Need advice on supplements

[xaneimas]

I'm going to run through a quick background which may help on what you recommend. I'm 23 and about 5 10 185 10% body fat. Ive been training off and on since i was in high school but didnt become extremely serious (strict dieting and consistent workouts) until about 7-8 months ago. I am in my opinion an extreme hardgainer as my natural bodyweight is 154. In 4 1/2 months I bulked up 30 lbs while on adding a little over 1% body fat! Since that time I have not been able to put on any weight and my gains have hit a plateau even while changing my routine. I currently eat 5000-5500 calories/day.

I have tried many supplements over the years with little results in my opinion but then again my nutrition wasnt always optimal. Recently I have taken such products as creatine, GAKIC, and nitrobolic (which I am currently taking). I also supplement with glutamine, taurine, arginine, carnosine, pycnogenol and lipoic acid (w/ nitrobolic). Over the past month or so I have been contemplating taking LG's methyl-1-alpha but after having done some searches on this forum i dont feel so enthused about taking this product because of its potential side effects. I noticed ppl were talking about alternatives, could those with experience give me your opinions on possible supplementation and/or cycles for someone of my stature. P.S. I am not necessairly looking for "mainstream" supp's, e.g. those by muscletech, eas, etc.

thanks

 

[xaneimas]

Oh and I'm looking to continue to bulk not cut.

 

[CDB]

Creatine is really the only thing you need to be bothering with at this point in my opinion, as far as supplements go. Your routine may be at issue, but if it's worked before there's not much reason why it might not be working now. Even the most half assed routine, if done with dedication, will produce some results if a person's diet is good. Generally if you're not gaining weight you're not eating enough. If you were eating enough you'd still be gaining weight, if not muscle.

Your calories seem pretty high to say the least for someone your size. If you have a high level of physical exertion this could explain that, so look to the rest of your life and see if you are burning those extra calories and need more to be in a caloric surplus. It'd probably help if you posted your diet here as well, as you could be miscalculating the total kCal content of what you're eating. If not, you'd probably at least get some advice on your macro breakdown.

Also remember, as you gain weight from working out your maintenance calories will go up. So if your maintenance kCal is say 2500, and you're eating 3000 a day and everything goes perfectly, you'll eventually gain enough muscle that 3000 will be your new maintenance, and you won't grow on that anymore. That 30 lbs of extra muscle would at a guess bump your maintenance kCal up 400-500 a day. If you are a true hard gainer, more than that even.

 

[xaneimas]

Creatine is really the only thing you need to be bothering with at this point in my opinion, as far as supplements go. Your routine may be at issue, but if it's worked before there's not much reason why it might not be working now. Even the most half assed routine, if done with dedication, will produce some results if a person's diet is good. Generally if you're not gaining weight you're not eating enough. If you were eating enough you'd still be gaining weight, if not muscle.

Your calories seem pretty high to say the least for someone your size. If you have a high level of physical exertion this could explain that, so look to the rest of your life and see if you are burning those extra calories and need more to be in a caloric surplus. It'd probably help if you posted your diet here as well, as you could be miscalculating the total kCal content of what you're eating. If not, you'd probably at least get some advice on your macro breakdown.

Also remember, as you gain weight from working out your maintenance calories will go up. So if your maintenance kCal is say 2500, and you're eating 3000 a day and everything goes perfectly, you'll eventually gain enough muscle that 3000 will be your new maintenance, and you won't grow on that anymore. That 30 lbs of extra muscle would at a guess bump your maintenance kCal up 400-500 a day. If you are a true hard gainer, more than that even.

i have been on and off creatine for years and i did not notice the slightest bit of difference while on so Im not bothering with creatine anymore. As far as my diet goes I know 5000-5500 calories seems as though it is a lot and I had a huge thread on another forum about this same topic but that is what my body requires @ 180 to produce results. I started somewhere in the upper 3000's when i started @ 154. As far as daily life is concerned i really dont do that much. I walk a bit at work and stock 50lb bags every now and then. Other then that I am fairly sedentary (because i dont want to burn additional calories). I use a program called program tracker to calculate my daily caloric intake which came free with a site i registered with. Im not sure if anyone uses that here. While I am highly certain that the calculations are correct I do welcome any input that may help me. What would be the easiest way to post the diet?

 

[CDB]

i have been on and off creatine for years and i did not notice the slightest bit of difference while on so Im not bothering with creatine anymore. As far as my diet goes I know 5000-5500 calories seems as though it is a lot and I had a huge thread on another forum about this same topic but that is what my body requires @ 180 to produce results. I started somewhere in the upper 3000's when i started @ 154. As far as daily life is concerned i really dont do that much. I walk a bit at work and stock 50lb bags every now and then. Other then that I am fairly sedentary (because i dont want to burn additional calories). I use a program called program tracker to calculate my daily caloric intake which came free with a site i registered with. Im not sure if anyone uses that here. While I am highly certain that the calculations are correct I do welcome any input that may help me. What would be the easiest way to post the diet?

What do you eat and when is the easiest breakdown. If you've got portions and calorie values, list them right next to the food. My daily diet on weekdays for example:

Food - Protein gm/Carb gm/F gm - kCal
Morking Shake - 53/52/14 - ~550

Meal 1 - 81/39/3 - ~500

Meal 2 - 81/39/3 - ~500

Meal 3 - 81/10/1 - ~380

etc.

Right now I'm trying to lose so my calories are lower, but you get the ideal. List the actual food if you want, it may help to notice if something is being calculated incorrectly.

 

[xaneimas]

What do you eat and when is the easiest breakdown. If you've got portions and calorie values, list them right next to the food. My daily diet on weekdays for example:

Food - Protein gm/Carb gm/F gm - kCal
Morking Shake - 53/52/14 - ~550

Meal 1 - 81/39/3 - ~500

Meal 2 - 81/39/3 - ~500

Meal 3 - 81/10/1 - ~380

etc.


Right now I'm trying to lose so my calories are lower, but you get the ideal. List the actual food if you want, it may help to notice if something is being calculated incorrectly.

Meal 1 - 68.5/106.5/42.75 ~ 1090
Meal 2 - 58/48/40.5 ~ 790
Meal 3 (pre-workout) 68/109/8.25 ~ 790
Meal 4 (post workout) 64/182/3 ~ 1030
Meal 5 - 60/82/5 ~ 620
Meal 6 - 32/12/46 ~ 598

This diet is based on a 30/40/30 diet...carbs run a little higher though. Protein sources are myoplex, chicken, muscle milk, isopure. Carbs bagel, pasta, brown rice, kidney beans, 2% milk. Fat is from flaxseed oil/milk/muscle milk. This is what my diet has consisted of the whole time.

 

[CDB]

Meal 1 - 68.5/106.5/42.75 ~ 1090
Meal 2 - 58/48/40.5 ~ 790
Meal 3 (pre-workout) 68/109/8.25 ~ 790
Meal 4 (post workout) 64/182/3 ~ 1030
Meal 5 - 60/82/5 ~ 620
Meal 6 - 32/12/46 ~ 598

This diet is based on a 30/40/30 diet...carbs run a little higher though. Protein sources are myoplex, chicken, muscle milk, isopure. Carbs bagel, pasta, brown rice, kidney beans, 2% milk. Fat is from flaxseed oil/milk/muscle milk. This is what my diet has consisted of the whole time.

At guess, off thr cuff, runt he calories again because this all adds up to under 5000 to start. I'd also recommend getting less protein from artificial sources, go for regular food where ever possible. As far as weight goes are you gaining anything, even fat? If not, easiest answer would be to double up one of the meals. That'd give you an extra 500-1000 kCal per day to work with and it's easy to work into an existing plan.

 

[xaneimas]

At guess, off thr cuff, runt he calories again because this all adds up to under 5000 to start. I'd also recommend getting less protein from artificial sources, go for regular food where ever possible. As far as weight goes are you gaining anything, even fat? If not, easiest answer would be to double up one of the meals. That'd give you an extra 500-1000 kCal per day to work with and it's easy to work into an existing plan.

Your right it comes out to 4918 or something right around there but with my pasta i dont include the little bit of sauce/parm cheese i use. So adding that in, it comes out a little over 5000. I am constantly on the go with work/school and the such so each day i do 3 shakes and 3 solid meals. It's about the best that i can do. Besides its basically to the point where i cant cram any more food down my throat. I have gained weight but i seemed to have topped off at right around 185 (not putting on any fat) and for about 2-3 months ive been going back and forth between 183-185. All of this appears to lead to more calories/day.

 

[Rodja]

Eat more whole foods and cut a little fat from your diet so your GI is not under so much stress. Also, by cutting the fat, your appetite should increase b/c your foods do not take as long to breakdown. Focus on a clean, low GI diet emphasizing whole grains, lean proteins, and fruits/veggies.

 

[CDB]

Eat more whole foods and cut a little fat from your diet so your GI is not under so much stress. Also, by cutting the fat, your appetite should increase b/c your foods do not take as long to breakdown. Focus on a clean, low GI diet emphasizing whole grains, lean proteins, and fruits/veggies.

Good points. Cannd food at Costco is a good place to start. Canned chicken and tune there are very cheap. One can and a Swiss army knife and you're ready to eat anywhere, so long as you can drain the chicken/tuna. Try adding a yam or potato or two during the day if you haven't already. Cheap and easy.

Also, if you're doing any cardio, cut it down or stop for a while even, if need be.

 

[CDONDICI]

i have been on and off creatine for years and i did not notice the slightest bit of difference while on so Im not bothering with creatine anymore.

Creatine mono?

Some people have trouble absorbing creatine mono, have you tried CEE?

 

[xaneimas]

Haha I actually work at Costco. Funny you said that. I wore out eating tuna out of the can but i do want to find some quick healthy recipes to spice the stuff up a bit. So if you guys know any then let me know. I may take your advice and lower the fat intake and make changes in the diet to see if that has any effect....its worth a shot right.

Your totally right about the creatine mono many ppl do but i think its because its so easily digested which leaves very little to absorb. I havent tried CEE yet as i am waiting to see what results my brother gets from it. Have any of you tried this product and did you see any gains?

Also does anyone have any info or opinions on SDI labs and their products/cycles?

 

[Viking22]

Cytogainer

 

[CDB]

Haha I actually work at Costco. Funny you said that. I wore out eating tuna out of the can but i do want to find some quick healthy recipes to spice the stuff up a bit. So if you guys know any then let me know.

Check the recipes section for further advice, but mine is simple: hot sauce. It comes in a multitude of flavors and most of the time doesn't need to be refridgerated. Hot sauce is the healthy alternative to sugar. By that I mean it can make anything taste good if you add enough of it, just like sugar, but it has negligible caloric content. Since you're trying to add calories you can even use some of the hot sauces that do have calorie content. I recommend a diced yam, tuna or canned chicken, liberal doses of Louisianna XX, Pepperheads brnd, and go to work.

 

[xaneimas]

Cytogainer

Thanks...i just bought some.

 

[young_squatter]

Well other then the basics Whey Protein, Creatine, Fish Oil, Multivitamin. I recommend some BCAA'S, they will help you recover from your workouts and also increase your recovery rate. You can go with Bulk BCAA but the taste is horrible so I wouldnt recommend it. I recommend scivation xtend, It taste great and works great. I recommend you sip on 3 servings pre/during/post workout. Here is some more good info on xtend
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/scivation/38452-x-tend-faq-beast.html

 

[CDB]

I would say stay away from further supplementation with anything until you hit a calorie level you start growing at again. Supplements are just that, supplements. They can't replace your diet, and in the end I wouldn't say they should be corner stones of them either. You should be doing all you can to hit your caloric needs using real food. Use the shakes for around workout time when the faster absorbed carbs and protein are useful.

 

[xaneimas]

I would say stay away from further supplementation with anything until you hit a calorie level you start growing at again. Supplements are just that, supplements. They can't replace your diet, and in the end I wouldn't say they should be corner stones of them either. You should be doing all you can to hit your caloric needs using real food. Use the shakes for around workout time when the faster absorbed carbs and protein are useful.

Totally true statement. Im actually remodifying my diet this weekend to see if i can start gaining again. As far as shakes pre workout i cant do because they make me feel sick to my stomach which obviously hurts the intesity of my workout.

 

[CDB]

Totally true statement. Im actually remodifying my diet this weekend to see if i can start gaining again. As far as shakes pre workout i cant do because they make me feel sick to my stomach which obviously hurts the intesity of my workout.

That's where some supplements aimed at digestion improvement might help. Enzymes, that curcurmen stuff someone else posted recently might help, has a host of other possible health benefits and is pretty cheap.

When you're restructuring, when it comes to carbs pay close attention to calorie dense foods. A lot of calories per serving/gram is what you're after to get the caloric levels you apparently need.

 

[IronMarc]

I was just wondering, are you under a lot of stress from school or anything at all? If that's the case try taking some Cort-Bloc and see if you start to gain anything. It's a shot in the dark, but who knows.

 

[Rodja]

Totally true statement. Im actually remodifying my diet this weekend to see if i can start gaining again. As far as shakes pre workout i cant do because they make me feel sick to my stomach which obviously hurts the intesity of my workout.

Eat pineapple or papaya before a workout. The carbs help to keep glycogen high, but they also contain enzymes that help to breakdown protein, not to mention the Vit C, K, and fiber.

 

[xaneimas]

I was just wondering, are you under a lot of stress from school or anything at all? If that's the case try taking some Cort-Bloc and see if you start to gain anything. It's a shot in the dark, but who knows.

Come to think of it i would say im under a S*** load of stress. Between school, work, relationship, etc. That may be wreaking havoc on my cortisol levels. Do u know what that stuff runs??

 

[xaneimas]

Eat pineapple or papaya before a workout. The carbs help to keep glycogen high, but they also contain enzymes that help to breakdown protein, not to mention the Vit C, K, and fiber.

Very interesting...I never knew. How much pineapple would you suggest?

 

[IronMarc]

Unfortunately, I do not know much about cortisone blocking products, infact cort-bloc is the only one I have ever heard of and not sure what it goes for. Anyway, the company that makes it is called Musclelink, it's about $39.99 per bottle which contains 60 caps. It's on sale at wholesalesupplemenstore.com too, if you're under stress than it's something you should look into. If you don't mind spending the money it would definetly be worth a try.

 

[sns8778]

I just saw this thread. As far as cortisol blocking products, we have Reduce XT and DS has Lean Xtreme, which are both 7OH products.

That said, I think the best bet for you may still be do focus hard on diet and supplement wise, I would try CEE.

Alot of people use bulk CEE, but if you want to avoid the taste of CEE or the hassle of mixing it yourself, we make a product called Creatine E2 which contains 750 mg of CEE per capsule and is an excellent price for capped CEE. We also have the HPLC reports available.

 

[coffee4me]

If you're interested in lowering cortisol you might look into Oxymist offered by IBE (board sponsor). It isn't a cortisol blocker, it lowers stress, which in turn lowers cortisol. You'd want to google it probably and do a little (maybe a lot) research on it first. You might also wanna read this:

http://www.bodyofscience.com/issues/winter_2004/pdf/w2005_poliquin.pdf

 

[xaneimas]

If you're interested in lowering cortisol you might look into Oxymist offered by IBE (board sponsor). It isn't a cortisol blocker, it lowers stress, which in turn lowers cortisol. You'd want to google it probably and do a little (maybe a lot) research on it first. You might also wanna read this:

http://www.bodyofscience.com/issues/winter_2004/pdf/w2005_poliquin.pdf

Thanks for the advice. I'll be sure to look into it.

 

[JimmyG@21]

If you want to bulk up try the superdrol or masterdrol with a good protien. That will put muscle on you quick. And it will lower you body % while you gain weight. Try it out. Make sure you do you research, its hard on yout liver but nothing a little milk thistle cant help.