it they why bother.

You've come a long way

 

[B5150]

:goodpost: to Grrr.

You seem to have all of the PCT basics covered. My question is, do you know about the support supplements and herbs to keep your organs healthy? J/W.

-RR

PLEASE lets just keep this thread on topic. Not trying to be offensive, but just PLEASE

 

[Grrr]

Grrr,

It is too few and far between that I am able to get some pleasure (well banning SOB's can be fun) helping someone out. Your willingness to learn for yourself is refreshing. One thing I would like to encourage you to do is KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid). Although we made great headway with your understanding, you have a tendency to further complicate matters by wanting to add another variable to the list. KISS!!!

We have successfully PCT'd (and supressed gyno) in the past without all of this other stuff for quite some time.

Here is what I always, always use.
Nolva: 40,20,20,20
FL7 (TD 7-OXO) 100mg/d (ant-cortisol)
That's it. Of source I use extra EFA's, E/C and bump my creatine. But that's it. I do just fine.

I have used DHEA, and will be experimenting with AX's PCT(ATD)

Find out how the BASICS will work for you first. You can always add to it. But if you don't need it they why bother.

You've come a long way

Thank you for everything. I feel much better prepared. I will keep the board up to speed with my progresses.
I wont be cycling again for a while. I want to give myself equal time off everything, even PCT. Until then, KISS

-Grrr

 

[Grrr]

I agree. lets keep this about PCT. This thread has helped me alot. I only have one final question regarding PCT. everything seems to taper off eventualy except for the Rebound XT. At the end, the dose seems to be at its highest. When the week is over you just stop taking it? there isnt a crash?

 

[jonny21]

I have yet to find any info that supports the idea of estrogen rebound when using an aromatase inhibitor (AI).

Now that you have the start of a foundation of knowledge add to it. A good idea for you is to search out some articles or posts by someone with the board name Swale. He posts in this forum quite often: http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/

My next PCT I will keep my dose consistent @50mg. And I will taper the SERM per Swale's rec'd.